ChrisBanks
Banned
you're wise to consider that.
Are The Bonus Ball Players Under Contract?
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
you're wise to consider that.
I really don't think the WPT is apples to apples here. They made TV after Moneymaker changed the world on ESPN. Plus WPT prize funds come from player entries. Its two completely different models. A better comparison would be the UFC and their initial deal with Spike. They used a reality show (that they funded entirely) to get in the door and then show their competitions as a compliment to it. This approach seems like a no brainer for BB. 36 players in Vegas for six months. Thats entertainment.
I do agree that having all those players in one place for that long provides some interesting opportunities along with some interesting challenges. I guess my point is why not have TV from the beginning with that type of budget instead of the build it and then sell it approach? With the budget they claim to be working with lots of things are possible. Building a full grown 12 team league and facility seems like they are doing it backwards to me. I would spend the money on getting TV first with a smaller footprint and then build out. Take a page out of the UFC playbook and shoot a show to get you in the door first. Of course there is still a very good chance that wouldnt work.
I can see BB creating something cool and interesting if things fall right. A lot of the concepts make a lot sense but the overall execution up to this point leaves me scratching my head how this thing survives under its own weight. It not only has to break even but generate profit to survive at the funding levels stated thus far. Eventually those investors are going to stop feeding the beast.
My concern is that all the flopping around doesnt screw up things any worse than they already are. Its the same old story though. Someone throws some money around with a random murky plan with no real visible plan for financial viability and everyone loses their mind. All that said....in the end it comes down to something my grandfather used to say:
"Son...thats their chicken. They can fvck it however they want."
Am I the only one overcome by sadness that BB no longer is short for me?
You, Barry Berhman and Bonus Ball.
Maybe we need to add roman numerals.
You will always be BBI to me buddy.
I hope the pro players can earn as much as they can with Bonus Ball -- while they can.
I'm sorry, but this has shades of IPT written all over it. When IPT came to the fore, everybody -- just like now with Bonus Ball -- was excited at the amount of money being poured into it, to the tune of at least 5- to $6 million by my estimation, maybe 10.
Without a way to turn a profit, Bonus Ball will end up in the same spot as the IPT. Enjoy it while it's happening, though. It is exciting.
Sooner or later, the purse strings of Bonus Ball will realize that this is just like feed the monkey and watch him sh*t. I wonder how many millions it will take before this realization comes to the fore.
Meanwhile, congratulations to each and every pro player involved. I'm happy to see them finally earn a decent paycheck. Being in Las Vegas, though, I hope they can hang onto their money and not lose it all due to the traditional Vegas distractions.
I'm sorry, but this has shades of IPT written all over it. When IPT came to the fore, everybody -- just like now with Bonus Ball -- was excited at the amount of money being poured into it, to the tune of at least 5- to $6 million by my estimation, maybe 10.
Without a way to turn a profit, Bonus Ball will end up in the same spot as the IPT. Enjoy it while it's happening, though. It is exciting.
Sooner or later, the purse strings of Bonus Ball will realize that this is just like feed the monkey and watch him sh*t. I wonder how many millions it will take before this realization comes to the fore.
Meanwhile, congratulations to each and every pro player involved. I'm happy to see them finally earn a decent paycheck. Being in Las Vegas, though, I hope they can hang onto their money and not lose it all due to the traditional Vegas distractions.
Nope.
As I understand the broad strokes any player can skip a week they just have to have a sub play in their spot. They don't get paid for that week though the sub does. Based on the schedule on the website not all teams play every week. Early on it looks like teams have a bye week. No clue how the new start date affects things.
IMO the biggest winners of this structure are, for lack of a better term, the second tier players. A guy who may not take top five very often in open events will make more with Bonus Ball. A guy who is a threat to win anything he enters not so much. So it might be in his interest to play the points events ($25K added). But if he does then how does that affect the team? Plus Matchroom uses points events to pick for Mosconi. Its an interesting dynamic.
For all the money being paid no one but the first or second place is going to really hit a lick. ALLEGEDLY (no I wont reveal my source) third place ends up paying $32K total for the season if he plays all 22 weeks plus the playoffs. Second is $42K and winners get $62K. That includes weekly salary and prize fund and is before taxes. So its decent money and a good opportunity but its not life changing. Considering travel cost or paying for a second residence in Vegas plus the time commitment it makes sense for some guys and is a gamble for others. Matchroom is still going to get who they want each December IMO.
Originally Posted by vpbb123 View Post
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it! (You seem to be getting confrontational and that is not necessary. I also believe your comments show that you do not understand the makeup of the American pool player - or whomever plays in the events.)(What is confrontational about saying professional players should not have to pay entry fees? It is what I believe in.)
I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! I hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.
In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this. (Again, this is NOT about Larry and him paying the price. I want this to work for Larry. BUT a little notice of the delay would have gone a long ways to show concern for the players and friendly competitors. I do not consider BB a competitor, but you might. I just want pool to be promoted properly. BTW - you do realize I went out of my way to get the studio 8 tables to help you get the Certificate of Occupancy, right? They were delivered on Wednesday - which was on very short notice).(The players were scheduled to come a week in advance for a training camp. They came as scheduled. You did a great thing by giving Larry those tables, I saw the bill.)
Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! (What missing cash? We are adding the $25,000 to the 10-Ball. IF we did not charge an entry fee we would have 1,000 people trying to play in it. When YOU make this kind of statement, you are causing people to wonder if you know what your are talking about.)(I do know what Im talking about. I found sponsorship money for years. If you did not notice our first professional tournament had Wendy's, Canad Inns and about 8 other corporate companies that supported that event)
That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! (If you only knew what we do! Do not confuse me with other 'promoters' that do not perform). (I know very well what you do, I have given you lot's of money to your BCA pool league over the years. I appreciate the work it takes to run tournaments, I promoted the most successful Eight Ball tournament to ever last in Winnipeg. It is still filled to capacity, week after week, to this day!)
This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! (I am glad you clarified that because Larry has shown me a good degree of respect. I think I have earned that because I have treated him with respect.)(I am speaking my mind and that's what a forum is for. You have never spoke your mind, huh? I hear it all the time on your podcasts. You are never afraid to bash APA, Bonus Ball or anything else if you can and you have.)
I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it! (It is too bad your post comes across so arrogant. I have said many times I hope Bonus Ball works out. But you seem to be trying to make this a personal assault. That is not good for anyone. Perhaps walking in the trenches a few years will build up your character.)(It is not personal but it is my opinion, if the shoe fits... you tell me why you hope Bonus Ball works out, this will be interesting.)
Here is why I hope the WPBL works out. There will be matches that I can watch in a team format that is not ran once a year by Barry Hearns. I will be able to follow my favorite team week to week. I love statistics. I love seeing who is the actual top scoring player in the league. I like seeing which player is improving and which team will end up the champion. I want to see other amateur players that quit leagues once they hit a certain level come back to pool and play this strategic and well structured game. I want to see other amateur players learn this game and play it because I like to see the smile when they discover just how good the game plays! www.wpbl.tv
This post was a general statement on why I don't believe professional players should be paying large entry fees. I realize that entry fees are necessary in amateur tournaments. This post is my opinion and not meant to please everyone that the shoe fits.
Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!
Mark, I have always stated that professionals players should not have to pay entry fees! Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, but if the shoe fits, wear it! (You seem to be getting confrontational and that is not necessary. I also believe your comments show that you do not understand the makeup of the American pool player - or whomever plays in the events.)(What is confrontational about saying professional players should not have to pay entry fees? It is what I believe in.)
I come from a racing back ground. I pay a small entry fee which basically covers our insurance when someone is hurt or killed! As a racing promoter, i hustled my butt to find corporate advertisers to cover my drivers payout! I hustled to bring in fans! Our payout comes from sponsorship, fans and advertisers.
In Bonus Ball, we had our first tournament based on the same idea! As promoters, we put up a $30,000 added tournament with no entry fee! We got off our asses and found the money and left the players out of the equation. That is how professional players are treated in Canada. Hockey or football, we don't ask them players to pay to play. That is all that I am saying! Great, you added so many thousands of dollars and we wanted to have our season over not to over lap your major tournaments. Larry has paid the price for this. (Again, this is NOT about Larry and him paying the price. I want this to work for Larry. BUT a little notice of the delay would have gone a long ways to show concern for the players and friendly competitors. I do not consider BB a competitor, but you might. I just want pool to be promoted properly. BTW - you do realize I went out of my way to get the studio 8 tables to help you get the Certificate of Occupancy, right? They were delivered on Wednesday - which was on very short notice).(The players were scheduled to come a week in advance for a training camp. They came as scheduled. You did a great thing by giving Larry those tables, I saw the bill.)
Give the professionals a break and drop the entry fees and let's see you hustle and find a sponsor to cover this missing cash! (What missing cash? We are adding the $25,000 to the 10-Ball. IF we did not charge an entry fee we would have 1,000 people trying to play in it. When YOU make this kind of statement, you are causing people to wonder if you know what your are talking about.)(I do know what Im talking about. I found sponsorship money for years. If you did not notice our first professional tournament had Wendy's, Canad Inns and about 8 other corporate companies that supported that event)
That is what promoters need to do! That's what I'd like to see the next TAR podcast about. Not how bad the industry is, or how Bonus Ball construction delays are hurting your TAR events, but what Mark Griffen can do to turn it around! (If you only knew what we do! Do not confuse me with other 'promoters' that do not perform). (I know very well what you do, I have given you lot's of money to your BCA pool league over the years. I appreciate the work it takes to run tournaments, I promoted the most successful Eight Ball tournament to ever last in Winnipeg. It is still filled to capacity, week after week, to this day!)
This is not a Bonus Ball representative speaking out, this is Barry Bremner speaking out! (I am glad you clarified that because Larry has shown me a good degree of respect. I think I have earned that because I have treated him with respect.)(I am speaking my mind and that's what a forum is for. You have never spoke your mind, huh? I hear it all the time on your podcasts. You are never afraid to bash APA, Bonus Ball or anything else if you can and you have.)
I call a spade a spade! It's a free country in Canada and the United States so don't blame us if TAR can't schedule because of us. TAR can have Shane and many other players playing Ten Ball any time you want! I stated you could have our players on their weeks off! You just got five weeks to spread your wealth, have at it! (It is too bad your post comes across so arrogant. I have said many times I hope Bonus Ball works out. But you seem to be trying to make this a personal assault. That is not good for anyone. Perhaps walking in the trenches a few years will build up your character.)(It is not personal but it is my opinion, if the shoe fits... you tell me why you hope Bonus Ball works out, this will be interesting.)
Here is why I hope the WPBL works out. There will be matches that I can watch in a team format that is not ran once a year by Barry Hearns. I will be able to follow my favorite team week to week. I love statistics. I love seeing who is the actual top scoring player in the league. I like seeing which player is improving and which team will end up the champion. I want to see other amateur players that quit leagues once they hit a certain level come back to pool and play this strategic and well structured game. I want to see other amateur players learn this game and play it because I like to see the smile when they discover just how good the game plays! www.wpbl.tv
This post was a general statement on why I don't believe professional players should be paying large entry fees. I realize that entry fees are necessary in amateur tournaments. This post is my opinion and not meant to please everyone that the shoe fits.
Barry Bremner, amateur pool player!
Of the players listed on the Bonus Ball rosters (I havent checked, just was curious) how many of them made $26,000 last year? (keeping in mind Bonus Ball is scheduled for only 26 weeks, so its only 6 months) I know players like Darren or Shane make good money every year, Im sure they can also write off the travel cost if they pay taxes on their winnings (not my business either)
If the players were smart, (which rarely happens) they'd take their guaranteed income (JOB) and be happy with it. Us common folk, who have to grind out 40,50,60,70 etc hours a week (maybe you dont, but I do) do it because we want guaranteed money.
Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors.
I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.
Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.
Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious.
As long as the company that you work for generates income.
Maybe the funds will be held in escrow? Im not sure whats up with the cash, I assume they'll be paying out and then hoping to recoup what they spent in other ways to off-set the initial payouts?
That's a good question. I'd love to see one of the player contracts.
JAM SAID: Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors.
I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.
Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.
Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious.
I answered Mark back the same way he answered me. It's only fair. Again, it has nothing to do really with Bonus Ball. It is my opinion on charging professional players large entry fees. I think it is wrong. My opinion. Why I want the WPBL personally to succeed is again my own feelings. I'm a statistic fanatic.
On a league matter that you have asked about...of course I know Jimmy!
He is a great guy! I wish Jim was still promoting but Larry and Jim agreed to part ways, but it had nothing to do with non-payment of funds. That is a personal business disagreement and is no reflection on either gentleman. Nothing personal, simply business. I can't wait to hear Jim announcing the Mosconi Cup! Of all the nine ball announcers, I like him a lot! Well, I'm off to Las Vegas. Anyone wanting to play me some Bonus Ball, come on down! It will be my pleasure to introduce you to this fun game!
I know! It is an American Corporation. Any other questions can be sent to info@playbonusball.com I will do everything I can to get back to everyone. Thanks for the questions!
I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.
Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.
Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious.
I answered Mark back the same way he answered me. It's only fair. Again, it has nothing to do really with Bonus Ball. It is my opinion on charging professional players large entry fees. I think it is wrong. My opinion. Why I want the WPBL personally to succeed is again my own feelings. I'm a statistic fanatic.
On a league matter that you have asked about...of course I know Jimmy!
He is a great guy! I wish Jim was still promoting but Larry and Jim agreed to part ways, but it had nothing to do with non-payment of funds. That is a personal business disagreement and is no reflection on either gentleman. Nothing personal, simply business. I can't wait to hear Jim announcing the Mosconi Cup! Of all the nine ball announcers, I like him a lot! Well, I'm off to Las Vegas. Anyone wanting to play me some Bonus Ball, come on down! It will be my pleasure to introduce you to this fun game!
I know! It is an American Corporation. Any other questions can be sent to info@playbonusball.com I will do everything I can to get back to everyone. Thanks for the questions!
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Well, Mr. Bremner, I gotta give credit where credit is due. You definitely know how to work this forum's software with the different font colors.
I think everybody appreciates the hard work involved in this huge endeavor, and I am so pleased that the pro players have this opportunity to make some money.
Please take a different tone to Mark Griffin. He's one of the good guys in the pool world. You-all are kind of newbies. I think even if you may not like what he has to say, you should at least give him a modicum of respect on a public forum that is read by many different pool peeps -- industry members, print media, prospective sponsors, pro players, amateur players, railbirds, pool aficionados, you know, the ones who will be buying your product. I want to like you.
Do you know who Jim Wych is? I'm just curious.
I don't have the cool graphic to add, but this is another BOOM post.
Nicely done, JAM. I was thinking in a similar fashion....this guy makes it difficult to want to like the prospective product. And it is still "prospective", until it finally starts. I hope it all works out, and becomes successful. Despite the tone of the lead promoter....
Yeah, the more I hear from him, the less I want to hear any more. JMO.
When you say that charging pros an entry fee is wrong --- please explain.
FACT#1: There is no pro tour that's funded (and marketable) on tv. Therefore, in order to pay the players -- one must collect entry fees. If you said "unfortunate" -- that might be accurate. But to say it's "wrong" is ignorant and uneducated, implying as though the promoters who do run events and do put money into the pockets of pros are taking advantage of them. It's not wrong if it's the only option. You act as though promoters should just let everyone play for free and hand money out like welfare. As of now, pros can play for small entry fees and make peanuts or larger fees and make more money. Or, they can sign BB contracts for free money until it explodes or goes broke.
FACT#2: Mark didn't have a condescending tone in his email to you; yet you were a hair crass in return. Mark, from what I read, merely thought you insinuated no one else was doing anything for pro players and he was a little frustrated/concerned on moving dates -- which makes it hard to schedule around BB.
Giving the players a "break" and waive entry fees and find sponsors. If it were only that easy. The bottom line is--- corporate America doesn't want to sponsor pool. Every time they have, they've been burnt. There are no viewers --- it's not on TV--- and outside of ourselves, no one goes to watch pro players. Only a small, small segment of pool players pay to watch pro pool players. Therefore, there is no ROI in sponsoring anything pool-related from a corporate perspective save the random chance of a corporate exec being a pool player himself (think of the doctor who annually sponsors the world 14.1--- he does it for the LOVE of the game, NOT as a marketing endeavor--- i.e. what a true "sponsor" is).
I suspect the BB will find out the sponsorship world for anything pool/billiard related here in the U.S. is a very cold foreboding place.
If pros want to make real money and play for millions, they should get off their asses like the PGA players did and do something about it themselves-- form a company that creates a tour, find sponsorship, fund it, etc. The golfers did it (with help, but they started it) -- the pool players should do the same. Otherwise, it's victim this and victim that and how it's unfair they have to pay this or that entry fee. Their future is really in their own hands--- no one else's.
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