APA should be Sanbagging inc. -

The handicap system dont work

The system doesnt work, regardless of who tries to manipulate it. Lets say I am a skill level 6 and you are a 4. Real numbers, not sandbag numbers, true handicaps. So I am a 6 and you are a 4. I dont give a rats ass about giving up 2 games. If I am really 2 skill levels better than you than I should have the advantage each and every time I get to the table against you. Everyone realizes that and thats why they try to sandbag.

The other question you have to ask yourself is; If the Equalizer handicap is really and truly fair, and it works, and a skill level 2 has just a good as a chance against a 7 as a skill level 6 does than why do they cap the handicaps at 23?

The system, while good in theory, is flawed and has 0 percent chance of working. Just my .02
 
Ball Banger said:
Ken

I think the question for some of us is, "Who Is Our Competition?" In my case My Competition is myself and I would rather play my best and lose to a better player, Than play my worst and beat a lesser player. But then I am a mature person with a comfortable income and I don't need to collect soda cans in order to buy lunch.

Now I am sure we all have Sandbagged at one time of an other. But to post on the World Wide Web that you are 7 who sandbags to a 3 is telling the world what a Jerk you can be, IMHO. We all like to win. But how we win is as important as winning.
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Ball Banger,

Im a very immature person and intend on staying that way. LOL

If you really want to see "Who Is Our Competition" then I suggest trying to gamble with them. What I have seen, and if you read my post as I intended it to be read, is the goal as I understand it, is to win a trip to Vegas. As others who has posted, the only way I have seen is to sandbag and win the trip.

I find maybe 5-10% (at best) of the league players gamble. IMO, it is those league players who gamble and try to improve are few and far between. On the other hand, I find 95% + complain about handicaps and sandbagging.

Finally ball banger if you would like to wager on my 1040 verses your 1040, you have action....:rolleyes:

Best of luck to you my friend,

Ken
 
I play in an house league that is very well run.
Of course it is individual an not a team. Handicaps are base on skill level and the league is broken down to A,B,c as well, Everyone has a great time.
The down side is there isn't a shot a Vegas at the end.
Every league I've played on that is in house, both teams and singles has had a similar format and Sandbagging hasn't been an issue.
Of course the teams were broken up A.B.C.D and set up by the owner or handicapped by them so they knew the players.
 
chris_williams said:
The system doesnt work, regardless of who tries to manipulate it. Lets say I am a skill level 6 and you are a 4. Real numbers, not sandbag numbers, true handicaps. So I am a 6 and you are a 4. I dont give a rats ass about giving up 2 games. If I am really 2 skill levels better than you than I should have the advantage each and every time I get to the table against you. Everyone realizes that and thats why they try to sandbag.

The other question you have to ask yourself is; If the Equalizer handicap is really and truly fair, and it works, and a skill level 2 has just a good as a chance against a 7 as a skill level 6 does than why do they cap the handicaps at 23?

The system, while good in theory, is flawed and has 0 percent chance of working. Just my .02
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I agree, the 6 is favored by quite a bit. (Like 90-10)

The big assumption is if the both are playing at the true skill level.

On the other hand, I think I was ranked pretty high in nine ball, and playing a two was really, really tough, because of the no pushout rule.

Ken
 
Playing your best

poolpro said:
Sandbagging is very real and irritating.

I play on an APA team. I am a SL7, I have been for quite some time. I try to win every match I play. When I first joined the league ( over 16 years ago) I naively thought you were supposed to try and play your best and try to win every match. I thought that raising your level of play and your handicap was something to be proud of. It shows that you have learned something and have gained some knowledge from all the time you have spent playing pool. Somewhere along the line I leaerned I was mistaken.

I still cringe when I hear somebody profess very proudly " I have been playing in the league for 5 years and I am still a 4!". I will usually tell them that they have wasted a lot of time and money then! So you are telling me you have played this game prob at least 2 times a week for 5 years, and you are still rated at a very average skill level, AND YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF?

I will tell you that sandbagging is very real, BUT the fact that there is so much sandbagging going on lets a lot of people kid themselves too! I know there are MANY players who DO try their best to win, but when thet lose , just PRETEND they were in fact sandbagging. They use it as a cop out for losing. " Well, I don't want to go up to a 4, so I lost". Bullshit. I know there are a lot of players who secretly would love to be a higher ranked handicap, but when thet fail they pass it off as dumping for their team. Ask all of these guys when the last time their team finished near the top in the last five years. When they stop and think about it, and realize the answer is never, ask them again why they are bothering to dump then? It is a convenient excuse for poor play, and not owning your performance. It is the same as the guy who always loses and acts as though he is hustling. Oddly enough you NEVER see this guy in action! The whole point of a hustle or sandbagging is a PAYOFF. If there is never a payoff, why are you going through all that trouble?


Just thought I would throw in another aspect of the sandbagging that bugs me a bit. I still just show up and play to win, even though it is frustrating to have to give up handicaps to evenly matched players. I still usually do just fine even with my handicap.

When I am having an off night, I usually joke that I am just worried about my handicap going up! :rolleyes:

Jw
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Great Response!
I feel you should always give your best game!
The only way to get better is to try to play better.
Otherwise the only one losing out is yourself!
Thanks!
 
I was asked to play in an APA league but I declined and this was a big reason. You drive several miles, waste an entire evening, and deliberately miss ball for what reason? To go to Las Vegas?

If I want to go to Vegas I can buy a plane ticket and skip all the nonsense.
 
poolpro said:
Okay, so the APA was designed with this in mind? Is this written in the handbook? It is NOT the sytem, it is the MANIPULATION of the system. It is also called cheating. You are proud of being a cheater, NOT a highly skilled player able to win without an unfair advantage.

Look, I get it. I am not unaware of how it works, believe me! I am saying I am not thrilled with how it is. And I will ask the same question of you HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOUR TEAM WON BY USING THIS MANIPULATION?

I think it is really funny when you would admit to cheating to gain an unfair advantage, and then admit that you have not even won while cheating! I hope that your team has won at least 4 out of 5 attempts. Otherwise you are saying you can't win even dishonestly!

I still just show up and have fun. I do not live and die on every match. I genuinely try to win all of my matches. I think I could lose an arm, and they will not lower my handicap. It is no longer an issue for me.

Want to know what else? My team is on FIRST PLACE by a pretty decent margin and 2 or 3 weeks left! What do you think of that? I have played in the finals many times with my real and deserved handicap.

I get the most enjoyment I can out of the leagues. I take it for what it is, good and bad. I enjoy a good performance. I play my game and let the chips fall where they may. I guess this makes me dumb. I am less than intelligent for wanting a fair match up and to enjoy winning a deserved match in an organized national league. I guess I will shut up now before I embarrass myself any further.:grin:


Jw
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The last 2 or 3 weeks and the playoffs are when the sandbaggers show their true speed and against your high rank and f*ck you over.
 
Ok.. as of right now the APA is simply a system that is designed to introduce as many people as possible to pool. It is a system that is designed to expand ( the 23 point rule ). It is a brilliant one at that.

If you play in the APA, it should be just out of sheer enjoyment. You already have slim chances of going anywhere regardless of whether you sandbag.

Even if you do try to manipulate it, the table still seems to balance games out regardless.

Currently, the APA is nothing but a practice instrument for me. I could care a less if i'm shooting in a game to get to vegas, it's still just that.

Btw, i'm a skill level 5 in 9 ball and have been so for my last 12 or so matches. I've won them all except the last one, most of them huge marigins to ( at least 15-5 splits )... so explain to me how i'm still a 5. Some say it could be my innings.. no it's the league operator if you ask me manipulating the system.

So I mean, what can you possibly do about that?
 
Da Bank said:
sanDbagging... sanbagging would be an activity without bags :)


this is the reality of APA and it is pathetic. I play one APA night because of a friendship I hold with my teammates. I embrace playing ANYONE in the APA in any setting and bashing their brains in on the table. I have no issues with sandbaggers anymore because I know they exist and I know they cannot be eliminated.

I have NO tolerance for sandbagging on my team and will ask players to leave if they want to do it. I keep my end of the deal clean and have been successful doing it.

Sandbaggers do not know how to win when it counts and they ultimately have no success in pool... they live their pathetic lives as losers and justify their losing in the hope that they can have an unfair advantage over another player. Pretty sad existence.
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I ask the same from my APA Team...Shoot to win and have fun. Isn't that what it's all about?
There are a few teams in our division who sandbag!! Everone knows who they are...And the teams who don't sandbag talk about the ones who do.

Heck, even the Division Rep Sandbags on the team he plays for. So how in the heck can you fight it if the ones in charge are doing it!??!

Money Talks and Bulls**t walks or something like that.
 
poolpro said:
Sandbagging is very real and irritating.

I play on an APA team. I am a SL7, I have been for quite some time. I try to win every match I play. When I first joined the league ( over 16 years ago) I naively thought you were supposed to try and play your best and try to win every match. I thought that raising your level of play and your handicap was something to be proud of. It shows that you have learned something and have gained some knowledge from all the time you have spent playing pool. Somewhere along the line I leaerned I was mistaken.

I still cringe when I hear somebody profess very proudly " I have been playing in the league for 5 years and I am still a 4!". I will usually tell them that they have wasted a lot of time and money then! So you are telling me you have played this game prob at least 2 times a week for 5 years, and you are still rated at a very average skill level, AND YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF?

I will tell you that sandbagging is very real, BUT the fact that there is so much sandbagging going on lets a lot of people kid themselves too! I know there are MANY players who DO try their best to win, but when thet lose , just PRETEND they were in fact sandbagging. They use it as a cop out for losing. " Well, I don't want to go up to a 4, so I lost". Bullshit. I know there are a lot of players who secretly would love to be a higher ranked handicap, but when thet fail they pass it off as dumping for their team. Ask all of these guys when the last time their team finished near the top in the last five years. When they stop and think about it, and realize the answer is never, ask them again why they are bothering to dump then? It is a convenient excuse for poor play, and not owning your performance. It is the same as the guy who always loses and acts as though he is hustling. Oddly enough you NEVER see this guy in action! The whole point of a hustle or sandbagging is a PAYOFF. If there is never a payoff, why are you going through all that trouble?


Just thought I would throw in another aspect of the sandbagging that bugs me a bit. I still just show up and play to win, even though it is frustrating to have to give up handicaps to evenly matched players. I still usually do just fine even with my handicap.

When I am having an off night, I usually joke that I am just worried about my handicap going up! :rolleyes:


Jw
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This is very common, probably more than most people realize. It's not really sandbagging, just making excuses. But I think more than half the talk of sandbagging is of this variety.

7s playing as 4s are rare and easily caught, which I've seen happen a number of times. Usually, enough local players also play local tourneys or match up and will spot these players. For the "let's play a 7 as a 4 strategy" to work, you need someone who never plays outside of their house and league night--not too common.

Of the true sandbagging I've seen, it's almost always a player that is ranked just one level below their true speed -- it's hard to tell sandbagging from a hot streak with that. But if they're only one rank low, they can be beaten. You just have to tighten up. And players like that will be walking a tight rope between stretching the game and getting the win. I.e., the sandbagging may well return the extra game that they get from sandbagging. (Even so, their team gets the advantage of making it easier to satisfy the 23 rule.)

Long story short, there's lots of sandbagging, but much less than everyone thinks. Also, mark safeties.

Cory
 
chris_williams said:
The system doesnt work, regardless of who tries to manipulate it. Lets say I am a skill level 6 and you are a 4. Real numbers, not sandbag numbers, true handicaps. So I am a 6 and you are a 4. I dont give a rats ass about giving up 2 games. If I am really 2 skill levels better than you than I should have the advantage each and every time I get to the table against you. Everyone realizes that and thats why they try to sandbag.

The other question you have to ask yourself is; If the Equalizer handicap is really and truly fair, and it works, and a skill level 2 has just a good as a chance against a 7 as a skill level 6 does than why do they cap the handicaps at 23?

The system, while good in theory, is flawed and has 0 percent chance of working. Just my .02
Click to expand...

It gives the lower ranked player a shot when they would otherwise have none. I just checked my last 30 and I'm 22-5 against 5s and up, but 0-3 vs. 2s and 3s (that's unusual for me, but it happens, which is the point).

And I remember the night the 2 beat me well, because she almost jumped through the roof she was so happy! And that's what makes the league fun for everybody. Great for her (as long as it's not the playoffs!). Her winning a 7-2 against me race is maybe a 10:1 or 20:1 shot, but that's several thousand times more likely than her winning a 5-5 race. And without a handicapped league, she would likely have never taken up league, never gotten better, and then never beaten me. And the pool hall would have one less customer at a time when nearly all pool halls need customers.

So the "Equalizer" works -- it just doesn't make every race 50-50.

Cory
 
derekdisco said:
apa is impossible to win as a team unless you sandbag. Its dumb and a waste of time.
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Sir, i beg to differ with your generalized statement. the team that i captain just finished the summer session with these results - we won 11 straight weeks with no losses. my team's ranks are 1-7, 2-5s, 2-4s, 2-3s and a 2. the worst we did was a few 3-2 nights with a bunch of 4-1 and 3 5-0 nights. i tell all my players to play their best at all times and it falls to me as captain to try to match them up to the right person in a match. we did have three people move up in handicap and if they move one more spot we may have to reorganise the roster.

i was also approached by a player wanting to join my team who bragged that he had finally gotten his handicap "down" to a 4, i told him thanks but no thanks. as a team we are improving and when a time comes that we can not stay under the "23" rule i will have some tough decisions to make as to who to let go. my point is i accept the rules as they are written, when i see something which does not adhere to those rules i notify the league office in writing and by phone. if it gets fixed fine, if not i know better next time.

just a few of my opinions, which together with 2.50 might get you a cup of coffee.

mike:smile:
 
mm4pool said:
Sir, i beg to differ with your generalized statement. the team that i captain just finished the summer session with these results - we won 11 straight weeks with no losses. my team's ranks are 1-7, 2-5s, 2-4s, 2-3s and a 2. the worst we did was a few 3-2 nights with a bunch of 4-1 and 3 5-0 nights. i tell all my players to play their best at all times and it falls to me as captain to try to match them up to the right person in a match. we did have three people move up in handicap and if they move one more spot we may have to reorganise the roster.

i was also approached by a player wanting to join my team who bragged that he had finally gotten his handicap "down" to a 4, i told him thanks but no thanks. as a team we are improving and when a time comes that we can not stay under the "23" rule i will have some tough decisions to make as to who to let go. my point is i accept the rules as they are written, when i see something which does not adhere to those rules i notify the league office in writing and by phone. if it gets fixed fine, if not i know better next time.

just a few of my opinions, which together with 2.50 might get you a cup of coffee.

mike:smile:
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I agree with you 100%. I am only the co-captain but I tell my team the exact same thing. Don't worry about handicaps, just play to win. Yes, I have been on teams that needed to break-up, but there are enough people out there to keep the "core" team together for the most part.

And no, I have have never "won" the trip to vegas, we came within one game this year; however, my wife and I went anyway to support the other teams and gamble, of course...lol.
 
This is a APA is full of sandbagger thread if you want to praise the APA start ( I support the APA for taking my money and thinking of themselfs thread ). :thumbup:
 
ok, I have a question....handicaps are supposed to be in place to level the playing field - is this correct? Then why is it that when a 4 or 5 beats a 7 (in 8ball) - they have to be sandbaggers? I mean, if the handicap does it's job either one should win 50% of the time. I never got how a 3 beating a 6 means the 3 is under-ranked. I think at least 75% of the sandbagging complaints I heard were ego driven. That being said, I did see a few 4s, 5s, and 6s, that "seemed" to play better in weekly tourneys (and I do mean better than higher rated players). I played APA back in 07 - and our team went to NTC in Vegas, and I heard all the sandbagging accusations back then. Funny that I never purposely lost...it's more that lower rated players aren't consistant - I could run a rack, or I could miss 3 straight shots....I wouldn't say basing ny rating back then on me running a rack or two per session woulda been quite fair either....
 
Tired Subject

This subject gets new life every few months :boring2:

APA is what it is and will never change

My only question: How many people in this thread make the same complaint monthly and follow it up with " But I only need (Fill in the blank) more years to get my crappy jacket"

lol
 
I've seen just about every type of bagging there is and it happens in every handicapped league. In a perfect world, everyone would play to the best of their ability and keep score correctly. In reality, there is always someone looking to work the system.

I quit the APA because I was tired of seeing all the crap that went on. Players dumping matches, scoresheets being blatantly falsified and league ops with their own agenda. I currently play TAP primarily because of the 25 rule. As a 7, it makes it easier for me to field a competitive team. But a lot of the same stuff goes on there as well.

As a league player, you have three options: play straight up and take your chances, cheat like everyone else or quit.

The only real solution to all this is to throw out players that are caught doing it. But as we all know, that costs league ops money, so it won't happen.
 
I know there were at least 3 teams disqualified this year at the nationals. Disqualification happens when too many on the team have their handicap go up or an individual is raised 2 levels. There were 718 teams playing and there were a lot of observers on hand, as well as the office overlooking the tournament floor.

I captain an 8 ball team, and this was all of our first time to the nationals. When we placed 3rd in the state and qualifiied to go to Vegas, We were paid enough to get roundtrip air and hotel for everybody. We stayed at the Circus, and the team members that opted to share a room ended up with $336 to spend from the initial state money (3rd place money) When we got to Vegas we got $350 (last place money) and another $650 for 129th place.

We got a paid for trip to Vegas because we like to go out on a Tuesday night and play pool together. I do have a "core of 4" on the team and am forced to make some changes for the upcoming session. Everyone knew and understood that going in.

Do people try and manipulate the system? Absolutely, there's money to be had. Most do not, and it seems that some area's have more of a problem with it than others. I know that the matches I saw between 3's and 4's looked like matches between 3's and 4's.

They gave out a total of $592K for 8 ball. No one ever said they would give any one team a million dollars...someone towards the start of this thread said that and it's simply not true. As an individual you can win $25K in the singles championships.

:cool:
 
DelaWho??? said:
I know there were at least 3 teams disqualified this year at the nationals. Disqualification happens when too many on the team have their handicap go up or an individual is raised 2 levels. There were 718 teams playing and there were a lot of observers on hand, as well as the office overlooking the tournament floor.

I captain an 8 ball team, and this was all of our first time to the nationals. When we placed 3rd in the state and qualifiied to go to Vegas, We were paid enough to get roundtrip air and hotel for everybody. We stayed at the Circus, and the team members that opted to share a room ended up with $336 to spend from the initial state money (3rd place money) When we got to Vegas we got $350 (last place money) and another $650 for 129th place.

We got a paid for trip to Vegas because we like to go out on a Tuesday night and play pool together. I do have a "core of 4" on the team and am forced to make some changes for the upcoming session. Everyone knew and understood that going in.

Do people try and manipulate the system? Absolutely, there's money to be had. Most do not, and it seems that some area's have more of a problem with it than others. I know that the matches I saw between 3's and 4's looked like matches between 3's and 4's.

They gave out a total of $592K for 8 ball. No one ever said they would give any one team a million dollars...someone towards the start of this thread said that and it's simply not true. As an individual you can win $25K in the singles championships.

:cool:
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Let's say you had two players raised (just for an example a 3 to a 4 and a 4 to a 5) while playing in the NTC. Most everyone who goes to Vegas knows in advance that they are going (there's some time from qualifying to actually going to Vegas)...so, they practice quite a bit more than they normally would. Is it really inconcievable that your 4 that got raised to a 5 might get raised twice (to a 6). Let's say he ONLY plays once a week and still wins a BIG percentage of his matches, but isn't very consistant. I can see how with some dedicated training for a BIG national event, he may be able to focus a bit more and "appear" to have been bagging all year as well.....I dunno, there are to many variables to just immediately cry CHEATER when someone plays really well (even if for just one match).
 
trustyrusty said:
Let's say you had two players raised (just for an example a 3 to a 4 and a 4 to a 5) while playing in the NTC. Most everyone who goes to Vegas knows in advance that they are going (there's some time from qualifying to actually going to Vegas)...so, they practice quite a bit more than they normally would. Is it really inconcievable that your 4 that got raised to a 5 might get raised twice (to a 6). Let's say he ONLY plays once a week and still wins a BIG percentage of his matches, but isn't very consistant. I can see how with some dedicated training for a BIG national event, he may be able to focus a bit more and "appear" to have been bagging all year as well.....I dunno, there are to many variables to just immediately cry CHEATER when someone plays really well (even if for just one match).
Click to expand...

Not inconceivable at all, and having 2 guys go up doesn't guarantee a dq. They will highly scrutinize the team though. We did practice a lot for the event, many of my team mates were on my table every day for the couple months prior to the event. We wanted to be at our best and while we didn't do well, we all had our moments to shine and contribute. We go into playoffs again tomorrow night. Hopefully wew'll be back in Vegas next yr. We all had a blast

:cool:
 
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