And Then There Were None

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Let's make a litle list WHY poolrooms can't make a good profit anymore. By the way I owned a room for eight years in NY (granted it was in the 1960's-1970's) and about ten other types of busineses. So I know a little about it.

1) Rent- sq ft are too high in good locations. Seven foot Diamonds would help, when your talking 10 nine footers or more you need eoo much space=$$.

2) So many other things to do now that are a LOT easier than pool.

3) Smoking bans.
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4) People are cutting back on their entertainment dollar=less pool

Those are my top three. Will you all add your reasons you feel they can't make it anymore? In one day this thread will prove beyond a doubt that poolrooms are in big, big trouble. Thank you. Johnnyt
 
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With the economy the way it is, the only place people can cut back is in the entertainment dept. Unfortunately pool is not a necessity, so most people play less.:(
 
Tell me about it. In my travels, I have grabbed the phone book to find an address of a room, drive all over town to find it, only to find a "now leasing" sign. Just this weekend in Salt Lake City... From what I heard, a pool room was open for 4 months... All the guys played there, and then it closed. wow...

My favorite thing though, is grabbing the phone book, and the billiard page is already ripped out.. I have to smile.
 
Johnnyt said:
Let's make a litle list WHY poolrooms can't make a good profit anymore. By the way I owned a room for eight years in NY (granted it was in the 1960's-1970's) and about ten other types of busineses. So I know a little about it.

1) Rent- sq ft are too high in good locations. Seven foot Diamonds would help, when your talking 10 nine footers or more you need eoo much space=$$.

2) So many other things to do now that are a LOT easier than pool.

3) Smoking bans.
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4) People are cutting back on their entertainment dollar=less pool

Those are my top three. Will you all add your reasons you feel they can't make it anymore? In one day this thread will prove beyond a doubt that poolrooms are in big, big trouble. Thank you. Johnnyt
I don't know how many responses your going to get here. Not because it's not a good subject for a thread, but because you've already pretty much nailed it with your list of reasons.

FWIW, if they were going to be listed in order of importance, I would put your # 4 at #2 and your #2 at #4.
 
M HOUSE said:
I don't know how many responses your going to get here. Not because it's not a good subject for a thread, but because you've already pretty much nailed it with your list of reasons.

FWIW, if they were going to be listed in order of importance, I would put your # 4 at #2 and your #2 at #4.

Yeah I agree but I'm just adding them as they answer. Johnnyt thread doesn't look like it's going anywhere anyhow.
 
Johhnyt, I agree with 1 and 2 but disagree with 3.

If pool is going to have any chance in surviving on this continent we need to look what we want the future of pool to be and how to get there. Pool has been looked at by most as smokey bars/hustling/beer drinkers and drugs. That’s an image that needs to be killed.

I think we want pool to be looked at as more of a sport/competition/fun game for people to enjoy.

No parent in their right mind is going to sent their young daughter/boy to a smokey filled *bar* to play pool as a sporting activity. And young kids are the future of this sport. Getting the kids out gets the parents out – that equals money: drinks, food ect ect….

That’s a change that needs to be worked on over years, not days. Building that image and atmosphere isn’t going to be easy but it’s the only chance to make our sport truly grow.

Junior leagues, junior tournaments and promotion is what we desperately need more of.

In my area there is no smoking. On league nights/days our pool room is packed. Parents bring out their 1 and 2 years olds and both mom and dad play/babysit. Single moms bring out their 12 and 13 years olds and play on the same team. Think that single mom is gonna come out if she’s constantly being hit on by some drunk with a smoke hanging out of his mouth and some other guys trying to see her kid dope.

Mabey if we can turn pool into a sport then mabey we can find new ways to generate income for pool halls….ie memberships ect…
 
Harley316 said:
Johhnyt, I agree with 1 and 2 but disagree with 3.

If pool is going to have any chance in surviving on this continent we need to look what we want the future of pool to be and how to get there. Pool has been looked at by most as smokey bars/hustling/beer drinkers and drugs. That?s an image that needs to be killed.

I think we want pool to be looked at as more of a sport/competition/fun game for people to enjoy.

No parent in their right mind is going to sent their young daughter/boy to a smokey filled *bar* to play pool as a sporting activity. And young kids are the future of this sport. Getting the kids out gets the parents out ? that equals money: drinks, food ect ect?.

That?s a change that needs to be worked on over years, not days. Building that image and atmosphere isn?t going to be easy but it?s the only chance to make our sport truly grow.

Junior leagues, junior tournaments and promotion is what we desperately need more of.

In my area there is no smoking. On league nights/days our pool room is packed. Parents bring out their 1 and 2 years olds and both mom and dad play/babysit. Single moms bring out their 12 and 13 years olds and play on the same team. Think that single mom is gonna come out if she?s constantly being hit on by some drunk with a smoke hanging out of his mouth and some other guys trying to see her kid dope.

Mabey if we can turn pool into a sport then mabey we can find new ways to generate income for pool halls?.ie memberships ect?

I'm not saying smoking is right. The fact is poolrooms that had smoking and now can't have lost over 30% of their business on average. This is a thread of things that have hurt poolrooms to the point we're at today...not a debate on smoking. Johnnyt
 
#5- Takes an act of God just to get a license for a pool room, and thats if you can even get a landlord to talk to you at all. This a bigger reason than most people think that there are not more rooms.
 
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#6 - bigger houses + better access to higher quality pool tables = more basement pool tables
 
selftaut said:
#5- Takes an act of God just to get a license for a pool room.

Yes your right. I tried to open one in the Oldsmar area of Florida about 20 years ago and had gotten a nice location in a brand new strip-mall, ordered the tables and the landlord said no beer or wine as I had the pen in hand to sign the lease.

I also tried to get a room in Tampa about 7 years ago only to find the only places that would let me in were not good locations. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
Yes your right. I tried to open one in the Oldsmar area of Florida about 20 years ago and had gotten a nice location in a brand new strip-mall, ordered the tables and the landlord said no beer or wine as I had the pen in hand to sign the lease.

I also tried to get a room in Tampa about 7 years ago only to find the only places that would let me in were not good locations. Johnnyt

Unfortunately Johhny, thats a common story. The landlords that are willing to talk on a proposal are usually the desperite landlords. And to jump through the hoops getting licensed is an unbelievable chore, just to get turned down most the time.
 
If we think pool is in bad shape now, just wait until there are none. Think about how difficult it will be to grow are sport with nowhere to play. If pool were a patient in the hospital, the doctor would be taking the family in the hall and informing them that they should be making funeral preparations about now.

Sad, very sad.
 
i hope not

i actually think when the economy is bad that playing pool and drinking is the one thing that survives because its cheap to do.
looking back over history has shown that through depressions world wars etc pool has survived. polrooms can and do make profit i know plenty of roomowners doing fine.
you have to know what your doing,have good local,treat customers well and have the right rent but its more than doable.just my opinion as im not a roomowner.
 
To many places are pricing themselves out of business.

Many years ago I met a room owner that said "It's about quarters." I said what ? he said, "Quarters, as in 1 quarter dollar. That's all I want to profit fom everyone that walks in the doors of my place everytime they come here."

I recently noticed that he has lowered his prices even further to attract more customers instead of raising them. He said his place is cheaper than anywhere else in the city to play, eat and drink and because of this his business and profits have increased. He now not only owns all of his equiptment in the pool room but the strip mall it is located in as well.

He was able to do this by understanding the needs of his current and potential customers.

Mj
 
For me, the closest table is at the local bar, about 2 mile away. The closest pool hall is 18 mile away.With gas at 4 a gal I don't travel the 18 miles as much as I used to. The 2 mile option is more affordable at the moment. Now if I had a car that did 80 mpg, the 18 mile drive would not be so bad. A friend has just got a nice table at his house, a small group get invited quite often. I prefer that, to the bar and poolhall where I have a choice, play pool and put up with the smoke , or stay away. Now I get to play , have fun with friends and don't have the alergy problems.For me who gets ill with smoke, I am effected. I don't have an axe to grind with smokers, it is their choice and right. I just wish that places that allow people to smoke would put in air scrubbers so that others who have problems from smoke can enjoy the atmosphere of being there.I know that is a cost, and these days it is hard to make money as it is without that added expense. But for nonsmkers in Pa the choices are very limited to stay at home or put up with it.
I know that NewJersey has basically smoke free enviroment. Are there any or many poolhalls still around ?
It is surprising as to the number of new homes in our area, having finished basements with 8 or 9 foot tables. That has got to have an impact on the number of people going to poolhalls.
 
We can sit around and blame it on smoking bans until we feel better. I think that is complete and total BS - I have always believed that since I started hearing that from everybody. No matter what the individual circumstances - the smoking ban was probably an end factor, combined with many other factors that were preexisting.

Take a hard look at the the state of the billiards industry. Nobody is making a lot of money right now. It's slow for everybody and nobody is walking around jumping for joy with big bags of cash in their hands. Not cue makers, not table manufacturers, not billiard supply companies - its slow for everybody - including instructors (like myself) and and including ROOM OWNERS.

When times are tough, you have to adjust. Some businesses are not going to survive the adjustment. That's just how it is. These adjustments I am referring to include smoking bans, the screwed up economy, etc.

As a business owner, when faced with these adversities you have to dig in and work twice as hard. Some of the rooms that are closing fought and fought until their arms got tired. Then there came a round where they couldn't answer the bell.

It happens.

I saw rooms survive the smoking bans when they were passed in El Paso. There was an adjustment period, but after a while the smoking laws became the norm. The businesses that had a plan to survive that adjustment are still around. The businesses that have a plan to survive the recent economy will still be around this time next year.

I believe that the days of flat rate pool and free pool are numbered. Not many people are willing (or able) to pay $10 an hour to play pool when gas is $4.00 a gallon.

As fuel costs rise, so does the cost of shipping supplies, shipping pool tables, etc. Everything in your pool hall will become more and more expensive.

Instead of looking at smoking bans and all this stuff that is closing the pool halls - try to find something that you can do in your area to bring positive attention to your pool hall. Do a charity fund raiser or something that will generate local POSITIVE interest in the game. Make people curious. Show everybody exactly what it was that attracted you to the game.

Here in Orlando, the only time I hear about pool in the news is when there is a shooting near a pool hall. The shooting might have occurred 3 businesses down the block, but because they see a pool hall the story gets attached to pool - and people in turn avoid that business like the plague.

That has to change or we will see more rooms closing.

As an instructor, I am having to adjust as well and try to find ways to keep the students that I have while attracting others. It's nonstop - some days I find myself working from 6AM til midnight - working on instructional material, giving classes, working with amateur players, pro players, making deals with tour promoters to give clinics. If I didn't work those crazy hours I wouldn't be surviving right now. It's a necessary evil. I'm working my ass off and my ultimate goal is to be able to afford to take a week off to schedule a trip to see my 7 year old daughter in NYC this summer. It doesn't look like its going to happen.
 
OK, let's look at things

To get smoking out of the way first, I have seen multiple times on this forum that the business a particular room lost was the underage smokers that hung out there. If the smoking ban puts someone out of business because of that, I truly say good riddance!

Now we come to the heart of the matter. Location and rent. It is very hard to put together a nice room in a good location. First, the rent and regulations make it tough. Then it is hard to interest the constant influx of new customers needed for any business to flourish. You will always lose a certain number of your old customers. New ones have to come in to not only replace them but to meet your ever increasing costs. Pool isn't flashy or gaudy, and it takes real time and effort to learn. Someone has to be willing to put up with the frustration of losing fairly regularly for months or years while learning. Few of the up and comers in today's instant society want to go through that.

The major things killing pool? Rising costs per square foot and TV, video games, and the poker fad. Also legalized gambling. People seem to have more faith in luck than skill. I favor the nine foot tables and liked the ten footers and snooker tables however I think that the future of pool is seven foot or even smaller tables. The people that play pool for a cheap outing don't seem tolerant of price increases and overhead is only going up. The only option seems to maximize the use of square footage in pool halls. Food, alcohol, video poker, and other more space intensive things can help the bottom line but at some point you look around and realize it isn't really a pool hall anymore.

The sad truth is that almost the only pool halls in a good position are those that are either stand alone or own the entire building they are in and have everything paid for. Then they have to be in a good location with basically a good neighborhood grown up around them. The owner had to make good choices decades ago. Then they have to keep things up and nice looking, keeping up with current trends while not annoying older customers. One of the toughest gigs in the business world and only destined to get tougher from the looks of things. Looking at the decline of pool in the last forty years I'm skeptical that it will exist as a commercial venture in another forty.

Hu
 
Josh Palmer said:
Tell me about it. In my travels, I have grabbed the phone book to find an address of a room, drive all over town to find it, only to find a "now leasing" sign. Just this weekend in Salt Lake City... From what I heard, a pool room was open for 4 months... All the guys played there, and then it closed. wow...

My favorite thing though, is grabbing the phone book, and the billiard page is already ripped out.. I have to smile.

You can thank me for that in several cities;) ;)

-don
 
john schmidt said:
i actually think when the economy is bad that playing pool and drinking is the one thing that survives because its cheap to do.


Good call John and that could be the problem because bar box pool has caught on big, and more and more bars are putting in more than one bar box and some are holding tournaments, and a lot of the bar patrons who probably were never really into pool are getting acquainted with it via bar box , so why go to a poool hall when you can drink have a good time etc and play a few games and gamble too.
 
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