Are pool schools worth the money?

[mikepage]

[....] and putting some accu-stat videos of GREAT PLAYERS PLAYING GREAT on order.

You may not be aware that there is no historical precedent for this. The great one-pocket players of the past learned all their moves without the benefit of accustat videos.

This watch-a-video stuff is a new fad. Folks now think they can improve their knowledge sitting in the comfort of their own living room observing the masters....

Watch a video? Sheesh...

When I learned, pool tables were uphill in both directions...

 

[randyg]

I've been fortunate enough to get lessons from many instructors. Although I've never officially been to "Pool School," I have had the pleasure of spending time with RandyG twice: at the BCA expo and recently in Frederick. If there's one thing I can say about Randy, he has a GIFT for teaching. He has a certain charisma that makes you want to learn from him.

I think lessons are always worth the money.

I've found that each instructor I've worked with (Ron Vitello, Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett, Joe Tucker, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Tom Simpson, Blackjack, and RandyG) each have their own content and skill set. Furthermore, each person had their own niche of information that was exquisite (for a lack of a better word). Each is a piece to a puzzle, imo.

I think it's good policy to see as many top instructors as you can afford. Get all the information you can --- even if you have to travel. Once your game gets to the point where small improvements are hard to come by, it's probably best you settle in with a "coach," or someone who knows your game intimately well. Dave

Wow! Do we think alike....randyg

 

[Blackjack]

Wow! Do we think alike....randyg

... make that 3 of us.

 

[GetMeThere]

You may not be aware that there is no historical precedent for this. The great one-pocket players of the past learned all their moves without the benefit of accustat videos.

This watch-a-video stuff is a new fad. Folks now think they can improve their knowledge sitting in the comfort of their own living room observing the masters....

Watch a video? Sheesh...

When I learned, pool tables were uphill in both directions...

Very cute. But of course WATCHING OTHERS who do something well is the OLDEST FORM OF LEARNING in existence. It's only the electronic aspect of the process that's new.

 

[TATE]

Talent can only get you so far.... With that you have to have knowledge in spades...

In the good old days you seemed to have hotbeds of great players. Chicago, New York, L.A./Oakland, Boston... All major metro areas where the good players beat on each other constantly and became great players...They didn't have instructors they had each other and the only way information was shared was to be a part of the subculture and be taken in under a few wings. No one gave out information for free.

You paid for instruction by the rack or set.... And you had to be an observant student because you were going to learn by watching.. Noone was going to feed it you aside from a tip here or a tip there....

Today the information they guarded so heavily is available. You can order books, instructional dvds and professional matches... You have a better chance of being able to teach yourself to play great than you ever have had in history.




Well that actually depends on how you learn...

Many people cannot learn from reading books. The printed word just will not translate for them into practical understanding. It may be reading comprehension or they may just hate reading...

Many people are what are called natural mimics.. They can watch someone do something and immediately reproduce what they visually observed... This is a rare talent but we all have the ability it's just not developed in most of us. That's one reason I like watching matches I have a decent ability in this area. I see a safety played I never thought about file it in my head and shoot it the next night over and over until I own it. Others could watch the entire accustats library and only pick up shot selections.

Watching DVDs should work as well as instruction IF the DVD actually covered what you were weak in... confirmed your strengths... And was presented so eloquently that you understood everything covered without having to digest and rewind sections in efforts to understand the materials... To this date I have yet to see THAT DVD...

SO if books don't work.. You are not a mimic.. And you just cant seem to get it from the DVDs whats left?

1)Go out and hit a million balls.. That's pretty much how the great players had to do it.... Maybe with Earl he only had to hit 400-500K but he did it by rote.

OR

2)Get some instruction and only have to it 600-800k to reach your potential. Notice I said potential you may not be wold class because we all aren't cut from that bolt of cloth

Many players have to be taught one on one... That's the best way they learn ad it's often key if they are trying to break through a barrier... Even then the lessons have to be tailored to the person...

A good instructor can look into a student's eyes and tell whether or not they "got" it or if the instructor needs to rephrase the materials and go over it again. This is their greatest skill. It's not their skill with the cue that you need but their ability to communicate knowledge that you require in a manner where you can actually comprehend and retain it.

So after all that... Back to the OP's question... Are pool schools worth it?
Short answer: Yes as long as the classes aren't too large for you to get personal attention.

I would prefer taking one on one lessons if you are lucky enough to have a good instructor close to you so they can tailor the lesson plan to you and not to just covering course materials since some material will be more useful. If you don't have someone local, book the school... Spend the days.. It's going to be a whole lot of info stuffed into a small window, but it's info you may take years to learn on your own and there may just be some small pieces/systems/tricks that you never would have dreamed up.

This is a great post.

I have learned the most just from playing experienced players - and they have learned the same way. You see one top player doing things a certain way and eventually the others pick up pieces here and there and they are all doing it.

"Playing lessons" show how it's done. Pool instruction shows "how to get it done". Pool instruction is more about finding and correcting flaws in your technique. Playing others won't do that for you.

Chris

 

[JoeyA]

This thread brings up a lot of interesting points.

I believe that one of the first things you should consider doing is to make a list of the things that you think you do well already, then another list of the things that you think you do not do well.

If you published that list here on AZB, others might chime in to let you know how much or how little you do know about playing pool.

The list of the things you do not do well could bring in an awful lot of suggestions both good and bad.

While I believe there is value in taking pool lessons from an instructor, I feel that the instructor who teaches well and plays well is the one I would choose to move me to the next step.

That being said, if you were short on money and you were serious about improving your game and you would give feedback to this Main Forum, you could possibly get some of the finest information available anywhere. Don't be a bit surprised if you get a little doo-doo from the forum. It can happen with instructors as well.

I think once you think that you have the knowledge then you can be evaluated by a professional level coach or top flight instructor.

I suggest acquiring the knowledge that you don't have first, then see if you can execute on your own.

That thread could become the longest running thread in history.

Best of luck on your new journey.

JoeyA

 

[eezbank]

This thread brings up a lot of interesting points.

I believe that one of the first things you should consider doing is to make a list of the things that you think you do well already, then another list of the things that you think you do not do well.

If you published that list here on AZB, others might chime in to let you know how much or how little you do know about playing pool.

The list of the things you do not do well could bring in an awful lot of suggestions both good and bad.

While I believe there is value in taking pool lessons from an instructor, I feel that the instructor who teaches well and plays well is the one I would choose to move me to the next step.

That being said, if you were short on money and you were serious about improving your game and you would give feedback to this Main Forum, you could possibly get some of the finest information available anywhere. Don't be a bit surprised if you get a little doo-doo from the forum. It can happen with instructors as well.

I think once you think that you have the knowledge then you can be evaluated by a professional level coach or top flight instructor.

I suggest acquiring the knowledge that you don't have first, then see if you can execute on your own.

That thread could become the longest running thread in history.

Best of luck on your new journey.

JoeyA

I think this step would surprise a lot of people.

When I hit a plateau in my game I decided to see BCA master instructor Denny Stewart. "DennyS" here on AZ. Denny helped me by fine tuning what I thought I knew and made a significant difference in how I lined up on the ball. Thinking you know something and doing it the correct way are two totally different things.

There is no doubt in my mind seeing an instructor was the right choice for me. Denny KNOWS what to look for. Teaching is his profession. I had hours of video of myself playing and I couldn't see what he noticed in the first five minutes watching me shoot.

 

[3kushn]

For cryng out loud. The guy justs wants to know if pool school is worth his time.

ANSWER: YES IT IS I WISH I HAD THE TIME. Even though I don't play pool.

Thank you Scott Lee, Mark Wilson, Little Joe. You all gave me a ton of info I'd have to spend years to figure out on my own. And it only took a couple or hours.

Randy, You're on my list. Jerry we just missed. I'll be back in Madison sometime soon. Or lets say when you're there

GMT I suppose you're a proponent of hit a million balls and that will do it.

Why do virtually all professionals have trainers??

What's wrong with someone receiving information from a professional trainer??

Are you saying I should rely on the Street to improve my game and there's no other way?? YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!


Moterators why can't I block this guy 100%

 

[JB Cases]

For cryng out loud. The guy justs wants to know if pool school is worth his time.

ANSWER: YES IT IS I WISH I HAD THE TIME. Even though I don't play pool.

Thank you Scott Lee, Mark Wilson, Little Joe. You all gave me a ton of info I'd have to spend years to figure out on my own. And it only took a couple or hours.

Randy, You're on my list. Jerry we just missed. I'll be back in Madison sometime soon. Or lets say when you're there

GMT I suppose you're a proponent of hit a million balls and that will do it.

Why do virtually all professionals have trainers??

What's wrong with someone receiving information from a professional trainer??

Are you saying I should rely on the Street to improve my game and there's no other way?? YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!


Moterators why can't I block this guy 100%

You can't block seeing his quotes using the ignore function on the forum. You have to use Super Ignore, which is a firefox add-on http://forums.azbilliards.com/blog.php?b=419

Once you do that whoever you put on it becomes non-existent as far as your forum viewing experience is concerned. You can also choose to block entire threads if you wish.

 

[neal916]

I once met a guy and had a five minute conversation. Based on that conversation I made over a quarter million dollars. You never know what you don't know, or where information will come from.

I need a name and number!

I have much to discuss with this man.

 

[elvicash]

ask thyself one question: do they have pool schools in the philippines. nope, and they dont have leagues either.

You are probably right but as group they do alot to help each other and they are a much friendlier group less shark like to each other even though they stay in action. In addition I do know that a top tier Pinoy spoke to a premier US coach about rebuilding his stroke to get the classic SPF no extra motion stroke and the elite US coach passed but was glad to have been asked. But the pinoy thought there was real value to be found in the rebuilding of the stroke. The two have anongoing interactive relationship but the pinoy still uses his original everything moves stroke and doing top quality play. But he (the pinoy) thought he could gain by the training and he really was world class at the time. I am not using names since I was not there but I am sure the above is true.

 

[Celtic]

The number of factors on whether a pool school is right for you is a long one. It depends on who the instructor/instructor is and what their teaching metholodogy is and how that relates to your current game/level.

I have taken a few lessons and a teaching school.

The BCA certified school I took from Breisath was a giant waste of time in my case. It was hugely restrictive and focused solely on rebuilding the strokes of everyone in the school to a supposed "perfect stroke", which if you have ever watched the pros does not exist. The perfect stroke for one person is not the perfect stroke for another. Keith, Earl, Efren, and SVB, and Archer all found entirely different strokes that worked for "them". The BCA class I took failed to realize this. Perhaps they have changed in the last 16 years since I took that class. Although the "stroke" posts on this forum still make it seem likey you might get stuck into "Hi, welcome to pool school, thanks for the money, now lets do 4 hours of drills meant to remove elbow drop".

I took a group lesson from Paul Potier. That was a solid investment. Paul knows the pro level game enough to realize that you cannot make someone do what does not feel natural to them. You do need to fix serious faults in a stroke, but with a guy like Paul he has enough knowledge about the actual requirements of making a ball go into a pocket with every type of spin imaginable to work with your actual stroke and tweak it, instead of attempting to completely rebuild a stroke from ground up that might not feel at all natural to you.

I also got a impromtu "lesson" from John Horsfall that was truly excellent. It was a knowledge overdose from a guy who had just nearly reached the top echelon of pool in North America. Some phenomenal tidbits of "mental game" information, some slight things you can do with your stroke to create abit more spin or reduce the effects of squirt/deflection while keeping in mind that the power of the stroke still makes finite adjustments and the ability to realise the effects of doing certain things to the cueball are in the end learned via tons of trial and error and simply shooting a load of balls.

And I will add (since he is on this thread) that I found Blackjack's old video's I watched ages ago to be very informative and the proper kind of instruction that helps a player progress and learn faster.

A lesson can certainly help, the right instructor/pro can give you some great feedback that can help you determine a hitch in your stroke that must be fixed. They can also see the areas you have problems and often see why those problems exist in your game and tell you how most pro's fix those issues.

The thing I would watch out for is the lesson where you take 10 or 20 shots and they then throw the whole stroke out the window and try to teach you the stock stroke that lesson teaches every single student they have ever taught.

 

[Celtic]

I believe everyone is in agreement that an individual must do "a lot of work on their own" of course they need to know what to work on.

It is not really rocket science. I have seen a ton of players go from hackers to A-level players and they work on "learning to shoot the balls in the pocket and get shape on the next ball.

You don't need to overcomplicate it more then that. The players that get good throw the balls on the table and shoot them down, then they throw them on the table and do it again, and then they throw them on the table and.... In time you learn the angles, you learn what the various spins do to the cueball as well as how that spin affects the shots aim. If you miss a shot badly because of spin a player getting good will grab that ball and set up the same shot and shoot it again, they will learn why they missed the shot and what they need to do to make it, they might shoot it 5 times in a row making it once they figure out they need to aim way more inside or put more bottoms on the ball, or whatever it is they learned, then they move on.

What do you need to work on? Take the balls, put them on the table, start shooting them in the pockets. Play different spins, try different things, you miss a shot? THAT is what you need to work on. Once you worked on it and figured out what you did wrong (too much left siding, aimed without enough adjustment for squirt, not hitting the ball low enought to get backspin, ect...) then shoot more shots until you find another you cannot make.

Do the above 3-4 days a week for 3 hours a day, play tournaments in between and play some matches with people better then you and watch them and what they do and you WILL get close to the peak potential you are capable of. And keep in mind that will probably not be pro level. Most people simply do not have the natural talent to be a pro, that said doing the above will make most people better then the majoritty.

 

[JAW725]

I'm 37 years old, been playing pool seriously since about 91. Don't really gamble much anymore but play a lot of tournaments. I've been wanting to improve my game a little and was just wondering if these schools I hear about are worth the money. Or is it to late? Can't teach an old dog new tricks ?

I'm sure you can learn a lot but I would go with private lessons only.

 

[elvicash]

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right.

Still, the fact remains (I assert) that the best players DIDN'T go to pool schools--and only players who are NOT the best did. If that's a fact, it's not one I'd be happy about if I were an instructor.

Another thing I'd be unhappy about as an instructor is being asked to answer what OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE I could offer to show that my instruction is actually worth the money. I would have to answer that there IS NONE--other than "testimonial evidence," which is generally good for some laughs, but not much else.

The bottom line rational conclusion is that we really have only the claims of instructors themselves to support the idea that they are worth hiring. That has been true in all performance sports. And the only times really useful objective information has been apparent has been when a single instructor has taken NUMEROUS neophytes and placed them into high professional standing. In fact that's rare--and it would be therefore reasonable to conclude that instruction that's really worth the price is also rare.

Hold on there Killer errrr GetMeThere. Do you know all the best players personally. Do you know or do you just think they all claim to be self taught. I doubt it, matter of fact you should talk to the best player you know well that will tell you how he/she came up. I bet you hear something similiar to the following. Brian old buddy I am going to out you on how you came by some of your mad skills, skills you earned and made your own.

I got a buddy who is one of the best bankers in the world Brian Gregg. He has hit the million balls, he has sent in his cash took his licks and learned from his losses all of the do it yourself stuff and I know he never took a leeson from any of the SPF style BCA terachers.

However

There was an old school player around the room we came up in he liked to give advice to the young players. This guy (Doug Schaffer) knew alot about fundamentals and alignment and stroke and he worked with Brian (BankingB) alot when he was comig up. Brian went on the road later with some elite pool players/hustlers and also spent alot of time with the great Bugs Rucker. He learned a ton from all of the above, some on how to play some on how to move and some on the action side and later tournemnt management skills. Brian will tell you he learned alot of his bank skills from Bugs. Brian is a sponge he picks up what he can put in his arsenal and is always looking to improve.

So Brian Gregg as far as I know never went to a pool school, Brian Gregg is one of the best in the world especially at his strong talent (Banks). Would Brian claim he is self taught, I doubt it and I know he has own skillset that he teaches here in Indy and he has put it together with tons of his own work but also alot of it is based on what he learned/was shown by others, and alot of the people who showed him stuff could not compete with him at the time, yet he could learn from them and he did.

He now teaches others and I have been lucky enough to get some his time and I play better for it. I have also taken lessons from quite a few of the other big name teachers and I regret none of what I have spent on lessons over the last few years I play better because of the help I got from these guys.

As for my current skills I claim no great ability but I love the game, with what I have learned from lessons I can glean more about the game because I can repeat better. I do not play a whole lot these days but when I do play I love having technique now.

When I was young I played alot and I gambled and could get out made quite few bucks but did not have the depth of knowledge I do now and I played alot in my early twenties.

In closing elvicash is YES on lessons. I am Dana Stephnson from Indy I would like to see how GetMeThere plays. BTW - I will be at the Derby.

To my pal Brian Gregg - please respond to my post about your skills and the help from others especially Doug and Bugs, In your mind did you get knowledge from others that helped get you here and if you did what did you have to do to make it your own.

 

[elvicash]

Or, maybe they decided that they enjoy life more teaching instead of the endless grind of trying to get that 1/2 ball better. Or, that the realized that the payoff of becoming a pro is really no pay off at all. Maybe they decided they have more satisfaction in watching someone they taught win their first local tournament than they ever got by just making the money in a national one. I'd be willing to bet that Randy makes a better living teaching than 90% of the "pro" players do.

Brian

I think you are right. I think Randy gets more out it than the money, he gets to know new players constantly, they are thankful for learning how to improve and he lifts up the game. He wins on all fronts and he makes a good living tha the earns. Thanks Randy, if I ever get down to Dallas I want some of your time too.

 

[lfigueroa]

The number of factors on whether a pool school is right for you is a long one. It depends on who the instructor/instructor is and what their teaching metholodogy is and how that relates to your current game/level.

I have taken a few lessons and a teaching school.

The BCA certified school I took from Breisath was a giant waste of time in my case. It was hugely restrictive and focused solely on rebuilding the strokes of everyone in the school to a supposed "perfect stroke", which if you have ever watched the pros does not exist. The perfect stroke for one person is not the perfect stroke for another. Keith, Earl, Efren, and SVB, and Archer all found entirely different strokes that worked for "them". The BCA class I took failed to realize this. Perhaps they have changed in the last 16 years since I took that class. Although the "stroke" posts on this forum still make it seem likey you might get stuck into "Hi, welcome to pool school, thanks for the money, now lets do 4 hours of drills meant to remove elbow drop".

I took a group lesson from Paul Potier. That was a solid investment. Paul knows the pro level game enough to realize that you cannot make someone do what does not feel natural to them. You do need to fix serious faults in a stroke, but with a guy like Paul he has enough knowledge about the actual requirements of making a ball go into a pocket with every type of spin imaginable to work with your actual stroke and tweak it, instead of attempting to completely rebuild a stroke from ground up that might not feel at all natural to you.

I also got a impromtu "lesson" from John Horsfall that was truly excellent. It was a knowledge overdose from a guy who had just nearly reached the top echelon of pool in North America. Some phenomenal tidbits of "mental game" information, some slight things you can do with your stroke to create abit more spin or reduce the effects of squirt/deflection while keeping in mind that the power of the stroke still makes finite adjustments and the ability to realise the effects of doing certain things to the cueball are in the end learned via tons of trial and error and simply shooting a load of balls.

And I will add (since he is on this thread) that I found Blackjack's old video's I watched ages ago to be very informative and the proper kind of instruction that helps a player progress and learn faster.

A lesson can certainly help, the right instructor/pro can give you some great feedback that can help you determine a hitch in your stroke that must be fixed. They can also see the areas you have problems and often see why those problems exist in your game and tell you how most pro's fix those issues.

The thing I would watch out for is the lesson where you take 10 or 20 shots and they then throw the whole stroke out the window and try to teach you the stock stroke that lesson teaches every single student they have ever taught.

Man, you are right on the money about instructors that try and force you into their idealized mold. As you say, if you come across an instructor that tells you they're going to tear it all down and build you back up, you should run for the hills.

Lou Figueroa

 

[randyg]

I think you are right. I think Randy gets more out it than the money, he gets to know new players constantly, they are thankful for learning how to improve and he lifts up the game. He wins on all fronts and he makes a good living tha the earns. Thanks Randy, if I ever get down to Dallas I want some of your time too.

Thanks Dana. I happen to know Brian Gregg personally. Not as a friend but a great player. When I ran The McDermott 9-Ball Tour in your area I met many great players. My God they just kept coming out of nowhere.

Any time I have I will share with you, Merry Christmas.
SPF=randyg

 

[drifter444]

pool schools

Yes, I think a pool school is worth the money. I spent 3 day's in Madison, WI at the pool room owned by Jerry Briesath. I thought I was a good pool player but he showed me how much better I could be. If you love the game of pool, why not spend the time and money with a profesional and get all the knowledge you can get. Jerry used a very valuable tool...a camera on a tripod. What a great way to really show someone what their doing and what changes can be made. Also he really brought home the fact that I can learn so much from that White ball. How good or bad I hit it. Then, to go a step further, how he taught me how to learn from my mistakes. That was the best thing I learned from him. But you have to know how to evaluate and be critical of your play. Both the cue ball and the object ball never lie. You may already know about the stuff I'm talking about but 18 years ago I did not pay much attention to why I was playing so bad. I just thought I needed to practice more. And speaking of practice...Bert Kinister IS the MAN. I like his passion for the game and the mind set he has about practicing. Enough said, Good Luck

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Instruction

First notice I said instruction not instructors. Every player can help every player. Know someone better than yourself? Go schmooze that guy, tell him what a beautiful stroke he has and could he help you with a few things. Even lesser players have some skill they do better than you. Everybody can show you something. You are not tapping the well! I know great players who are astounded when asked for help. We have a fellow named Benny Branch from Guthrie Ok. Who in his prime was at least a 9 or 10 speed and is glad to help people to learn. He might go on for an hour before he stops. These are the type of people who make this sport great. Our league op tried to start his own instruction thing(certified and all) but wanted you to enroll in a $450 program. Guess how much response he got? A little. Actually has helped a few people but not the moneymaker they expected. I do think there are some schools that would help if you want to spend the bucks. I have spent money chasing things much more insignificant than pool.