Another tip question

[Train1077]

Sorry to start another thread about tips, BUT... I have googled both here and other places,
and all threads I find is where people state what they like and don't like. I can't find any explanations.

I am curious if there is any tested information about tips.

How does the hardness affect the play, precision, deflection, squirt, follow, draw, english etc...

Some say soft grabs the ball, more surface touches the ball, but power is lost. But more contact area
must grab the ball more and make a better sweet spot, but then again more contact area is able to push
the cue ball more out of the the way when using english... Then just the opposite with hard tips...

I NEED FACTS :smile:


I am not really interested in personal opinions or brands. I found about a trilion threads about that with out looking

 

[RBC]

Some say soft grabs the ball, more surface touches the ball, but power is lost. But more contact area
must grab the ball more and make a better sweet spot, but then again more contact area is able to push
the cue ball more out of the the way when using english

Something to keep in mind is that once the tip is in loaded contact with the ball, there is virtually zero slippage. So, all tips actually grip the cue ball the same.


Royce

 

[Poolplaya9]

A lot of what you are looking for can be found here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html

Even many of the pros and instructors have beliefs that fly in the face of the facts but you can be assured that Dr Dave is strictly one of the facts guys. Peruse his whole site(s) some time for a plethora of great factual info:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/

Another facts guy is Bob Jewett:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm
http://www.sfbilliards.com/

Between the two you can find out the facts for anything pool related for which the facts can and have been determined.

 

[nobcitypool]

It is a subjective subject. If it is that important to you, but half a dozen or more tips and try them. The majority of the science I've read on tips says there is very little variation in the actual playability. It is more about feel. I settled on the Ki-Tech tips because they feel good, stay consistent and don't mushroom. As far as playability goes, I couldn't tell any difference between the Ki-Tech, ultra skins, Kamui, Le Pro or any other tip I ever used.

 

[RBC]

Some say soft grabs the ball, more surface touches the ball, but power is lost. But more contact area
must grab the ball more and make a better sweet spot, but then again more contact area is able to push
the cue ball more out of the the way when using english

Something to keep in mind is that once the tip is in loaded contact with the ball, there is virtually zero slippage. So, all tips actually grip the cue ball the same.


Royce

 

[bbb]

A lot of what you are looking for can be found here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html

Even many of the pros and instructors have beliefs that fly in the face of the facts but you can be assured that Dr Dave is strictly one of the facts guys. Peruse his whole site(s) some time for a plethora of great factual info:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/

Another facts guy is Bob Jewett:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/miscellaneous.htm
http://www.sfbilliards.com/

Between the two you can find out the facts for anything pool related for which the facts can and have been determined.

GREAT ADVICE.....:thumbup:

 

[whammo57]

There is a lot of mis information and theories about tips.

A smaller diameter tip does not give you the ability to get more spin or english on the cue ball.

A softer tip does not give you the ability to get more spin or english on the cue ball.

I made a shaft for a local player with a 13.3mm tip. I put a hard tip on it.

He gets full table draw and unbelievable english.


It;s all in your stroke and not in the small tip or the soft tip..............


Kim

 

[Celophanewrap]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but the way I see your question is that you're asking about the science of the way something feels to someone. I thin k that tip makers strive for consistency, but rarely ever achieve it because there are so many different ways to measure density and make tips. LePro medium might be a little different from Kamui medium so to be consistent they offer a "range" of medium and when tip fall into that range they are sold as medium. After the first few of hours of play they may become super hard or mushroom out into something that might resemble mashed potatoes.
But no two players are the same or stroke the ball the same or apply chalk the same at the same time or even apply the same kind of chalk.
I think a good player, playing with the tip they are used to playing with, on a shaft they are used to playing with, on a cue they are used to playing with can make a cue ball do just about anything they want it to regarding precision and position, squirt, follow, draw, etc.
Even if you are able to find some test results, how likely do you think it would be that you could reproduce those results unless you that same person that got those results in the first place.
Pool, billiards in general has some scientific basis and I believe it helps if you understand some of the general principles of geometry and calculus, a little algebra, maybe some things about friction and drag, moisture, air density and climate, and chaos theory, but those things do very little to help you understand the heart and soul of a player and know what that player feels.
If you must, who is the guy that did the chalk test recently, Dr. Dave of Colorado State University? The amount of information he produces on pool related items is incredible and surly there is something in there about tips and the difference in densities.
I think the best you can hope for is consistency of opinion of experienced people. Then try several tips and pick the one that works best for your game

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Ooops. Double postages as par usual.

 

[Johnnyt]

A 25 cent Triangle works just as well as a $40 Caddy tip. It's a a mental thing and peer presure thing. I think most of us would gain a ball quicker if we never tried a marshmellow tip or a LD shaft. A good teacher and plenty of playing time is what's needed for most. Johnnyt

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

You needs facts eh.

Not trying to be a smart alec but, when it comes to cue tips, the best person to get the facts from is yourself.

Fer an instance, if you were to go to Meullers Pool and Darts, you could view their chart on tip hardness done with a Durometer.

You would see that what is one manufacturers Medium is anothers Med Hard or Hard rating.

Some Softs are a bit harder than others. Some will pack down more.

The opinions that you read can be subjective. What one person thinks is great, you may think, Ho Hum.

The best way and more expensive obviously is to set your mind on a tip that you want to try. Buy a Soft and or a Med.

Put them on and see how YOU think and feel. Then if you're not satisfied, try another Brand. Jot down some notes on your experience with them.

I am stuck on a couple of brands. That isn't to say that Talisman, Wizard, Everest and the rest aren't great tips.

Just a couple that I have been using for some time now and like for whatever reasons.

I think that reading Meullers Durometer chart is a good start for basic facts.

In the long run, your opinion on cue tips is the only one that counts.

BTW, if you don't already, it will be cheaper for you to learn how to hand tip your cue.

Then, your next thread can be, "What are the best tip tools to use for hand tipping".

OK, I was being a smart alec on that one.

PS - Dr. Dave's site that was linked is a wealth of info for you anyway.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but the way I see your question is that you're asking about the science of the way something feels to someone.

I read it exactly the opposite. He is saying he could care less about feel and other subjective matters of opinion and simply wants the facts and only the facts on any and all proven and measurable performance differences.

 

[Ak Guy]

Always searching

I don't believe there is a best tip, best shaft, or best cue. When tuned up I am probably a B level player if some one qualified to rate me played me for a few days and said so. Any way, I may have shot my best pool with a well worn Elk Master tip on a Meucci Sneaky Pete with a Black Dot shaft. That set up won't get many shouts of approval on this forum. I was also shooting lots of pool when using the Meucci and Elk Master tip, so that is the most important thing. Most of my playing these days is with my Diveney cue and Kamui Black Medium tips. If my memory serves me correctly on a Tar broadcast Efren said he "always uses a "Elk Master" and VanBoening uses a medium or hard Kamui Brown tip. So we have 2 of the worlds best players separated by many years using 2 very different types of tips while they show the world how pool can be played when you are really good at it. Also, Efren uses regular Maple shafts and on that Tar broadcast VanBoening said it was the smallest diameter tip he has ever seen. Any "good tip", and lots of them exist, will serve you well if you play often and develop good pool skills. I recently retired and I am buying a table soon and after I have played on it almost daily for a few hours and a few months the Diveney cue and Kamui Black Medium tip will be the best set up going, but only for me!

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

When I started, Way Back When, most or all production cues came with a Le Pro.

I am sure that is French for something but being from Canada, I can't figure it out.

When you needed a new tip, you took your cue in and asked for a new tip.

You got a Le Pro.

It wasn't until some time later, that I found out that there was more than one tip available.

Le Pros still aren't half bad either. If yer comparing them to single layer tips like Triangles and Elks.

 

[Tommy-D]

Only YOUR stroke can tell you what works best for you.

With my stroke,I was convinced for years I'd never use anything but the reddish-orange one piece Sumo water buffalo again. Most people think they are TOO HARD to play with.

I'm sure people still have some,but they are no longer available in quantity.

I liked the old Moori H before they went down hill. They were never too hard to play with.

I also liked the XH Talisman layered tips. They delaminated a lot during installation,so I quit using them. For some,they were too hard.

I tried the Kamui Black,and as good as they are,I can't tell any difference between them and the Ultra Skins. I'm currently using the blue HH on one of my ivory ferruled shafts,and a red H on the other.

They are NOT so hard they can't be played with,and if used enough they will mushroom a hair,but it's controllable and consistent. Tommy D.

 

[cubswin]

I honestly believe it is all about how you play. I know a guy that plays with a elk master and another that plays with a hard tip. Both can move the cue ball around the table just fine.

Myself, I like a harder tip because when I started playing that was what was available. Mostly lepro's and we'd cut them down a bit. I've played with sumo's, and like them. Currently I have a super pro on the cue, and it is a hard tip. If I had any I'd be playing with one of pooldawg's milk dud elk masters.

I have no science as to why I like hard tips, just do, it fits how I play. Pool isn't rocket science, too many people try to make it that.

 

[buckshotshoey]

For me....? I used to use a LePro. I started looking for something else when I was having to change them 4 times a year. Mushrooming and glazing were my issues. That and they would start out as med and end up as hard. If I were to go back to a single layer tip, I would probably try the Ki-Tec. Good reviews thus far.

 

[The Renfro]

There is a lot of mis information and theories about tips.

A smaller diameter tip does not give you the ability to get more spin or english on the cue ball.

A softer tip does not give you the ability to get more spin or english on the cue ball.

I made a shaft for a local player with a 13.3mm tip. I put a hard tip on it.

He gets full table draw and unbelievable english.


It;s all in your stroke and not in the small tip or the soft tip..............


Kim

And now we have more theories......

 

[The Renfro]

This is an analogy... And the best way I can usually get someone to understand spin/speed ratio... If you overthrow a curveball in baseball you don't get the ball to break.... Same thing with a tip... While at the same offset they may all get the same spin the tip will have more forward linear energy if the tip is harder or has a higher COR and by the time the spin takes you don't get the swerve aspect of the cueball travel.....

It's basically energy conservation... And to get both tips to react the same way for a given shot you would have to add speed to the soft to get the hard cueball paths... Taking speed off the hard tip may or may not be enough to get the hard to take the soft tips cueball path because you may not be able to drop the energy level enough.....

forever... "cueball/tip contact is only 1ms" has been held up like "wow that's really fast"... And at best you might get 3ms of contact... In pool.. Contact should be considered an eternity... because we only understand seconds... and going slower being rough action doesn't mean it doesn't matter.. Lets say contact is 1ms if we can get 3ms we are dealing with 300% improvement... Yeah well the human brain can't react to that..... Yeah well I can feel it when it happens and I can learn what to do to make it happen when I want... I can't make adjustments on the fly from feedback but if I need to stick to the cueball I know what to do......

All tips don't play the same and generate the same spin reactions at a given offset without speed adjustments... Find a tip that makes what happens in your mind happen on the table and then QUIT buying tips.. Mine or anyone elses...

Chris