So you are saying there are people monitoring the system to make sure no-one is trying to game it?
Apps that report to Fargo
- Thread starter mnorwood
- Start date
I’m saying that Salotto matches are automatically public on your profile so it’s visible for anyone to look at and cry foul. Starting with that, if someone does something suss they are risking their entire reputation. And certainly a higher skilled player snapping off a lower tournament will be suss because it’s not like they are anonymous. Someone they know will be aware they did something unethical. And then in their public profile will be a paper trail of it for all to see.
I think it’s far less rampant than people think. Sure you can swing your rating pretty heavily when you are at 200 games (and certainly less). Then again people that treat low robustness as meaningful are just dumb. And we see examples of that over and over everywhere.
Next is the fact that there’s no real money in pool. How many people are going to actually dump over and over in leagues and tournaments enough to really move their rating just to win a thousand dollars? If you have a robust rating, it would take forever. You’d be living the most boring, unfulfilling life for quite a while just to get a fairly petty payout. It’s not a realistic ROI for the risk and stupidity you have to do to make it happen. At best is someone dumping a league game here or there when it doesn’t matter and those don’t add up like you’d think they do.
At the end of the day, far fewer people really give it what it takes to make it happen. And doing so is a blatant effort. Those people get caught. There are tools in Fargo and Salotto to catch those blatant people. The statistical analysis of unlikely results and wilds rating changes is mathematically easily detected. And they can tell it’s not happening as pervasively as the drama queens suggest.
For example, if you knew it was happening. Like you were able to name names of people that have ratings off by margins that would let them steal a tournament. Could you name a single name right here and now? Would you be willing to name a name? If you are, let’s see it. If you aren’t, then either you don’t have firsthand experience or you’re complacent to it and part of the problem.
But the truth is most people beating this drum don’t have firsthand experience. And the ones that do, Mike Page easily can look into it and always finds one of two things. (1) the offender was so egregious they already have been caught or (2) the evidence clearly shows the offender isn’t actually doing anything wrong and it just “seemed that way” to someone.
Willowbrook Wolfy
Going pro
You know what. I just thought of another angle after thinking about it. Do you play APA? And if so. What is your APA rating? Here you would probably be an SL 7/7 at 550 fargorate. At most a 7/8. There isn’t one 7/9 under a 600 fargorate I can think of. And some of the 7/8’s are over 600. But when in Vegas I play 9 ball 9’s that are only listed at 540 fargorates.
Maybe the fargorates aren’t getting manipulated. Maybe players from certain areas aren’t getting their real rating because not enough players in the area are branching out and playing out of area competition. Then their fargorate ends up lower than it should be. If the pond is small and ratings are based off guessed starter ratings this might be the case.
Last edited:
Fargorates would give APA ratings the handspan plus the 5 out in accuracy.
I don't play in an APA league. I do play two tournaments on a somewhat regular basis that go by APA ratings for the tournament handicaps. In one, the TD made me an APA8 the first time I played, and a 9 the next 2 times. He is a 640 player with lots of robustness. I can't touch him gambling.
In the second the TD started me as a 5 my first week there, then a match later made me a 6. I won the tournament. Then the next tournament made me a 7. Then the next tournament made me an 8. I only won that first time.
My fargo is currently 544/274 robustness, and I've been trying hard as hell to do well in all the tournaments I've entered.
So first you really don't have that many games in those trnmnts and do they report to Fargo?
Second I don't trust trnmnt tds that gamble with their participants. ( I assumed this from your post) He makes you a 6 then has to give you weight to play as he is a 9?
Lastly why did they move you up if you didn't win? You must have been winning just not taking 1st?
Idk man. APA in my case is arbitrary and up to the TD. Whatever their whim is. In a real APA league, I believe it’s computer controlled? But I’m not certain. I never played an actual APA league.
Fargo I have ”established” robustness which is 200. I will fluctuate some as I get more robustness, but I doubt much.
APA actual league Skill Levels are computer generated, yes. Any actual APA tournaments and league matches cannot be "arbitrary ".
With a Fargo of 550, you compare to the 7's in our APA territory. The better 6's are in the low 500s, and the 9's are in the 600s.
Compared to APA, the best thing about Fargo is that it is a centralized system that is not subject to the whims of some random LO or secret innings algorithm. If you lose a bunch of games, your rating will go down. If you win a bunch of games, your rating will go up. It's that simple.
Would you expect them to be won by players playing under their rating? Fargo is an average, everyone has days they shoot above their Fargo and days they shoot below it. Any tournament is won by players shooting at the top end of their game
Badpenguin
Well-known member
Not true as far as the LO. Before someone gets a robustness of 200, the LO can manipulate the starter rate at whim.
Two comments about this.
First, the starter guesses you are talking about are outside the system. They don't affect anybody and are merely about incorporating people who don't yet have a Fargo Rating.
The second thing is a LO can't change them at whim. There are restrictions. For instance if a player has a starter guess of 450 set and for the first 100 games has a performance level of 490, then what people see is a preliminary rating (not a Fargo Rating) of 470. That's an average of the performance and the guess.
Suppose then the LO thinks, "I REALLY think that person plays 450 speed, so I will make the starter guess 410 in an effort to get the preliminary rating to 450 (average of 410 and 490). The LO will be disappointed to learn he cannot do this. He can move the guess TOWARD performance (make it 490 or 475 or something), but he cannot move it AWAY from performance (cannot lower it in this case).
Of course the winners will shoot over their average, that's the only way to win. It's just surprising to me how high over their average they're playing....for days, not just one day.
Based on a standard distribution curve, most people should fall within about 50 points of their average for any given match. Some outliers will be greater/lower than average for any single match. However playing 60+ points higher for a full tournament tells me that their average is higher than what's on paper, no?
I have to assume everyone is practicing constantly leading up to a tournament, then just stops practicing all together afterwards
For some reason people seem to LOVE having a rating, any rating (Fargo, APA, BCA, etc) so they can compare themselves against one another. The downside is, people will always find a way to get an edge on the competition.
The simple answer may lie in the fact that your opponent just plays far below their average for any given match, which makes your slightly above average play appear even better?
Xenon256
Member
I tell you from experience it is definitely possible to play 100 above your level at 500. I got my original Fargorate from playing in a tournament. I won the tournament and finished with a Fargorate of 638. Years later I'm a much better player and a Fargorate of 491 and robustness of 822. So you can absolutely play over 100 above your ranking.
and whats the penalty if someone says something?
and is any cry foul just automatically deemed its fruadlent?
and is any cry foul just automatically deemed its fruadlent?
ive beaten 630 fargo players in an apa race
and got to the hi s did i another 600 level player in an apa race
them being 7s and me being 6
your fargo and robustness are really similar to my own
plenty of times i get bitched at playing 1pkt when im on a good day and they think im sandbagging for weight
So the TO entered you with a high starter rating based on that one tournament? How quickly did it drop en route to getting 200 games in the system?
tbf that’s a little different than an established player shooting 100 over his rating. Mike has said shooting 50 over is common, but 100 over a multi-day tournament is quite an outlier I would think.
Xenon256
Member
TO put me in as 500 from know ability even though he knew that was high for me, but didn't want complaints and I was fine with it. Took a couple months to drop below 600 and about a year to get down to below a 500. Went as low as about 450 don't remember exactly. Don't know for sure but I would say I was close to 500 at 200 games.
That tournament was races to 2 and 1, so I’d expect a lot of variance. The winner who shot +152 over his 561 rating also lost his second match 0-2 to a 519 player, then went on to win 4 races to 1 to get to the final.
Does it happen frequently in tournaments with long races?
You’re right, thanks. I just looked up last year’s 9-ball open in Austin that Fedor won, 128 players, races to 7/7, and Fedor shot +80 over par (915!) and 7 guys shot more than +100 their rating.
DigitalPool - Bridging the gap between player and technology
Create and manage your own pool leagues and tournaments and challenge other players from around the pool world.