APA should be Sanbagging inc. -

[btoneill]

Let's say you had two players raised (just for an example a 3 to a 4 and a 4 to a 5) while playing in the NTC. Most everyone who goes to Vegas knows in advance that they are going (there's some time from qualifying to actually going to Vegas)...so, they practice quite a bit more than they normally would. Is it really inconcievable that your 4 that got raised to a 5 might get raised twice (to a 6). Let's say he ONLY plays once a week and still wins a BIG percentage of his matches, but isn't very consistant. I can see how with some dedicated training for a BIG national event, he may be able to focus a bit more and "appear" to have been bagging all year as well.....I dunno, there are to many variables to just immediately cry CHEATER when someone plays really well (even if for just one match).

That's where one of the problems comes in... If you read the rules you are supposed to play at the level you are even if the score sheet shows a lower level. If your players have been practicing and your 4 plays like a 5, it's simple, you make sure in the tournament he plays all his/her matches as a 5. The problem is, almost no one does that. The team I played on last session in APA already had planned on if we made it to our city tournament that our 5 would be playing as a 6, and one of our two 4's would be playing as a 5 no matter what the score sheet said.

Brian

 

[trustyrusty]

that was one of the biggest detractors from our Vegas experience - worrying about raises!!! well, for our team that is, for me it was just WAY too much pool...lol

 

[pooltchr]

Brian is right. It's the captain's responsibility to make sure that all the players on that team are playing at their true handicap level. It's better to make the corrections yourself than to allow the APA to do it for you in the middle of competition.

It goes back to the same old thing. You can be honest, or you can try to cheat.

I'm amazed there are so many people with so little character!

Steve

 

[NewStroke]

Before I start my rant, the APA does have good people playing in it (people like JDB) and makes the league bearable. However, it is my belief that 80 to 85% of the people who's main skill is drinking beer. I find many of them sandbag and do other things to win, but what they fail to understand is that when it comes right down to it, their true skill is not enough to win when it counts.

I feel bad for that 80 to 85% because chances are most of them were given atomic wedgies and locked in lockers in high school and were never given the chance to win anything other a booger eating contest.

Just remember, before you begin putting down the APA, think about the above and just remember how lucky you are to be playing with real pool players.

 

[NewStroke]

Brian is right. It's the captain's responsibility to make sure that all the players on that team are playing at their true handicap level. It's better to make the corrections yourself than to allow the APA to do it for you in the middle of competition.

It goes back to the same old thing. You can be honest, or you can try to cheat.

I'm amazed there are so many people with so little character!

Steve

LOL, when I played in the APA, my team captain would yell at me for calling safety because the other team would mark a defensive shot.

 

[sfleinen]

APA's (Terry Bell's) video on properly recognizing/calling/marking defensive shots

LOL, when I played in the APA, my team captain would yell at me for calling safety because the other team would mark a defensive shot.

"Ah grasshoppa," that may change with the info Terry Bell put out in this video:

"Understanding defensive shots while playing pool in the APA Pool League"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wzfvYHM3CEs

-Sean

 

[btoneill]

LOL, when I played in the APA, my team captain would yell at me for calling safety because the other team would mark a defensive shot.

I call my safeties very loudly to make sure both captains hear it. I left a team I used to be on because of the captain. One night I walked in and she said "I can't have you play anyone but a 2 or a 3 tonight as I can't risk your handicap going up." and I turned around and walked out.

I'm now happily playing on a team in which the captain doesn't care if we go up or down in handicap. He doesn't care if we win or lose. He just cares that we played to the best of our abilities.

Brian

 

[trustyrusty]

Brian is right. It's the captain's responsibility to make sure that all the players on that team are playing at their true handicap level. It's better to make the corrections yourself than to allow the APA to do it for you in the middle of competition.

It goes back to the same old thing. You can be honest, or you can try to cheat.

I'm amazed there are so many people with so little character!

Steve

so now it's the captain's responsibility to decipher the super secret handicapping system of the APA to rate his players....or just guess. Too much hassle!!

and btw, I've started a thread before about "character" assasination and the APA - a 6 laying down to stay a 5 is no different than someone taking the 8 in gambling when they could give weight - and those guys are heralded in the poolworld. Whatta double standard - expected to be snow white pure in league, but ok to be a lockartist while gambling. I GIVE UP.

 

[btoneill]

so now it's the captain's responsibility to decipher the super secret handicapping system of the APA to rate his players....or just guess. Too much hassle!!

and btw, I've started a thread before about "character" assasination and the APA - a 6 laying down to stay a 5 is no different than someone taking the 8 in gambling when they could give weight - and those guys are heralded in the poolworld. Whatta double standard - expected to be snow white pure in league, but ok to be a lockartist while gambling. I GIVE UP.

In gambling you get to decide for yourself if you want to put up the money and play that person. In league you can only decide if you want to match up to that person if they put up their player first, if you go up blind you don't get to back out without forfeiting.

From my experience, most teams that sandbag, when they play their "sandbaggers" they don't put them up blind.

Brian

 

[dabarbr]

Brian is right. It's the captain's responsibility to make sure that all the players on that team are playing at their true handicap level. It's better to make the corrections yourself than to allow the APA to do it for you in the middle of competition.

It goes back to the same old thing. You can be honest, or you can try to cheat.

I'm amazed there are so many people with so little character!

Steve

Amazing indeed. These individuals that masquerade to a much lower level and do not have the fortitude to play at their true level will also steal from their kids piggy bank.

I saw a couple of skill level fours that played every bit six or seven level. Maybe they fooled some but they cannot fool a trained eye. These same sandbaggers are allowed to play the mini tournaments and win them at will with no one watching or keeping score. I'm just amazed at the price some people will sell their dignity and self respect.

 

[pooltchr]

so now it's the captain's responsibility to decipher the super secret handicapping system of the APA to rate his players....or just guess. Too much hassle!!

A good captain should know his players better than anyone in the APA office. The APA only has the info they get from scoresheets to determine handicaps. If the scoresheets aren't accurate, neither are the handicaps. So, yes, if the captain knows that one of his players is better than the handicap represents, it is his responsibility to fix it.

I have called the league operator and had them raise my own handicap when I didn't believe it was accurate.

Something I have noticed. The ones who complain the loudest about the APA are often the ones who are overly concerned with handicaps and manipulating the system. Those who just enjoy showing up and playing the game each week don't seem to complain too much. Just an observation.

Steve

 

[Brozif]

I've seen the APA work in different ways, but ultimately I believe it works how the league operator wants it to work!

I have seen a league operator let teams sandbag so that when they get to Vegas they do very well, and it makes his league and area look that much better.

I have also seen league operators that move players up manually so that a team breaks the "23" rule and in turn the team has to break off and create another team or teams. The league operator always blames it on the computer, and says that it's the computer that's raising the players, but it's too obvious to those of us that have been playing a while to see what is happening...the more teams, the more money in his/her pocket!!

Both of those methods ran by league operators hurt the APA and all it's players.

Of course there are teams out there that encourage the sandbagging, but in order for that to work, you have to have players with no self respect that do it and allow it to happen.

I have had players ask me if I wanted them to lose, and I always say NO! I will never ask any player to take a dive or miss on purpose. How can I ask you to pay your weekly dues and also ask you to lose? I pretend I'm gambling. It's my weekly dues versus my opponents weekly dues and whoever wins always feels better when they have to pay it. I know I hate paying those dues when I lose.

I love bringing in new players and introducing them to the game of pool. When they are new and raw and don't have a lot of skill, the handicap system of the APA helps even it out. Eventually thru playing, they will or should improve and eventually get to a point where they may have to start another team, therefore hopefully bringing in new players into our game.

The APA has it's good and bad points. If you are out there only to hang out with friends and have a good time and don't care whether you win or lose, then the APA is for you! But if you are ultra competitive, honest, want to win every time you play, and your goal is to get to Vegas, then I can guarantee you that you may run into a team that does not play fair and honest and you will most likely get run thru!!

I watched a 3 skill level from Illinois play against a 4 skill level from Kentucky in the finals one year. I was stunned to see how much cue ball control that 3 had. He had perfect form, a smooth stroke, and every time he missed, his opponent was magically hooked. It seemed very weird to me. I looked around and everyone there was in shock at what they were seeing. He had an easy one rail kick shot that would have guaranteed him a hit, but instead he went for the much more difficult 2 rail kick shot because it was the only way to kick at it and pocket the ball, without slopping it in. The team from Kentucky was supper pissed!! The 3 won the match 2-0 to clinch the win for his Illinois team. I NEVER save my lowest player to the end. Specially not if it's to win the team championship in Vegas!! Of course the team from Illinois just kept saying that he didn't win a single match before that one, but it was weird that if he hadn't won a single match up to that point. If that's the case why would you put him up as the final player when you still had room to play a 4, 5, or 6 in that last match and still stay within the "23" rule? The other team had similar skill levels remaining as well, so I thought it was very fishy that they chose a 3 for the anchor match!!

 

[Scott Lee]

Brian...Tap, tap, tap!:thumbup: I wish I could rep you, but it says I have to 'spread it around' some more first!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.colm

I call my safeties very loudly to make sure both captains hear it. I left a team I used to be on because of the captain. One night I walked in and she said "I can't have you play anyone but a 2 or a 3 tonight as I can't risk your handicap going up." and I turned around and walked out.

I'm now happily playing on a team in which the captain doesn't care if we go up or down in handicap. He doesn't care if we win or lose. He just cares that we played to the best of our abilities.
Brian

 

[rwh9]

I am so tired of people bashing the apa,i have never been asked to lose a match for the five years i have played.if your captain is letting this happen say something to the leauge operator and leave the apa alone.

 

[Scott Lee]

trustyrusty...Heralded by WHO? Certainly not me! I have just as much contempt for the sandbagging league player, as I do for the hustler, who pretends he/she cannot play, just to get a bet down. IMO, there are more of us who look down on the "hustling" image, than condone it (let alone "herald" it!). There was a recent thread about a hustler in Phoenix, who 'beat the system', and won the money a few times locally. But that guy was condemned by the local pool population (including the room owners), when it was discovered that he was a lying sack of sh*t!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

so now it's the captain's responsibility to decipher the super secret handicapping system of the APA to rate his players....or just guess. Too much hassle!!

and btw, I've started a thread before about "character" assasination and the APA - a 6 laying down to stay a 5 is no different than someone taking the 8 in gambling when they could give weight - and those guys are heralded in the poolworld. Whatta double standard - expected to be snow white pure in league, but ok to be a lockartist while gambling. I GIVE UP.

 

[Scott Lee]

Brozif...You make some great points in your post! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I've seen the APA work in different ways, but ultimately I believe it works how the league operator wants it to work!

I have seen a league operator let teams sandbag so that when they get to Vegas they do very well, and it makes his league and area look that much better.

I have also seen league operators that move players up manually so that a team breaks the "23" rule and in turn the team has to break off and create another team or teams. The league operator always blames it on the computer, and says that it's the computer that's raising the players, but it's too obvious to those of us that have been playing a while to see what is happening...the more teams, the more money in his/her pocket!!

Both of those methods ran by league operators hurt the APA and all it's players.

Of course there are teams out there that encourage the sandbagging, but in order for that to work, you have to have players with no self respect that do it and allow it to happen.

I have had players ask me if I wanted them to lose, and I always say NO! I will never ask any player to take a dive or miss on purpose. How can I ask you to pay your weekly dues and also ask you to lose? I pretend I'm gambling. It's my weekly dues versus my opponents weekly dues and whoever wins always feels better when they have to pay it. I know I hate paying those dues when I lose.

I love bringing in new players and introducing them to the game of pool. When they are new and raw and don't have a lot of skill, the handicap system of the APA helps even it out. Eventually thru playing, they will or should improve and eventually get to a point where they may have to start another team, therefore hopefully bringing in new players into our game.

The APA has it's good and bad points. If you are out there only to hang out with friends and have a good time and don't care whether you win or lose, then the APA is for you! But if you are ultra competitive, honest, want to win every time you play, and your goal is to get to Vegas, then I can guarantee you that you may run into a team that does not play fair and honest and you will most likely get run thru!!

I watched a 3 skill level from Illinois play against a 4 skill level from Kentucky in the finals one year. I was stunned to see how much cue ball control that 3 had. He had perfect form, a smooth stroke, and every time he missed, his opponent was magically hooked. It seemed very weird to me. I looked around and everyone there was in shock at what they were seeing. He had an easy one rail kick shot that would have guaranteed him a hit, but instead he went for the much more difficult 2 rail kick shot because it was the only way to kick at it and pocket the ball, without slopping it in. The team from Kentucky was supper pissed!! The 3 won the match 2-0 to clinch the win for his Illinois team. I NEVER save my lowest player to the end. Specially not if it's to win the team championship in Vegas!! Of course the team from Illinois just kept saying that he didn't win a single match before that one, but it was weird that if he hadn't won a single match up to that point. If that's the case why would you put him up as the final player when you still had room to play a 4, 5, or 6 in that last match and still stay within the "23" rule? The other team had similar skill levels remaining as well, so I thought it was very fishy that they chose a 3 for the anchor match!!

 

[Cory in DC]

Let's say you had two players raised (just for an example a 3 to a 4 and a 4 to a 5) while playing in the NTC. Most everyone who goes to Vegas knows in advance that they are going (there's some time from qualifying to actually going to Vegas)...so, they practice quite a bit more than they normally would. Is it really inconcievable that your 4 that got raised to a 5 might get raised twice (to a 6). Let's say he ONLY plays once a week and still wins a BIG percentage of his matches, but isn't very consistant. I can see how with some dedicated training for a BIG national event, he may be able to focus a bit more and "appear" to have been bagging all year as well.....I dunno, there are to many variables to just immediately cry CHEATER when someone plays really well (even if for just one match).

As I've always understood it, and I think there's an APA document that explains this somewhere, these rules are based on fractional handicaps and are applied to the whole team. So if you had two high 3s both go up to 4s, you might not be even close to hitting the "up 2" limit even though two players went up. You could also have three low 3s go up to high 3s and break the "up 2" limit.

For an individual player going up from, say, a high 4 to a low 6 wouldn't be an automatic DQ, because that could be just a 1.1 or 1.2 unit change in handicap, and the rule applies to a full 2 point change in handicap.

This is the only way to be fair. Otherwise, a low 4 that goes up to a high 5 could have a 1.9 unit skill change and not be DQ'd while the high 4 that goes up to a low 6 with a 1.2 unit skill change would be DQ'd. Both would be suspect and likely result in a watched player, as you would be talking about a player shooting a few matches that average more than one fewer inning per win. But I don't think they're automatic DQs.

Cory

 

[btoneill]

As I've always understood it, and I think there's an APA document that explains this somewhere, these rules are based on fractional handicaps and are applied to the whole team. So if you had two high 3s both go up to 4s, you might not be even close to hitting the "up 2" limit even though two players went up. You could also have three low 3s go up to high 3s and break the "up 2" limit.

For an individual player going up from, say, a high 4 to a low 6 wouldn't be an automatic DQ, because that could be just a 1.1 or 1.2 unit change in handicap, and the rule applies to a full 2 point change in handicap.

This is the only way to be fair. Otherwise, a low 4 that goes up to a high 5 could have a 1.9 unit skill change and not be DQ'd while the high 4 that goes up to a low 6 with a 1.2 unit skill change would be DQ'd. Both would be suspect and likely result in a watched player, as you would be talking about a player shooting a few matches and average more than one fewer inning per win. But I don't think they're automatic DQs.

Cory

Of course the APA won't tell you what your fraction is...

Brian

 

[Marcl3954]

Handicaps are great if done correctly

Obviously there is a flaw in the system.
Handicaps in both leagues and Tournaments can level the field if done correctly.
Handicaps need to be monitored by a experienced player.
Sandbagging needs stiffer penalties.
But I my case I'll just play my pool in places that offer a fair system.
Or where everyone plays even.

 

[Donny Wessels]

Consider the APA a social. There are some that ruin it for the majority, by doing the things you mentioned. So if you go into it for the social aspects, then you won't be disappointed. I am sure the cheating is a big part of any handicapped league, especially when the prize is large.

well put. I play apa.not because its the best, I like the people in my apa league.