Applying sidespin with low-deflection shafts

[dr9ball]

This is yet another example of aimers snipped

P.S. There's no such thing as parallel english.

So PJ what do you call it when somone finds their shot line through the center of the cueball then parallel shifts their cue and body (moving the aiming line) to provide the amount of sidespin they want on the cue ball and changes their aiming point to compensate for squirt? Or do you believe shots can not be made with this method?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So PJ what do you call it when somone finds their shot line through the center of the cueball then parallel shifts their cue and body (moving the aiming line) to provide the amount of sidespin they want on the cue ball and changes their aiming point to compensate for squirt? Or do you believe shots can not be made with this method?

First, let's be clear: changing the tip/CB contact point (is that what you mean by "aiming point"?) doesn't compensate for squirt; it just applies the sidespin. Changing the stick/stroke angle (so it's not parallel with the CB/ghostball line) compensates for squirt. If you change the stick/stroke angle, then you're not applying "parallel english".

I believe only rare shots can be made with a true "parallel shift" - those for which swerve exactly compensates for squirt. If you use this method for every shot, then you're either:

- adjusting shot speed and/or cue elevation to produce the necessary amount of swerve (which is very limiting and unreliable), or

- subconsciously adjusting your aim for squirt during or after the "parallel shift" (which means you're not really applying "parallel english")

pj
chgo

 

[TATE]

So I just bought a new 314-2 shaft. Previously I shot just fine with a standard maple shaft, and this new shaft is rattling my cage. What method to apply side spin do you guys recommend? I used to use backhand English on my maple shaft very effectively.

So, are there any advice, tips, or stories you can share about you readjusting to a low deflection shaft? It truly is a much different experience.

Sorry, I feel your pain. Sounds like your conventional shaft was a high squirt one, so it may take awhile. It also sounds like you were setting up considerably off the center of the cue ball for side spin shots.

Here's what I tell players migrating to LD shafts from a high squirt shaft. On English shots, just aim like you're shooting a shot without English, but go ahead and cue up a half tip or a tip off center. You will need to make small adjustments from there but that's going to be closer to your true aim point than what you are experiencing right now. Don't worry about if you are setting up parallel or not, just set up as you naturally would a straight in shot without the swivel. Your mind will do the rest once you've used the shaft for awhile. It may take you a month or two to really adapt.

Sometimes it's hard to align, so when you're standing behind the shot and aligning, just imagine you are aligning in a position shooting with english the way you apply it. Just remember, on any shaft, the closer you stay to the vertical center line, the more accurate and reliable your shot-making will be. You can achieve shape and spin effects in other ways than going way outside the center line.

Other adjustment issues involve different tip type and size , different weight and balance. The lower weight the end of the shaft definitely has an effect on the cue ball's reaction to each shot.

Chris

Ps. If you don't adjust after a month or two, and notice a distinct improvement in accuracy on side spin shots, then you may be better off with your old shaft. Some players get no benefit from LD shafts and in fact it hurts their game.

 

[Dead Crab]

Is squirt not minimized for all cues by pivoting at the pivot point?

To get the most effective use of an LD shaft, say with a PP at 16", wouldn't it be best to use the combination of FHE and BHE that keeps this pivot point on the shot line?

Why don't manufacturers state the PP spec? I've tried asking, but don't get an answer. Either they don't know, or aren't telling.

 

[mikepage]

Is squirt not minimized for all cues by pivoting at the pivot point?

Just some wording here. The squirt doesn't change by pivoting. The pivoting provides aim compensation that hopefully is equal and opposite to the squirt

To get the most effective use of an LD shaft, say with a PP at 16", wouldn't it be best to use the combination of FHE and BHE that keeps this pivot point on the shot line?

Well... sort of... These techniques tend to be overhyped. If there's any significant swerve involved, and there often is, then pivoting about the pp gives the wrong aim anyway.

Usually when someone if first introduced to aim&pivot english, and they fire in a few test shots, they think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then after a while, reality steps in--for most people at least.

Some people just love the idea that there are "secrets" to be learned, and they tend to be attracted to these kinds of things. Look at the aiming system threads for examples of this.

Why don't manufacturers state the PP spec? I've tried asking, but don't get an answer. Either they don't know, or aren't telling.

I think it's a little of both. If you're trying to manufacture a low-squirt shaft, then the last thing you want to advertise is that your shaft squirts "almost as little" as the other guys.

Also, it's a little tough to measure accurately, and there's no simple, consistent, agreed-upon approach to measuring the number.

 

[dr9ball]

First, let's be clear: changing the tip/CB contact point (is that what you mean by "aiming point"?) doesn't compensate for squirt; it just applies the sidespin. Changing the stick/stroke angle (so it's not parallel with the CB/ghostball line) compensates for squirt. If you change the stick/stroke angle, then you're not applying "parallel english".

I believe only rare shots can be made with a true "parallel shift" - those for which swerve exactly compensates for squirt. If you use this method for every shot, then you're either:

- adjusting shot speed and/or cue elevation to produce the necessary amount of swerve (which is very limiting and unreliable), or

- subconsciously adjusting your aim for squirt during or after the "parallel shift" (which means you're not really applying "parallel english")

pj
chgo

thanks for your clarification. I noted previously that I was adjusting my aiming.

 

[dr_dave]

So, are there any advice, tips, or stories you can share about you readjusting to a low deflection shaft?

Lot's of advice and video demonstrations dealing with how to adjust for squirt, swerve, and throw, for any cue, can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Dead Crab]

***************
I think it's a little of both. If you're trying to manufacture a low-squirt shaft, then the last thing you want to advertise is that your shaft squirts "almost as little" as the other guys.
********************

I dunno. They seem pretty frisky with their claims of xx% less deflection than....

I would be a lot more impressed if they would put up some numbers like" This shaft, when bridged at 10" and using 6 mm of BHE and a stroke producing initial CB speed of __ m/s, produced __mm of deflection at 1m and __mm of deflection at 2m." Your mileage may vary, and yes, I realize swerve is a factor.

It is very difficult for some of us to test drive these shafts. They might sell more of them if the specs were available, and convincing.

 

[mincho]

Ps. If you don't adjust after a month or two, and notice a distinct improvement in accuracy on side spin shots, then you may be better off with your old shaft. Some players get no benefit from LD shafts and in fact it hurts their game.

I'm beginning to see how LD shafts can in fact worsen one's game. I'm going to stick with it for a while and just see if I can get accustomed to it. Thanks for your reply.

 

[mikepage]

I'm beginning to see how LD shafts can in fact worsen one's game. I'm going to stick with it for a while and just see if I can get accustomed to it. Thanks for your reply.

Absolutely. It's like you grew up golfing on a course that ALWAYS had a 15 MPH side wind that went one direction or another across each hole.

Then suddenly you moved to a place where the constant side wind was only 5 MPH.

 

[TATE]

Absolutely. It's like you grew up golfing on a course that ALWAYS had a 15 MPH side wind that went one direction or another across each hole.

Then suddenly you moved to a place where the constant side wind was only 5 MPH.

This is a great analogy - absolutely right on Mike!

Chris

 

[dr_dave]

Do any of you use front hand english with LD shafts?

Yes ... mostly with longer, slower follow shots (with English).

How much do you shift over?

... that depends on how much English I want.

I hear pros use a combination of front-hand and back-hand english.

I would bet that most pros have never even heard of FHE or BHE. I think most pros adjust their aim for squirt, swerve, and throw intuitively (i.e., by "feel") based on their implicit understanding of all of the important squirt/swerve/throw effects. They "just know" where to aim based on their countless hours of successful practice and play. Having said this, FHE and BHE are excellent tools for somebody who is not a pro, especially if he or she has a good understanding of all of the important effects.

FYI, on Disc II of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots, Tom Ross and I show examples of how to use BHE, FHE, and a combination of the two effectively for different types of shots. Which one or which combination you use depends on shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, bridge length, table conditions, etc. (e.g., see NV B.70 - Squirt, swerve, and throw, from VEPS II)

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I'm beginning to see how LD shafts can in fact worsen one's game.

There are both advantages and disadvantages to switching to a LD (low-squirt) shaft; but with practice, theory suggests you should be slightly more accurate and consistent with an LD shaft.

Regards,
Dave

 

[LAMas]

A problem with shooting with a LD shaft is if you find yourself in a bar or room without your LD shaft and must play with a HD house cue.:smile:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

thanks for your clarification. I noted previously that I was adjusting my aiming.

I wasn't sure at first reading, but it seems that you define "parallel english" as first shifting parallel to apply english and then adjusting the stick angle (aim point) to compensate for squirt.

Of course this works, but the parallel shift is only half of it. I think it's misleading to call the whole method "parallel english", especially when the topic is squirt adjustment and the parallel shift is the step that doesn't adjust for squirt.

pj
chgo

 

[dr9ball]

There are both advantages and disadvantages to switching to a LD (low-squirt) shaft; but with practice, theory suggests you should be slightly more accurate and consistent with an LD shaft.

Regards,
Dave

Slightly more accurate? Is it a statistically significant difference if you look at a large group of pool players?

 

[dr_dave]

There are both advantages and disadvantages to switching to a LD (low-squirt) shaft; but with practice, theory suggests you should be slightly more accurate and consistent with an LD shaft.

Slightly more accurate?

... yes, based on the qualitative analysis on page 3 of my December '07 BD article.

Is it a statistically significant difference if you look at a large group of pool players?

If you tested a large number of players who have always used low-squirt shafts (or have used low-squirt shafts for a long time), and tested an equal number of players of equal ability and experience who have used higher-squirt shafts for the same amount of time, I would expect a slight difference in consistency for shots requiring English (especially fast and/or short-distance shots where squirt is a much more dominant than swerve), based on the argument in the article. Whether the "slight difference" is significant or not ... I don't know.

I think a low-squirt shaft can help some players a lot (e.g., players that don't know what squirt is, or players that dont' know how to properly compensate for squirt). However, for some players, there are many disadvantages to a low-squirt cue. Finally, as I point out in the last line of my article, the mind is a powerful thing. If a person thinks a cue will help them play better, it probably will.

Regards,
Dave

 

[TATE]

I think a low-squirt shaft can help some players a lot (e.g., players that don't know what squirt is, or players that dont' know how to properly compensate for squirt). However, for some players, there are many disadvantages to a low-squirt cue. Finally, as I point out in the last line of my article, the mind is a powerful thing. If a person thinks a cue will help them play better, it probably will.

Regards,
Dave

I disagree here in the sense that the way the dominant aftermarket LD shafts are constructed, OB and Predator, I have found that are more consistent from shot to shot than a conventionally built shaft. The shafts have no directional spine, so they tend to squirt the same no matter how the cue is held. Plus they can be replaced with the same model shaft with little or no aim adjustment.

A player needs to trust their equipment. Repeatability and consistency is very important.

Chris

 

[mincho]

So right now, with the low-deflection shaft, backhand english (aim centerball and then pivot about your bridge hand until the tip is where you want it and then stroke straight along the new line) causes you to hit outside english shots too thin and inside english shots too fat.

Here's one thing you might want to try.

Aim centerball

Do a parallel shift until the tip is about halfway to where it needs to go.

Do your old "backhand english" from there.

If you continue to hit outside english shots too thin, then parallel shift to a little more than halfway.

Or if instead you now hit the outside english shots too fat, change the parallel shift to a little less than halfway.

Play with this until it works, and then just try it for a while.

I actually tried this earlier and it seemed to work better. It's just a very long learning period I'm afraid. After seeing some positive effects of the low deflection shaft it really makes you want to keep going.

 

[book collector]

Applying sidespin

Agggggggghhhhhhhh!!!!! I bought a Predator cue with a Z2 shaft so I didn't have to deal with deflection squirt parrelel BH FH SH . Now I read all this stuff . I like this cue but it has deflection just like my other cues , it is about half my McDermott as far as a table length shot with extreme sidespin. I will probably go back to the McDermott because when I am playing all the time I know how much to compensate and I can dig into the ball and come at the object ball from a different angle and make shots I don't think I could with these low deflection cues.