APA skill level review--advice wanted

After 3 weeks in the APA they have moved me up to a 7. Im posting this not to talk about my play, but how being a 7 feels. For me it carries a little prestige. Am I bummed that I have to play the best player on every team? Yeah, a little. But holding back your speed is only an embarrassment on oneself and a blemish on the game. The APA system will never be perfect. With all the variables that happen within the game, the APA system does seem to get it right for the most part. I lost last week to an sl6, the sun still came up the next morning.
 
I won 28 weeks in a row as a 6.... Went to Little Rock to work for a week and tortured 3-4 APA 7s who would have been 5s in Knoxville... Not all LOs keep things on the up and up.... The new owner took over maybe 3 years ago here and I do hear it is better but I still don't think I would go back...
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Let me be clear: this is NOT a thread for bashing the APA. I am not complaining about the APA. If you want to post here, please keep these things in mind!

I am seeking advice from people who may have experienced a similar situation:

I have a player on my team who was a 3. She has been a 2 in the last 20 weeks, and actually played a total of 6 matches as a 2 at various times over those last 20 weeks. (She has gone up and down...usually wins as a 2). So at this sessions regional playoffs, she plays the first round as a 3. Her opponent played badly, and served up some nice easy tables for her. She shot the match of her life and won. We come back the next day and they have moved her up to a 4. Believe me, she is NOT a 4. Her skill set is nothing like the typical 4's in our area. She only wins 50% of the time as a 3. Her innings average well above 5, generally over 6 innings per game. I have inquired with my league operator about it. He is a really nice guy, and quite helpful. He would not tell me if the skill level was manually adjusted, or was automatically calculated by the computer. Let's just say that there is no possible chance it was calculated by the computer. We are a very honest team, keep track of every safety shot, mark all innings, and always try our best on every single shot. No suprise that over the years, many people's handicaps have gone up. I have never argued or raised the slightest objection.

However, this time I believe a mistake was made. Someone manually adjusted her score without enough info to do so. She could have shot a 7 level score in the playoffs (she didn't!!) and it still wouldn't have been enough to offset her average.

I am not really interested in debating whether or not the skill level change was justified. Lets just assume for the sake of this thread that it was NOT justified. My LO asked me to submit a handicap review form. I did. He contacted corporate and they told him that NO handicaps would be reviewed for teams qualified for the States (LTC). We played 3 rounds in the playoffs...she played the first round and won, and then sat out the next 2 rounds after she was raised to a 4. I am now told that not only will they not review her handicap being raised, but that her S/L will be locked until the states in June?!?!? Something is fundamentally wrong with this.

My question: has anyone faced a similar situation? How did you handle it? What courses of action resulted in success (having the skill level restored to the correct level). Should I be appealing directly to corporate, since there is a possible conflict of interest with my league office? (They have nothing against me and my team, but they may have something against being "wrong".) I mean, this girl is not good. No offense to her, but she often misses ball in hand. She is NOT a 4 or close to it.

Any advice would be most appreciated,

KMRUNOUT
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Just a couple of thoughts from someone who has played in the APA for years.

From my experience, it normally takes a player to win way more than 50% at a skill level to go up if they are not shooting scores above that skill level. You mentioned that she averaged well over 5innings per game. was that before defensives or after they are removed. Also do you play on 7 foot tabels or bigger. I know that bigger tables affect your handicap as well.

The other thing to ask is has your league had a team DQ'd at Vegas or in Cities before. If they have then the APA wll likely be on your LO's back to make absolutely sure that none of the players in your area are even close to being below their level. That being said, it should not put you at a disadvantage because it is likely happening to every team in your area.

I also know that over the past couple of years I have had playes go up that I do not believe should be higher and when i have asked my L.O. I have been told that it is because their "important scores" show they are playng better than their skill level. The first time I heard that I asked what it meant. I was told that apparantly the computer had a way of calculating your skill level usong only "important scores" ie. playoff, singles and city tournament scores. It apparantly gives you a skill level based on a second set of criteria that is different from the last 20 scores. I can understand why they would do that because that way if a player always plays better when it matters, then it levels the playing field. The problem occurs when a player has only a couple scores that are "important" and then you only have a small sample size to deal with.

I am sure that you are not the first team that has seen this and will definitely not be the last.

Just some information from my experience. Hope it helps.

Leagueguy
 
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LeagueGuy said:
.

Just some information from my experience. Hope it helps.

Leagueguy
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It don't. His player, who is a strong SL2/weak SL3 still has to play as a SL4. It sucks for that player AND captain to have to suffer through it all until her skill level goes back down. APA advertises FUN in their ads, but that's not always the case!!!

Maniac (been there, done that)
 
KMRUNOUT said:
This is an excellent suggestion, and the first post to offer me advice. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to hear about other peoples' experiences, so please keep them coming. But mostly I would like to know what worked for other people.

I really like the approach you advise here. Unfortunately its too late for that. My LO was not present at the regional playoffs. The morning I found out she was a 4, I suggested to the 2nd in command that there might have been a mistake. He shut me down completely, and said "we are not going to talk about handicaps at all". He asked me to fill out a review request form. I did. I was then told that corporate told my LO that no skill levels would be reviewed for players that qualified for the states.

Another problem is that my LO, as the boss, is essentially responsible for the decision one of his underlings made to raise her skill level manually. Thus to "correct" that mistake is essentially to admit error. Having talked for many hours to my LO, he is generally not one to admit error. Instead, he will come up with a million "reasons" that what they did was ok, and justified. His contention is that she had a 60% win average for her last 20 games. This is true. She won 5 of the 12 she won as a 2. Also, for anyone familiar with the way the handicap system works, win % is really not a significant factor in determining skill level. It is principally based on innings per game. She averaged 6.85 innings per game over her last 20. 5.35 over her best 10 of the last 20. Sorry, but this is a 3. So given my LO's "justification" for the raise, it sounds like he is either grabbing at straws to justify an error his staff made (by even mentioning win %), or he is not very knowledgeable about the APA handicap system (which I doubt).

In either case, there exists a potential conflict of interest in that the LO may want to avoid admitting error by changing her S/L back down. I am curious why I hear on here all the time about LO's doing whatever they please, and mine is telling me his hands are tied by corporate. Odd that they were not tied when he manually changed her S/L??

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice. At very least I will ask him to review her handicap as if the situation never happened.

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT
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LeagueGuy said:
Just a couple of thoughts from someone who has played in the APA for years.

From my experience, it normally takes a player to win way more than 50% at a skill level to go up if they are not shooting scores above that skill level. You mentioned that she averaged well over 5innings per game. was that before defensives or after they are removed. Also do you play on 7 foot tabels or bigger. I know that bigger tables affect your handicap as well.

The other thing to ask is has your league had a team DQ'd at Vegas or in Cities before. If they have then the APA wll likely be on your LO's back to make absolutely sure that none of the players in your area are even close to being below their level. That being said, it should not put you at a disadvantage because it is likely happening to every team in your area.

I also know that over the past couple of years I have had playes go up that I do not believe should be higher and when i have asked my L.O. I have been told that it is because their "important scores" show they are playng better than their skill level. The first time I heard that I asked what it meant. I was told that apparantly the computer had a way of calculating your skill level usong only "important scores" ie. playoff, singles and city tournament scores. It apparantly gives you a skill level based on a second set of criteria that is different from the last 20 scores. I can understand why they would do that because that way if a player always plays better when it matters, then it levels the playing field. The problem occurs when a player has only a couple scores that are "important" and then you only have a small sample size to deal with.

I am sure that you are not the first team that has seen this and will definitely not be the last.

Just some information from my experience. Hope it helps.

Leagueguy
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A couple thoughts here. A few years back the apa handicap formula was posted from a lawsuit. If i remember correctly the winning percentage has a lot more to do with the adjusted score that one might think. Maybe someone else can help me clarify but if you won the match you got an adjusted score based on your winning percentage and not your actually score. So if in fact you have a 50% winning percentage and you won your match your actual adjusted score was or could be a lot lower than the actual score. This should cause people who keep winning to be raised. Just from observations of myself and other players any winning percentage above 60% seems to be the tipping point to being raised around here.

Also a sl 2 can not remain a 2 and have a 50% winning percentage. Any 2 with a 50% winning percentage was automatically rasied to a 3.

Leagueguy i have heard that playoffs and tournaments wins count 2x. So if you win and win big in those situations it counts as 2 of your top 10 out of 20 wins. Seems like a good idea so if someone sandbags during the session but turns it on during playoffs and wins 3 matches big, that will actually count as 6 of their top 10 matches and would seem to get them bumped up a sl pretty fast.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
This is an excellent suggestion, and the first post to offer me advice. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to hear about other peoples' experiences, so please keep them coming. But mostly I would like to know what worked for other people.

I really like the approach you advise here. Unfortunately its too late for that. My LO was not present at the regional playoffs. The morning I found out she was a 4, I suggested to the 2nd in command that there might have been a mistake. He shut me down completely, and said "we are not going to talk about handicaps at all". He asked me to fill out a review request form. I did. I was then told that corporate told my LO that no skill levels would be reviewed for players that qualified for the states.

Another problem is that my LO, as the boss, is essentially responsible for the decision one of his underlings made to raise her skill level manually. Thus to "correct" that mistake is essentially to admit error. Having talked for many hours to my LO, he is generally not one to admit error. Instead, he will come up with a million "reasons" that what they did was ok, and justified. His contention is that she had a 60% win average for her last 20 games. This is true. She won 5 of the 12 she won as a 2. Also, for anyone familiar with the way the handicap system works, win % is really not a significant factor in determining skill level. It is principally based on innings per game. She averaged 6.85 innings per game over her last 20. 5.35 over her best 10 of the last 20. Sorry, but this is a 3. So given my LO's "justification" for the raise, it sounds like he is either grabbing at straws to justify an error his staff made (by even mentioning win %), or he is not very knowledgeable about the APA handicap system (which I doubt).

In either case, there exists a potential conflict of interest in that the LO may want to avoid admitting error by changing her S/L back down. I am curious why I hear on here all the time about LO's doing whatever they please, and mine is telling me his hands are tied by corporate. Odd that they were not tied when he manually changed her S/L??

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice. At very least I will ask him to review her handicap as if the situation never happened.

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT
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My advice to you is NOT to speak with the LO about your teammate. If you do, anything you say will be met with skepticism. We get calls from captains and teammates all the time, and more often than not their only concern is the number on the sheet and how it affects their ability to play within the 23 rule. Many of them haven't even spoken with the player in question, and I often find out after speaking with that player that they are fine with the new skill level.

I'm not saying this is you. I'm saying this is what you will sound like. And if you start talking 6.85 this and 5.35 that, the LO will stop listening period. He may ask you why you are keeping your own stats (like sandbaggers do). Again, I'm not saying this is you, but this is the reaction you will get.

If I were you, I would sit down and have a chat with my friend. I would tell her that she's going to have to play as a 4 for a while, and she should not get so discouraged that she gives up. If she gives up it can actually hurt her chances of going back down to a 3. It sounds weird, I know, but think about it. When you gave her history you basically said that (a) when she's a 2 she can win 2 games every time, and (b) when she's a 3 she can win 2 games (or 3) half the time. If she gives up, chances are she won't be winning 2 games very often, and the LO will see that. He will wonder why she can't win 2 any more, and may decide that it's either in her head or she's dumping. Either way, she's not trying to win and she won't go down.

She needs to do her best every match, the team needs to do what they can to get her matched up on the same type of players she was playing as a 3 (could be a factor in whether she can win two games or not), and if she starts to feel discouraged she needs to be the one to approach the LO. Nobody else, because everybody else may have an ulterior motive.
 
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You are not from Maryland APA are you? I ask because, your LO sounds a lot like ours.

I had a situation where our 4 was raised to a 5 based on one match in playoffs in which he did not win a single game, by his own ability.

He was playing a SL 6 and won the match because his opponent, scratched on the 8 in every game.

He was raised because when they entered the scores, they failed to code the scratches in the program, and the LO would not admit the mistake, or fix it.

Sorry that I have no advice, my experience is that the word for the LO is like the voice from the burning bush. From my experience, the only thing that will fix this is time. She just has to play, and whatever happens... happens.


KMRUNOUT said:
This is an excellent suggestion, and the first post to offer me advice. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to hear about other peoples' experiences, so please keep them coming. But mostly I would like to know what worked for other people.

I really like the approach you advise here. Unfortunately its too late for that. My LO was not present at the regional playoffs. The morning I found out she was a 4, I suggested to the 2nd in command that there might have been a mistake. He shut me down completely, and said "we are not going to talk about handicaps at all". He asked me to fill out a review request form. I did. I was then told that corporate told my LO that no skill levels would be reviewed for players that qualified for the states.

Another problem is that my LO, as the boss, is essentially responsible for the decision one of his underlings made to raise her skill level manually. Thus to "correct" that mistake is essentially to admit error. Having talked for many hours to my LO, he is generally not one to admit error. Instead, he will come up with a million "reasons" that what they did was ok, and justified. His contention is that she had a 60% win average for her last 20 games. This is true. She won 5 of the 12 she won as a 2. Also, for anyone familiar with the way the handicap system works, win % is really not a significant factor in determining skill level. It is principally based on innings per game. She averaged 6.85 innings per game over her last 20. 5.35 over her best 10 of the last 20. Sorry, but this is a 3. So given my LO's "justification" for the raise, it sounds like he is either grabbing at straws to justify an error his staff made (by even mentioning win %), or he is not very knowledgeable about the APA handicap system (which I doubt).

In either case, there exists a potential conflict of interest in that the LO may want to avoid admitting error by changing her S/L back down. I am curious why I hear on here all the time about LO's doing whatever they please, and mine is telling me his hands are tied by corporate. Odd that they were not tied when he manually changed her S/L??

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice. At very least I will ask him to review her handicap as if the situation never happened.

Thanks again,

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...
 
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The APA takes your best 10 matches out of your last 20 matches to figure out your skill level. And sure the L.O. Can tweak it a little.
Just remember it's so easy to move up a skill level but harder then hell to go back down!
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I respect your right to your opinion, but similar to my league office, you appear to be making an assumption based on very little information. What you say is *possible*, although extremely unlikely. This is exactly what we talked about when she went from a 2 to a 3 only several weeks ago. She did have the realistic chance to be competitive as a 3. Her win % was 50, which means she was just getting by as a 3. When I say "no chance of winning", I figured it went without saying that what I mean is "she will not be competitive as a 4". I believe she will only win if she plays a 2 who can't make a ball. This is my opinion, and also the opinion of the player in question and the rest of the team. One difference is that I have YEARS of observation of this player to back up my opinion. I think you would be very much more qualified to stand behind your assertion if you had at least seen her play once. I'm just calling it like I see it. It would be a disservice to her to ask her to come and lose every week. She won't enjoy it. Knowing her as a person for many years, she will not invest any time in trying to reinvent her game, or really even improve at all. She doesn't have that drive. It took a lot to teach her how to win as a 3.

Besides, I was asking for advice on how best to deal with the league, not whether or not people believe me that she should be a 3. Thanks anyway though, I genuinely do appreciate all perspectives on this.

KMRUNOUT
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If your win/lose percentage is 50%................ doesn't mean that the handicap system is working perfectly ???

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
If your win/lose percentage is 50%................ doesn't mean that the handicap system is working perfectly ???

Kim
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Not only that but if she is winning 50% of her games as a 3 and is winning them handily she was probably teetering on the 3-4 line. Love it or hate apa handicaps are designed to give lower skilled players a chance to be competitive against better players, but in doing so and beating the higher ranked players it punishes you by raising your handicap.
 
I agree with Spotmonster, wait it out. She shot the game of her life, and now shes paying for it(typical). Make sure that when and if you ask, there is something there to back it up.

If the APA would only allow 7's or better to be league operators, things would go so much smoother. You cant expect a 5 to know a level 6 or 7 sandbagger, or even a legitimate 4 when he sees one.
 
I don't know APA. I once played in a BCA league, but I just showed up and played, didn't pay attention to the score sheets.

And I'll tell you this, and I believe it to be very true.............

If you come into a match thinking that, for example, you are a 4 and your opponent is a 6, you are immediately at a disadvantage. In your mind, you are already defeated because you are a lower rank. This mental process is very hard to stop. Every time you shoot, you will have it in your mind that you shouldn't win.

And if you label yourself as a number, you will have a tendency to play like that number. If you are rated a 4, your mind will be telling you that you should play like a 4, and miss. If you are playing a 6 and you get down to the game ball, it will be in your mind that you are a 4, and 4's miss this shot.

There is more to say about this, but I'll only get into it if there seems to be some interest. I made some remarks on how the mind works in pool in a recent thread and it did not receive much response.
 
While this might not be the "best" solution, it is one option. I'm not saying it's the correct solution to your issue because I don't know all the variables (the LO personality for one thing). I've played in the APA and have seen similar situations...not exact, but similar so I know your "pain".

The APA is a business. It's designed to make money plain and simple. One option is to figure out exactly how much your team pays to the APA each session/year and take that figure to your LO. Advise him that you are paying for a service...which is what you're doing...you're paying for a "chance" to go to Vegas, provided by the APA, and win some money. If you're dissatisfied with the service you're receiving, then I would advise the LO exactly that...and advise him that unless he and the APA are on the up-and-up, that you can (key word "can") take your business (showing him the bottom-line dollar figure you and your team contributes to the APA) elsewhere...

Again, just an option...but for me personally, I don't like paying for a service and then receiving a "disservice" in return...

Jason
 
I have only been in APA for 5 weeks:

My rating have gone (initial) 4 -> 7 -> 3 -> 7 -> 5 -> 6. Who knows what I will be next week. Talking to others who have been in the game longer, I should be a 6.5 (if they gave out 0.5s); once I get my "self choke" mentality dealt with I should become a solid 7.
 
MitchAlsup said:
I have only been in APA for 5 weeks:

My rating have gone (initial) 4 -> 7 -> 3 -> 7 -> 5 -> 6. Who knows what I will be next week. Talking to others who have been in the game longer, I should be a 6.5 (if they gave out 0.5s); once I get my "self choke" mentality dealt with I should become a solid 7.
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Well that sucks! I went 3->5->7 in my first 3 weeks in 8 ball and haven't moved since. I do fine against other 7's and even 6's. I have trouble with the 4's and 5's that shoot like 7's. And there's a bunch of those.

My solution was to join a scratch league. If you lose, you shake their hand and go home. Much simpler. :cool:
 
Until she plays enough matches to establish her handicap, her handicap will fluctuate more than normal.
 
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