Responsibility falls on the player. Karen was in err.
An Upset Karen Corr at World 10 Ball Championship
- Thread starter michaelm
- Start date
What do you do if the player is deaf?
I thought Karen was wrong here. Yes it was noisy, yes the ref could speak louder, but I could hear it on the video over all the noise and I think she was closer to him than the mic was.
I think you have to be careful making rulings like this, as it opens the door to anyone saying they didnt hear the warning when they have a shot clock expire. Jay was in a tough spot on this one.
I thought Karen was wrong here. Yes it was noisy, yes the ref could speak louder, but I could hear it on the video over all the noise and I think she was closer to him than the mic was.
I think you have to be careful making rulings like this, as it opens the door to anyone saying they didnt hear the warning when they have a shot clock expire. Jay was in a tough spot on this one.
Well I can only say one thing about this whole thing , Insane .
The thing that bugs me about the call is that if this was not Karen Corr that was having this issue and instead some relatively unknown player without that kind of recognition and sponsership I am guessing the call would have went the other way and it would have simply been a foul.
Honestly, if this took place to Yu-Ram Cha she is not the type of personality to put up that huge of an arguement and thus she would have ended taking the foul instead of argueing about it, and this creates a disparity in the way rules are enforced that this sport does not need.
That said the shot clock in this whole tournament was absurdly short. If you are going to use shot clocks they need to be longer then the one in this tournament, I watched one match in that event and it was a gong show, both players were tilted off because of the absurd speed of play required with that shot clock. It became speed pool and a comedy of errors with all the ladies shooting vastly worse then they normally do because they hardly had enough time to aim or think.
Honestly, if this took place to Yu-Ram Cha she is not the type of personality to put up that huge of an arguement and thus she would have ended taking the foul instead of argueing about it, and this creates a disparity in the way rules are enforced that this sport does not need.
That said the shot clock in this whole tournament was absurdly short. If you are going to use shot clocks they need to be longer then the one in this tournament, I watched one match in that event and it was a gong show, both players were tilted off because of the absurd speed of play required with that shot clock. It became speed pool and a comedy of errors with all the ladies shooting vastly worse then they normally do because they hardly had enough time to aim or think.
Maybe they need corner lights.
I heard the ref say " No more" after KC called extension. The ref I think was not instructed to say " You are out of extensions " clearly if the player calls for one but is out of extensions.
Easiest way to do this is to give the players an extension card.
When they call for an extension, they place the card on the rail behind them or to the side.
After the shot, the ref takes the card.
I look forward to the thread where the referee forgets to return the card to the player next game, and then the player gets confused because they can't remember if they already used the card that game or not
I look forward to the thread where the referee forgets to return the card to the player next game, and then the player gets confused because they can't remember if they already used the card that game or not
What card? I dont' need no stinkin' card!!
I look forward to the thread where the referee forgets to return the card to the player next game, and then the player gets confused because they can't remember if they already used the card that game or not
True, but Im sure we can find something that may not work with any solution that is offered.
How about......
How about we just strap a dog collar around their thigh, with the shocker in it. When it hit's 10 seconds, it gives a beeping noise, much like the electric fence. If they call for an extension,time resets. If they have no extension, they get a shock. If they argue with a call, shock em' again. I bet they would keep track of how many extensions they have then.
How about we just strap a dog collar around their thigh, with the shocker in it. When it hit's 10 seconds, it gives a beeping noise, much like the electric fence. If they call for an extension,time resets. If they have no extension, they get a shock. If they argue with a call, shock em' again. I bet they would keep track of how many extensions they have then.
They ran into a similar problem at the last 3-cushion world championships. I think each player had two or three extensions in a set. There was an argument about the number of extensions taken. In the following matches, there were visible markers by the time clock that were taken down after each request.
Some players don't have pockets for cards.
I think setting up the rules for a shot clock is hard.
Karen called extension, one she didn't have. It is her job to keep up with it and it's not the job of the ref to remind her.
Although he probably should have made it clear she didn't have one, she screwed up, it's her fault, she forfeits the shot...
That's what I would have explained to her. I don't think this can be put on the ref because "i can't hear him even though he is directly behind me" is just not going to cut it.
Although he probably should have made it clear she didn't have one, she screwed up, it's her fault, she forfeits the shot...
That's what I would have explained to her. I don't think this can be put on the ref because "i can't hear him even though he is directly behind me" is just not going to cut it.
Here is the WPA regulation. I don't know if there were other details in force at the time. http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules#19
Professionalism?
Let's assume that it wasn't made clear at the players meeting that the players had to keep track of their own extension. So here is another topic for discussion.
What it professional of Karen to get in the face of the timekeeper instead of taking it up with the head referee? The timekeeper is only there to keep time and has no official authority to call fouls, and only communicates with the head ref.
ED
Let's assume that it wasn't made clear at the players meeting that the players had to keep track of their own extension. So here is another topic for discussion.
What it professional of Karen to get in the face of the timekeeper instead of taking it up with the head referee? The timekeeper is only there to keep time and has no official authority to call fouls, and only communicates with the head ref.
ED
I'm in the camp that feels it's the players responsibility to keep track of their use of extensions. But then again I also think it should be the player's responsibility to know how many fouls they are on, so what do I know? :wink:
I like the idea that if you are down on the shot before the ten second warning, then there is no warning as long as you are down. The moment you get up off the shot the 10 second warning is issued and you are now under the gun. I never liked in the Mosconi Cup how the 10 second buzzer goes off when a player is down, and maybe right in his final back or through stroke. It's sort of a shark.
Jay did very well under a difficult circumstance.
I like the idea that if you are down on the shot before the ten second warning, then there is no warning as long as you are down. The moment you get up off the shot the 10 second warning is issued and you are now under the gun. I never liked in the Mosconi Cup how the 10 second buzzer goes off when a player is down, and maybe right in his final back or through stroke. It's sort of a shark.
Jay did very well under a difficult circumstance.
Solution for future problems like this
Eliminate the shot clock!
Eliminate the shot clock!
Thanks for all the input on this one. It was one of the more difficult situations I have encountered, especially since I was not there when the problem arose. I was in another room where other matches were being played at the time. They came and got me and told me there was a problem on the TV table. I ran over there not knowing what was going on.
The first thing I did was ascertain who was involved in this situation. I wanted to only talk to them. That was when I asked Julie Kelly to please stay out of the discussion that was going on. She was only complicating things in my mind.
The time clock arrangement that was being used on the TV table was not the best in my opinion. It had been improvised. No where could a player see a clock or whether they had an extension remaining. And it was VERY crowded and noisy in there. This match was being played in the middle of a gigantic mall and there was a circus like atmosphere that only made things more hectic. In most major tournaments where matches are being televised and a shot clock is in use, both players can actually see a visible time clock and some indicator of their remaining extension. This was not the case here.
Secondly, I realized that this particular referee was normally a very quiet man who did not have a strong voice. He was a good referee but maybe not the best man in this situation. Sometimes situations arise that are not covered in any rule book. That is when you must make a decision that is in the best interests of the game and fair play. That is why I ultimately gave Karen ten seconds to shoot the shot.
The first thing I did was ascertain who was involved in this situation. I wanted to only talk to them. That was when I asked Julie Kelly to please stay out of the discussion that was going on. She was only complicating things in my mind.
The time clock arrangement that was being used on the TV table was not the best in my opinion. It had been improvised. No where could a player see a clock or whether they had an extension remaining. And it was VERY crowded and noisy in there. This match was being played in the middle of a gigantic mall and there was a circus like atmosphere that only made things more hectic. In most major tournaments where matches are being televised and a shot clock is in use, both players can actually see a visible time clock and some indicator of their remaining extension. This was not the case here.
Secondly, I realized that this particular referee was normally a very quiet man who did not have a strong voice. He was a good referee but maybe not the best man in this situation. Sometimes situations arise that are not covered in any rule book. That is when you must make a decision that is in the best interests of the game and fair play. That is why I ultimately gave Karen ten seconds to shoot the shot.
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