Are these fundamentals solid?

measureman said:
Most of you are too young to have seen Willie in person.
I played him an exhibition match in 1964 and I really was no threat to him.
But to see how smooth he was in person and how easy he ran racks was really something.
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Just wasn't the way the cards fell for me. I was old enough but if he ever came to town I never knew it. I went in Sears and Roebuck one day. At the top of the elevator, second floor, there was a man in a suit putting on an exhibition on a pool table. It wasn't Willie or Fats which pretty much covered my knowledge of pool players. I walked on by. That was mostly what everyone did, he was standing around in a suit looking like the loneliest guy in Sears. Fairly slender, can't remember much else about him. later I wondered who he was, that bird had flown though. Sometime between seventy and seventy-five I believe.

I would have liked to talk to Willie, liked even more to have played him, didn't kid myself that I could beat him!

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
There was a lot to adapt to every hall you went to in Willie's day. Today, you go into a nice hall with AC or heater keeping the temperature and humidity right and step up to a well manicured Diamond table.

When I think about it, only the Filipinos and no doubt a few others in similar countries move from hall to hall faced with all kinds of conditions when learning, maybe worse than those Willie faced much of the time coming up. I think one secret of the Filipino success is the speed at which they adapt to conditions. Considering that, I think Willie would adjust to today's conditions like a duck taking to water!

The play that amazed me, Willie had the cue ball on a string. If you had a dime sized piece of paper you could have laid it on the table where he was shooting shape for and if the cue ball didn't stop there it would be withing a few inches. Most of the time the cue ball would have shaded that paper, some part of the cue ball being over it!

Worth remembering that Willie held over fifteen world championships. He also wasn't shy about gambling until contracts with corporate sponsors forbade it. Fats could get under Willie's skin like perhaps nobody else in the world could. They were supposed to be filming one of the made for TV things when Willie lost it, something implied or stated about not having the courage to gamble best I recall. Willie threw a fat wallet on the table and said "the hell with the show and the taping, let's go right now!"

That isn't word for word but it was the gist of what Willie said. I think it was Charlie Ursitti who calmed Willie down. Speaking of Charlie, he tells a story in this phone interview starting at about the six minute mark of breaking the balls for Willie and leaving him very tough. Willie shot something out of the stack from in the jaws of a pocket, crossbanked it, and he was off! Willie stopped once for coffee, once for a sandwich, and this is the run that might be called unfinished or deliberately finished. Willie fired the break ball in without attempting to break anything out after saying he was tired. The run was 589 on a standard nine foot Brunswick in 1979. Willie was 66 at the time and that is reaching pretty solidly into the modern era.

Charlie Ursitti was a friend of Willie's, he was also one of the most respected men in pool. I don't think he would tell a silly lie that if found to be a lie could harm his reputation or Willie's legacy.

Charlie is obviously a believer when it comes to Willie Mosconi. There is a funny story in this too but I don't want to spoil it for those wanting to watch the interview. Thirty minutes long total phone interview with Ursitti. Thirty-one and change if you are picky! Almost all about Willie including how Charlie thinks he would fair against today's players, or those of a few years back now.

Hu

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I didn’t read the whole thread, but this post is right on. I don’t have any comment on the book. In play, Mosconi has excellent fundamentals, this is obvious. It’s also obvious that he would adjust to any conditions. If he were playing today, he would be running over people. To suggest that he couldn’t switch to rotation, is just kind of stupid.
 
He may not have had the ultimate stance like a Kim Davemport or wiith his chin resting on the cue like they teach today, but make no mistake about it, he stroked straight and was an excellent shot maker. His wizardry was in his position play in 14.1 which is all they played in those days at the championship level. Before he could win a world title in those days he would have to play in grueling round robins that lasted for months not simple four or five days like today championship events.

He made all the high runs, in a coat and tie, uncomfortable dress shoes. How many he could have run on today’s fast cloth, and modern tables and dressed comfortably like today’s player that take a crack at the hight runs?
We’ll never know the answer to that question, possibly over a thousand who knows.

Yes he could compete and win in any era!
 
xradarx said:
Willie Mosconi the best ever @ 14.1. The records tell the story.
Ralph Greenleaf the next best ever @ 14.1. The records tell the story.
Best ever means just that, for all time.
I say they had the same instructor through their years with Brunswick.
I know their instructor’s name, but am unwilling to spread more news, for now.
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Thanks for not giving it all away today. Now I have something to live for.
 
measureman said:
Most of you are too young to have seen Willie in person.
I played him an exhibition match in 1964 and I really was no threat to him.
But to see how smooth he was in person and how easy he ran racks was really something.
Click to expand...
Ditto.

Played him in 1965 in an exhibition match as a kid. New pool hall opened in Gulfport, MS. Won the 8-ball tournament and got to play him as the prize.

First and only time I've played 14.1. Whooped me 33-150. He was nice to me.

Opening lag, I was less than an inch from the rail and he beat that. Did a perfect break and we had a safety battle for half a dozen or more shots. I ran 7 balls and was pissed at myself for hanging a ball in a pocket.

He came over and said he had been betting on me all day and would give me a chance. He said everyone was there to see him run 100 balls and no one expected me to beat him. He would run up to 40 or so and give me another shot.

I managed to run 26 and left him a very hard shot. His whole demeanor changed, and he winked at me when he went to the table. He made the hard shot and 110 more balls like it was a walk in the park. Perfect shape and you would have sworn that every shot was so easy anybody could have made them.

This is after having a stroke in 1957 or thereabouts.
 
WoodyJ said:
Ditto.

Played him in 1965 in an exhibition match as a kid. New pool hall opened in Gulfport, MS. Won the 8-ball tournament and got to play him as the prize.

First and only time I've played 14.1. Whooped me 33-150. He was nice to me.

Opening lag, I was less than an inch from the rail and he beat that. Did a perfect break and we had a safety battle for half a dozen or more shots. I ran 7 balls and was pissed at myself for hanging a ball in a pocket.

He came over and said he had been betting on me all day and would give me a chance. He said everyone was there to see him run 100 balls and no one expected me to beat him. He would run up to 40 or so and give me another shot.

I managed to run 26 and left him a very hard shot. His whole demeanor changed, and he winked at me when he went to the table. He made the hard shot and 110 more balls like it was a walk in the park. Perfect shape and you would have sworn that every shot was so easy anybody could have made them.

This is after having a stroke in 1957 or thereabouts.
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Great story, thank you. Stories like these are so fun to read!!
 
measureman said:
Most of you are too young to have seen Willie in person.
I played him an exhibition match in 1964 and I really was no threat to him.
But to see how smooth he was in person and how easy he ran racks was really something.
Click to expand...
i saw him put on an exhibition in a Tulsa billiard supply store around 1980. He got out of the cab, walked in, greeted us, calmly ran 100 and got back in the cab. We all just kinda stared at each other. Pretty impressive. No warm-up, just racked 14 with a break-ball and ran 100.
 
garczar said:
i saw him put on an exhibition in a Tulsa billiard supply store around 1980. He got out of the cab, walked in, greeted us, calmly ran 100 and got back in the cab. We all just kinda stared at each other. Pretty impressive. No warm-up, just racked 14 with a break-ball and ran 100.
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I lived in Jersey years ago and there were stories that near the end of his life he would not know what day of the week it was but still ran a 100 almost every day..
 
Deruki said:
Would anyone teach someone to setup and stroke a cue ball like this now days? Elbow hanging low and head in the clouds and such? Other things mentioned in this book's section on fundamental are a stroke length no longer than 8 inches and feet no more than 6 inches apart. Yes he really says these things. Could Willie hang in today's world?View attachment 660479
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Respectfully--but speaking as an instructor who has helped many students--most amateurs would do better with an eight-inch bridge and consistent backstroke than poking at the ball with longer bridges. Mosconi, Lassiter et al are Hall-of-Famers with (often, not always) short bridges.
 
"Correct" fundamentals evolve. Part of it is the game evolving -- 9B vs. 14.1 for example -- and part of it is the players gradually figuring out what works well.

Here is the proper stance from about 200 years ago (1839):

PLAYER1.GIF


Here is what Ray Martin recommends in 99 Critical Shots (1977):
CropperCapture[87].png


It there any current top pool player who is that far above the cue? There are no pro snooker players up that far. There are some top carom players at some games that are often up that high.

There are pictures of Mosconi when he was younger -- black hair -- that show him a lot lower. It's too bad we don't have video from that time.

Mosconi's main game was 14.1 and his technique was to keep all shots as short as possible, playing precise position for the next ball. In that situation, maybe being low to see the exact angle is not as important as being up higher where you get a 3D view of the table.

As for who wrote Mosconi's books, I've heard that a publicist for Brunswick named Harry Grove wrote "Winning Pocket Billiards".
 
Bob Jewett said:
"Correct" fundamentals evolve. Part of it is the game evolving -- 9B vs. 14.1 for example -- and part of it is the players gradually figuring out what works well.

Here is the proper stance from about 200 years ago (1839):

View attachment 661169

Here is what Ray Martin recommends in 99 Critical Shots (1977):
View attachment 661170

It there any current top pool player who is that far above the cue? There are no pro snooker players up that far. There are some top carom players at some games that are often up that high.

There are pictures of Mosconi when he was younger -- black hair -- that show him a lot lower. It's too bad we don't have video from that time.

Mosconi's main game was 14.1 and his technique was to keep all shots as short as possible, playing precise position for the next ball. In that situation, maybe being low to see the exact angle is not as important as being up higher where you get a 3D view of the table.

As for who wrote Mosconi's books, I've heard that a publicist for Brunswick named Harry Grove wrote "Winning Pocket Billiards".
Click to expand...

For a current top player, how about Yu Lung Chang?
 
People argue with some truth that the path of the cue ball is easier to deal with if your bridge is at the pivot point. However, from what I found in actual testing, the typical player doesn't hit the cue ball where intended with the long bridge lengths currently in style.

I think they are deliberately or unconsciously copying the way the top players shoot without the skills needed to handle those bridge lengths. They are giving up more than they are gaining, or that is my opinion. If you don't send the cue ball on the right path to begin with there is little or no value to staying on that path.

Almost all of us, myself included, want to fly before we can walk. Successful pros are outnumbered more than a thousand to one by the rest of us. Here is a simple little test using two balls and the center dots on the headstring and footstring: Put the cue ball centered on the headstring, the front line of the kitchen. Put any other ball on the spot the one ball normally goes on when you rack.

The exercise is simple. Shoot the cue ball into the object ball aiming at the center diamond on the foot rail and using a stop shot. The object ball should rebound from the foot rail and hit the cue ball. Put a dollar or other bill centered on the head rail. The cue ball should cross that bill most of the time. Shoot this shot ten times for warm up then try twenty times for score. Keep up with how many times the cue ball crosses the bill. Keep up with how many times the cue ball misses the center of the head rail by more than a diamond. Also keep up with how often the cue ball doesn't hit the head rail, it will happen for most of us!

Until you are confident the cue ball will always hit less than a diamond from center you have some fundamental mechanical flaws that need to be found and eliminated. When you are confident it will cross the bill eight times out of ten you are ready to move on to other things. Try this drill about once a month to verify that errors haven't snuck into your game.

This is suggested for everyone to try. Instructors might have students try this at the beginning of the first session to find out where the student is at. Of course the table has to be tested for true first. If the instructor can't shoot from one diamond out and cross the head spot and foot spot in both directions there may be issues with the table.

A little something everyone can try. With thanks or apologies to Joe Tucker. I don't remember his test exactly but I took the basic idea from him. Eventually a person should be able to perform this exercise at anything short of break speed. It is a major confidence booster when you can.

Hu
 
Bob Jewett said:
"Correct" fundamentals evolve. Part of it is the game evolving -- 9B vs. 14.1 for example -- and part of it is the players gradually figuring out what works well.

Here is the proper stance from about 200 years ago (1839):

View attachment 661169

Here is what Ray Martin recommends in 99 Critical Shots (1977):
View attachment 661170

It there any current top pool player who is that far above the cue? There are no pro snooker players up that far. There are some top carom players at some games that are often up that high.

There are pictures of Mosconi when he was younger -- black hair -- that show him a lot lower. It's too bad we don't have video from that time.

Mosconi's main game was 14.1 and his technique was to keep all shots as short as possible, playing precise position for the next ball. In that situation, maybe being low to see the exact angle is not as important as being up higher where you get a 3D view of the table.

As for who wrote Mosconi's books, I've heard that a publicist for Brunswick named Harry Grove wrote "Winning Pocket Billiards".
Click to expand...
And here is Ray Martin at age 74 running balls, with a lower stance than what he has in his book when he was much younger. More and more evidence that the old time players and the modern players really were quite close to each other in their stances. AND, that their books did not necessarily reflect their actual play.
SCR-20220912-wbu.jpeg
 
Deruki said:
Would anyone teach someone to setup and stroke a cue ball like this now days? Elbow hanging low and head in the clouds and such? Other things mentioned in this book's section on fundamental are a stroke length no longer than 8 inches and feet no more than 6 inches apart. Yes he really says these things. Could Willie hang in today's world?View attachment 660479
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Today, I would seriously doubt anyone would teach those fundamentals; but, don't ever be fooled by an older guy who stands like that; because I was.

One afternoon 30 years ago in the early 90s, I was jonesing for some action, and the room where I occasionally played at night was just dead when I walked in.

I'd never been in this room in the daytime, and none of the regular gamblers where there, and only about 3 Seniors and a couple of teenagers. So, I decided I'd sit at the counter for a while, and see if anyone showed and eat a hot dog while I waited.

As I chopped on my hot dog at the counter, I lamented to the girl working the counter about the lack of getting an afternoon game of 9 Ball or One Pocket. She told me what I already knew about coming back at night; and then, she steered me to one of the old guys - of which I am now in 2022 a member of in good standing in the old guy club, by the way - but, she told me: "He ONLY plays Rotation and he never plays anybody for more than $5 a rack, he won't raise, and, if he gets down $20, he'll quit you immediately... so you might not want to bother to play him.".

I eyed the old guy's play over from the counter, and he was putting them down pretty well; but, watching the way he moved, aimed(?), and stood mostly straight up (like in Willie's pic) looked totally crazy/casual to me.

He sort of moved like Fats in that he would just waddle up to a shot, no address, didn't seem to even aim, lots of one-stroking them in, rarely had to reach for anything, and they were all pretty easy shots - the 'all easy shots' part SHOULD have been my first warning sign (older and wiser now) - so, I figured what the heck, I'll have a little fun horsing-around and let the old guy buy me a tank of gas without screwing-up his 'fixed income, retired old guy' short-pants bankroll.

Yeah.

Bottom line, that old guy who stood nearly straight-up, didn't seem to bother to aim, waddled around the table, rarely missed or ended up on the rail or hook himself, seemed to always get the right roll, and could bank like crazy or could kick out of a trap like a mule when I could leave him in trouble.

He had opened my nose for a VERY fast $50 bucks before I quit him.

When I went back up to the counter to pay my time, I asked the girl: "Who was that old guy?"; and she said: "Oh, Bennie... yeah, he's not pretty to watch, but he can bank."

That was one expensive hot dog. - GJ
 
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GentlemanJames said:
Today, I would seriously doubt it; but, don't ever be fooled by an older guy who stands like that; because I was.

One afternoon 30 years ago in the early 90s, I was jonesing for some action, and the room where I occasionally played at night was just dead when I walked in.

I'd never been in this room in the daytime, and none of the regular gamblers where there, and only about 3 Seniors and a couple of teenagers. So, I decided I'd sit at the counter for a while, and see if anyone showed and eat a hot dog while I waited.

As I chopped on my hot dog at the counter, I lamented to the girl working the counter about the lack of getting an afternoon game of 9 Ball or One Pocket. She told me what I already knew about coming back at night; and then, she steered me to one of the old guys - of which I am now in 2022 a member of in good standing in the old guy club, by the way - but, she told me: "He ONLY plays Rotation and he never plays anybody for more than $5 a rack, he won't raise, and, if he gets down $20, he'll quit you immediately... so you might not want to play him.".

I eyed the old guy's play over from the counter, and he was putting them down pretty well; but, watching the way he moved, aimed(?), and stood mostly straight up (like in Willie's pic) looked totally crazy/casual to me.

He sort of moved like Fats in that he would just waddle up to a shot, no address, didn't seem to even aim, lots of one-stroking them in, rarely had to reach for anything, and they were all pretty easy shots - the 'all easy shots' part SHOULD have been my first warning sign (older and wiser now) - so, I figured what the heck, I'll have a little fun horsing-around and let the old guy buy me a tank of gas without screwing-up his 'fixed income, retired old guy' short-pants bankroll.

Yeah.

Bottom line, that old guy who stood nearly straight-up, didn't seem to bother to aim, waddled around the table, rarely missed or ended up on the rail or hook himself, seemed to always get the right roll, and could bank like crazy or could kick out of a trap like a mule when I could leave him in trouble.

He had opened my nose for a VERY fast $50 bucks before I quit him.

When I went back up to the counter to pay my time, I asked the girl: "Who was that old guy?"; and she said: "Oh, Bennie... yeah, he's not pretty to watch, but he can bank."

That was one expensive hot dog. - GJ
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i don’t know why this makes me so happy, but it does.
 
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