Are The Bonus Ball Players Under Contract?

Not only that, but each week taking out all the balls to switch the balls to BB ball set. And do Diamond and Valley tables know to kick out the balls or not, plus isn't it a spot up balls game, so unlocked tables??

dorabelle said:
Every bar is gonna have to buy how many sets of balls? I can't see that being a good time for them.
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No, there is no competition clause! Not as long as we don't feel the need for that! I am from a country that believes in free enterprise. If a team is scheduled to play, we expect the player to play. You don't see NFL players leaving the NFL to play games in the CFL.

However, we don't see ourselves as the NFL. We are a new league, we are a team league and we are open to our players missing some matches if they so desire! A replacement player will be found for that show! Having said that, i can't see why a player would want to lose a guaranteed pay check to pay an entry fee and travel and lodging unless they were very confident they coulld make the top four! Am i right or wrong?


.
 
vpbb123 said:
No, there is no competition clause! Not as long as we don't feel the need for that! I am from a country that believes in free enterprise. If a team is scheduled to play, we expect the player to play. You don't see NFL players leaving the NFL to play games in the CFL.

However, we don't see ourselves as the NFL. We are a new league, we are a team league and we are open to our players missing some matches if they so desire! A replacement player will be found for that show! Having said that, i can't see why a player would want to lose a guaranteed pay check to pay an entry fee and travel and lodging unless they were very confident they coulld make the top four! Am i right or wrong?


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Or if they have a bigger money match? Well that's good news. Hope you guys keep it that way.
That being said this could impact major events.
Is everyone gonna be playing bonus ball instead of going to DCC?
 
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Bonus Ball

vpbb123 said:
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it! (You seem to be getting confrontational and that is not necessary. I also believe your comments show that you do not understand the makeup of the American pool player - or whomever plays in the events.)

I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! i hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.

In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this. (Again, this is NOT about Larry and him paying the price. I want this to work for Larry. BUT a little notice of the delay would have gone a long ways to show concern for the players and friendly competitors. I do not consider BB a competitor, but you might. I just want pool to be promoted properly. BTW - you do realize I went out of my way to get the studio 8 tables to help you get the Certificate of Occupancy, right? They were delivered on Wednesday - which was on very short notice).

Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! (What missing cash? We are adding the $25,000 to the 10-Ball. IF we did not charge an entry fee we would have 1,000 people trying to play in it. When YOU make this kind of statement, you are causing people to wonder if you know what your are talking about.) That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! (If you only knew what we do! Do not confuse me with other 'promoters' that do not perform). This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! (I am glad you clarified that because Larry has shown me a good degree of respect. I think I have earned that because I have treated him with respect.) I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it! (It is too bad your post comes across so arrogant. I have said many times I hope Bonus Ball works out. But you seem to be trying to make this a personal assault. That is not good for anyone. Perhaps walking in the trenches a few years will build up your character.)

Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!
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I have put my comments in the paragraph.
I think you should pay attention to the style that Lenny uses - it is much more professional.

Mark Griffin
 
Vpbb123
I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it!
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You could have "OUR PLAYERS" on their weeks off. So the Pros priority is Bonus Ball? What happens to them if they make some other event their priority?
 
dorabelle said:
Vpbb123


You could have "OUR PLAYERS" on their weeks off. So the Pros priority is Bonus Ball? What happens to them if they make some other event their priority?
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I think that if players make another event a priority over bonus ball that it would mean that pool is moving up in the world.

So far, as far as i know the only player to turn down the guarantied money is Shane, many would also say that he's one of the few players who makes money playing pool, hell darren appleton is selling broken cues, cases and maybe if you ask nicely a kidney in the for sale section...lol.
 
vpbb123 said:
We have followed the letter of the law to the rule and as Fatboy states...it has been insane. Nevertheless, it's a construction delay that is out of Larry's hands! The players respect that he chose to give them some Christmas money. Sure, it is disappointing as hell for Larry to have to postpone after believing that all was perfect in a imperfect world. Like I said before, our professional football team has a new arena being built and it is now a year delayed and a few million over budget.

I listen to Mark and Justin cry time and time again on the pod casts about the sad state of the industry but at least Larry is actually trying to do something for the professionals! I say the same thing as them and Justin is ready to crucify me. I call a spade a spade. We need a professional league that does not ask to take $500 out of everyone's pocket and then letting them to play. Forget the game (which plays absolutely fantastic I might add) forget the construction delays, this is all about treating the professional players with the respect due to them.

Trust me, if the players would have begged Larry not to play the game of Bonus Ball, Larry would not be playing Bonus Ball. The real deal here is that Bonus Ball is the game they want to play, at least the majority of them. There are probably a few pretenders out there but they are quickly going to learn that this is a shot makers game, a thinkers game, the men will weed out the boys!

As far as the statement some players don't know the rules...how can you call yourself a professional and come to camp not knowing the rules? If this is true then this delay is heaven sent! Players like Appleton, Archer, Morris and Deuel, just to mention a few, that do know the rules will eat you alive! When I go to a new race track, you better believe I know the rules and play by those rules. It's called pride and professionalism.
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So we cry and I want to crucify you?

Sweet.

All I want you to do is meet a date or make it known when you won't. No different than any other promoter. How do you not know you are month behind schedule on opening? The place isnt finished and just waiting on inspection. Its still a construction site.

I realize you are the hype man and do not make any decisions so its nothing personal. I also realize you are used to hearing nothing but positive things from people hoping to get some money while its flowing so views from someone not on the company draw can sound harsh but I have no desire to "crucify" you or anyone else on your team.

Through its lack of communication Bonus Ball is making things worse not better at the moment. Instead of some canned statement about how amazing a game its going to be and how we have the coolest purple lights in the new studio you guys might just simply look around and say "Well the bathrooms are not finished, the floors not done and wont be for weeks....lets send out a PR ASAP explaining the delay out of simple professional courtesy." Instead of just bumping dates a month at a time at the last minute.
 
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Fast Lenny said:
As far as TAR matches go, its a good opportunity for TAR to get stuff going as it has been awhile since we have seen something. I am not sure how Bonus Ball has affected players going to play considering its up to the players if they want to or not. Two players saying they are booked that weekend can get away from Bonus Ball for that time if they feel its worthwhile.

I imagine during these next couple weeks many players will be here in Vegas with lots of free time so you or Justin should make some phone calls and set something up. TAR will save money on expenses of hotel/airfare, the players make some more money and we all get treated to some good matches which we all enjoy. I know your selection is limited mainly because the two players need to be marketable so its worthwhile because you cannot put in two guys that no one really cares to see which i think is the real reason we have seen Shane so many times which I will gladly watch again but some might be ASO (All Shaned Out). I still am pulling for a Shane vs Frost one pocket match.

I am sure you could promote something quickly (1 week) since the marketing usually goes no further then this site and Facebook along with taking a little time to make a flier. With all the players here too I am sure they will come to sweat it also and maybe get in the booth which would be nice for our ears. I for one do not want to see TAR fade away, I enjoy the matches and have watched nearly all of them. I think people are not seeing the big picture though, if Bonus Ball takes off worldwide then those players become better known and more marketable. Now when you put on a TAR match instead of having a few hundred PPVs you might have several thousand, TAR makes more money and so do the players with better paydays.

As far as Bonus Ball owing anything to anyone in the industry other than the players, they do not. There is a real reason why the people making money in the industry do not work together which is mainly because it is a business, it should be competitive. If Bonus Ball really wanted to screw other people in the industry they could just lock the players in where they cannot play anything besides Bonus Ball but it would not be fair to the players which is what really matters. If a player chooses to stay in Vegas instead of going to an event then it shows that either the pay out for that event is very poor or they just do not want to gamble on laying out serious coin to take a shot to finish top 3 and then sweat maybe getting paid on top of it which is kind of like that saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I know there are people trying to put money in the players pockets, you and Greg Sullivan add good money to events but all these events with added money are not free rolls at the cash, they have entry fees, expenses and so on, for the majority its a losing proposition. We as non pro players do not always get it, we see $10,000 first place if they win, but what if they finish 5th/6th, they probably do not even break even. I cannot imagine living like that, the pressure of having to perform at such a high level knowing if you lose you are broke and just laid out the last of your money to play the event.

This coming year though I think any event in Vegas for pro players will have a better turnout such as the BCAPL pro events since many will be living here and the dates do not conflict it appears. I would love to see Bonus Ball do its season here every year on a set schedule and then more tournaments here in Las Vegas, cheap rooms, flights, more to do for everyone and the players have less expenses for an event because they already live here but that would all make too much sense anyway. Lets just have the next tournament in the Alaskan Bush where people are trapped and cannot do anything but be stuck in a place with little or nothing to do besides one casino such as Derby or Turning Stone which most will agree are terrible locations but great tournaments. It is not rocket science that your league event and APA do so well here in Vegas, people look at coming to the event not just for pool but to have a little vacation and fun.

The players need a salary, guaranteed money to showcase their skills and talent, they have devoted their lives to this game and are mostly broke. I enjoy most games but no one has really figured out how to make money off of pool and still make the pro players a real living at the same time. I think some people out there like to see the players struggle and the game down and in the dumps, the game would not be the same if pool was not this dark shady subculture, some get off on that and being around it. That is why pool players are so approachable too and easily accessible, they will even stay at your home if you let them. You do not see athletes in other sports as accessible to people as pool players, I would say that has something to do with money.

Everyone says the industry is fractured but its really broken and needs change because the current formula does not work except for a few people at the top making money but how does it work for the players? I think if the players told you the real deal without being barred from events or having ill will from promoters then you would be stunned I think, it really would be eye opening. Some think they have a clue but really do not know anything that really is going on but when you talk to players who trust you then you see things from their point of view.

I think certain events the players will choose to play Bonus Ball instead of going to a tournament that does not pay out well so either the prize funds get better to attract players or they do not have the star power. With most events if the player does not finish really high in it they lose money and in these times most cant afford to do that. I know for the fans who go to certain tournaments they will have some disappointment but they can still watch them play but the game will just be Bonus Ball. I say do not hate Bonus Ball, hate the tournaments that cant pay to have top talent there, the players should not have to suffer any longer.

P.S. Sorry for the book but I am sure most will not read it anyway and just post more senseless comments.
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We see eye to eye on most things Lenny. My biggest problem is the players I have talked to can't give me any confirmed dates because they don't know anything for sure. I have been doing this shit for a minute. I know whats involved getting two guys in the same place at the same time so when I say BB has created scheduling problems due to lack of communication I'm not just making things up.

When all the guys are in Vegas and everyone figures out what is really going to happen it could make doing some TAR things easier but frankly there are only about five or six players in BB that work for what we do so its not some giant windfall for TAR.

The biggest problem is that you know WAY more about whats going on than the players. Part of that is you actually care to know whats going on but the other part is no one on the BB team is putting out info in a timely solid manner based on the players I am talking to.
 
Tough industry. Tougher than most.

And more % passionate people involved.

So much.... and so little at stake.
 
Mark Griffin said:
Lenny, thanks for your thoughts and moments. We are not that far apart on our opinions. I ONLY stated a little notice of the delay would have shown some consideration for others in the same industry.

I tried calling you earlier today and you were not available.

Wishing everyone the best-(and please hope others quit twisting my complaint into something different).

Mark Griffin
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Mark, you know I appreciate all you do for pool. You have been in the industry for a long time and me just a few years so our viewpoints are a little different but that is okay, does not make me right about anything because I am probably wrong a good deal of the time but too stubborn and a little stupid to realize that. My little contribution to the game is a drop in the bucket compared to what you have done and I expect to see you in the hall of fame for your effort and love of the game.

I just really want the best for the players and I know you cannot just put up $25,000 every month and let the players free roll at it because that money has to come somewhere. You can get that money with the right person out there getting sponsorship dollars and getting a cut of it, someone who is not paid salary but a percentage will be able to it if ambitious enough, well spoken and personable who actually lays out exactly what a big sponsor will get in return. Perhaps you have someone on the CSI team who does that but if not it might be a great idea to get someone with experience to go out there.

I really think this years BCAPL will be the best one yet with the venue change and all the players being in town already. They only have to pay entrees and no other expenses like hotel/airfare being in town already, the players I spoke to are excited about it and hopefully more tournaments popping up. I do hope that you have more pro events during the Bonus Ball down time because they should be a great success. I do also hope we have more TAR matches because with the challenge matches the players can make some good money which even though I like gambling there is too much crap involved with it.

I think this coming year will be a good one for pro pool in the US. I am not delusional thinking Bonus Ball is the answer, it could totally not work out because for it to be successful much must go right. You can have the greatest thing since sliced bread and if its not presented and marketed then how does anyone get hooked on it? Pool is way under marketed because not many people higher a professional marketing person or team to get out there and sell to sponsors outside of pool. Perhaps pool needs a sports agent to pull some sponsors, they do work off percentages so they might get out there and make it happen. One thing is for sure it needs to attract more then just us diehards here on the forums to really work and make money to support this venture and pro pool.

I do not know if this interest anyone but I know many on here have run or do run successful businesses, its a good read I saw awhile back that makes a ton of sense for seeking pool sponsors by looking at pool as a product and something worthwhile for investors/sponsors to get involved in. http://www.inc.com/guides/present-your-business-plan.html
 
Finally a thread that will get Bonus Ball a ton of attention so that when the season starts, people will be checking it out. There is no bad press.
 
JCIN said:
We see eye to eye on most things Lenny. My biggest problem is the players I have talked to can't give me any confirmed dates because they don't know anything for sure. I have been doing this shit for a minute. I know whats involved getting two guys in the same place at the same time so when I say BB has created scheduling problems due to lack of communication I'm not just making things up.

When all the guys are in Vegas and everyone figures out what is really going to happen it could make doing some TAR things easier but frankly there are only about five or six players in BB that work for what we do so its not some giant windfall for TAR.

The biggest problem is that you know WAY more about whats going on than the players. Part of that is you actually care to know whats going on but the other part is no one on the BB team is putting out info in a timely solid manner based on the players I am talking to.
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I think the players will get settled in here soon enough and things should go smoother for everyone. It is a bit overwhelming going into something new for all of us involved but this is good for pool and the players if it all works out. I think some players have better ideas of what is going on from being here a few months ago as we all sat in a board room and could openly discuss things. The new guys so to speak are not quite sure about what is really going on but they will know a great deal more tomorrow about everything when we have a meeting with everyone.

One thing people do not understand is these guys are under so much pressure to perform playing this game because if they do not win they do not eat which is why players make savers and we see some of the negative sides of pool. When I hear people say they would not make savers and this or that you know they are recreational players who have money but if you really need the money which most of the pros do it happens.

I cannot wait to see this game played with positive happy pool players without all the negativity and moves people pull that sometimes are desperate because the rent money is on the line. We need to get away from all that BS and I hope they do not let certain players act like they have in the past although it might make for some great TV moments if its not overdone like in the Earl and Shane 10 footer match.

If the players have money hopefully that negative tension will not be as present and attitudes will change even when they are playing TAR matches or tournament matches anywhere. I do hope to see a TAR match soon, hopefully I will not be tied up and can come and sweat it. A round robin might be an interesting idea like Accu-stats just did with the Make it Happen, very cool event they had that seemed to be a success since they are having another.
 
Fast Lenny said:
I think the players will get settled in here soon enough and things should go smoother for everyone. It is a bit overwhelming going into something new for all of us involved but this is good for pool and the players if it all works out. I think some players have better ideas of what is going on from being here a few months ago as we all sat in a board room and could openly discuss things. The new guys so to speak are not quite sure about what is really going on but they will know a great deal more tomorrow about everything when we have a meeting with everyone.

One thing people do not understand is these guys are under so much pressure to perform playing this game because if they do not win they do not eat which is why players make savers and we see some of the negative sides of pool. When I hear people say they would not make savers and this or that you know they are recreational players who have money but if you really need the money which most of the pros do it happens.

I cannot wait to see this game played with positive happy pool players without all the negativity and moves people pull that sometimes are desperate because the rent money is on the line. We need to get away from all that BS and I hope they do not let certain players act like they have in the past although it might make for some great TV moments if its not overdone like in the Earl and Shane 10 footer match.

If the players have money hopefully that negative tension will not be as present and attitudes will change even when they are playing TAR matches or tournament matches anywhere. I do hope to see a TAR match soon, hopefully I will not be tied up and can come and sweat it. A round robin might be an interesting idea like Accu-stats just did with the Make it Happen, very cool event they had that seemed to be a success since they are having another.
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I do hope the pros can survive playing pool, but I did watch two matches of bonus ball on youtube, and I will be honest in that I do not understand what makes bonus ball a great game.
 
ChrisBanks said:
I do hope the pros can survive playing pool, but I did watch two matches of bonus ball on youtube, and I will be honest in that I do not understand what makes bonus ball a great game.
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That is totally understandable as many feel that way about lots of games, I personally get a little bored with watching rotation games and enjoy one pocket which is the least popular game besides straight pool and banks.
 
JCIN said:
I am figuring around a $2,000,000 per season nut for this thing. If they dont really expect to make anything for the first couple of seasons thats starts to add up to real money.

PPV wont even pay production costs. Nothing in pool has ever had a 1000 unique paid PPV. If Bonus Ball breaks that record two times over and gets 2000 paid per week it still doesn't cover player payroll (not even counting the million dollar prize fund) TV is the only viable option I can see to ever come close to the kind of money required to make it viable long term.

If you get TV then you can sell merchandise and advertising at a level that may begin to offset the costs of doing the thing. Owning the whole game lock and barrel is an interesting approach and probably pitches well to investors. Its been said the main focus is going after non-pool fans which sounds great in theory, you just have to compete with every other entertainment industry on earth.

I'll be damned if I can see how it works but then I am far from a good businessman so that doesnt really mean much. In the grand scheme of things I guess people shoot four or five million on small business ideas all the time in this country.
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Well, they could produce content and sell that content to any network willing to buy it.

Don't forget that the WPT was rejected by just about every major channel including ESPN. Finally the Travel Channel took a shot and the rest is history.

To me I see so many upsides to this with all the talent captive for months. I don't know what all they have planned but I know what I would do if I had so many players and millions to spend.
 
ChrisBanks said:
I do hope the pros can survive playing pool, but I did watch two matches of bonus ball on youtube, and I will be honest in that I do not understand what makes bonus ball a great game.
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You don't see the skill needed to play this game at a high level? I mean it's got elements of every game in it and you need to be really good all at aspects of the game to play it well.

It's got great offense, great defense, banking, kicking, safety play, 14.1 break balls, strategy, serious shot making, I mean I don't see much that is not appealing as a player.

If I walked into a pool room and I saw people playing this game for money I'd be all over it wanting to get in on it.
 
JB Cases said:
You don't see the skill needed to play this game at a high level? I mean it's got elements of every game in it and you need to be really good all at aspects of the game to play it well.

It's got great offense, great defense, banking, kicking, safety play, 14.1 break balls, strategy, serious shot making, I mean I don't see much that is not appealing as a player.

If I walked into a pool room and I saw people playing this game for money I'd be all over it wanting to get in on it.
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I'll go back and watch again. I am a lover of all the games, even 8-ball (but not so much).
 
I'm trying to remain positive about Bonus Ball. I remember the storm before the IPT launch, so I'm going to try to give this entity the benefit of the doubt.

But there's a 500-pound gorilla that lurks in the background that remains mute. I have kept mum about it, but now that I've heard from three different sources about it, I'm going to bring it to the fore on this thread and see how it's handled.

It is rumored that Bonus Ball owes money for services rendered to Canadian Jim Wych and has not paid him, at least as of the date of this writing. This doesn't set a good precedent for Bonus Ball and how it pays for services rendered.

Jim and Billy depicted below.
 

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So no ones gonna be at the DCC because they are playing BB
What if this thing damages major events until they find out they can't make money at it. How are you generating income again? PPV?
 
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