What's the cliff notes on why this huge added $ tourney bit the dust? All I recall is that there were far fewer players in it than one would have ever imagined. Was Bonus Ball a factor?
Article by Badi Nazhat
- Thread starter Houstoer
- Start date
What's the cliff notes on why this huge added $ tourney bit the dust? All I recall is that there were far fewer players in it than one would have ever imagined. Was Bonus Ball a factor?
A player that lets his name stay on the ABP member list that didn't join it is very weak with no backbone. The first thing the pro players need to do is throw Johnny Archer, Charlie Williams and their cronies out on their ass. The players that continue to let their names be used by Johnny Archer are nothing more than slaves. Promoters need to ban them from their events for being troublemakers. Most of the pros are pathetic when it comes to business. I don't think Shane is too swift either supporting Barry after him and others getting stiffed by Barry many times. Barry runs the U.S Open for his own ego, and no other reason. Now Archer is beating the drum for Mike M's new league. Wake up people. Johnny Archer is for Johnny Archer and not the rest of the pro players. Johnnyt
Nothing he says is shocking. It's all unfortunate. For poolrooms and all businesses related to them, I foresee continued growth issues. Some of the reasons are very complex but overall, there's a declining interest in pool in the United States and our industry has been in reverse for so long, it's forgotten how to put the car in drive.
I agree, there needs to be a governing body but that body has to acknowledge that growth is no longer the primary concern. That will happen (or not happen) by things entirely out of our control. The best we can do is create a structure for those currently involved that allows for our elites to participate without monetary concerns and provides venues for active local and national competition on all levels.
I think we're so focused on pool movies, calendar girls and reinvention that we forgot to look at the very reason why each and every one of us picked-up a cue in the first place. At one time in each of our lives, we all thought one day, we might stop missing. We might reach perfection. We need to continue encouraging that quest and the only way to do it is to keep professionals at the top. Get away from the bullshit and start focusing on a structure that is purely focused on prestige and allow its aura to paint the way.
I agree, there needs to be a governing body but that body has to acknowledge that growth is no longer the primary concern. That will happen (or not happen) by things entirely out of our control. The best we can do is create a structure for those currently involved that allows for our elites to participate without monetary concerns and provides venues for active local and national competition on all levels.
I think we're so focused on pool movies, calendar girls and reinvention that we forgot to look at the very reason why each and every one of us picked-up a cue in the first place. At one time in each of our lives, we all thought one day, we might stop missing. We might reach perfection. We need to continue encouraging that quest and the only way to do it is to keep professionals at the top. Get away from the bullshit and start focusing on a structure that is purely focused on prestige and allow its aura to paint the way.
The 'elephant in the room' is pretty hard to miss....
...but a lot of people keep missing it.
It's the PLAYERS that aren't showing up and supporting these events.
I've asked a few good young players why they don't get out more....
...the normal response is."I don't have a sponsor."
They don't get a lot of sympathy from me....
...I drove to California once just to hear a man say..."I don't want to play you."
...but I quintupled my bank-roll on the way.
Pool organizations are only as good as their members.
Pool attracts rugged individuals......
..I can't stand them acting like members of a union.:angry:
...but a lot of people keep missing it.
It's the PLAYERS that aren't showing up and supporting these events.
I've asked a few good young players why they don't get out more....
...the normal response is."I don't have a sponsor."
They don't get a lot of sympathy from me....
...I drove to California once just to hear a man say..."I don't want to play you."
...but I quintupled my bank-roll on the way.
Pool organizations are only as good as their members.
Pool attracts rugged individuals......
..I can't stand them acting like members of a union.:angry:
One other thought...
Everybody gives Charlie Williams a hard time (I know...I know) and Johnny Archer as well BUT...you have to give them credit -- they have to a certain extent, figured out how to actually make a living from this game. The big problem I see is promoters have all wanted to play nice together instead of viewing each other as healthy competitors.
Many promoters complain about this or that (ABP, Bonus Ball, etc.). To me, this sort of shows me that these promoters aren't really all that interested in competing against each other; they just assume that there should be some sort of gentlemen's agreement among them. Well, that's clearly not the case for all of them. Like it or not, it is my uneducated opinion that Dragon Promotions is the only one in the States that is playing for keeps.
If they haven't already, it's probably time all the other promoters took note of this.
Everybody gives Charlie Williams a hard time (I know...I know) and Johnny Archer as well BUT...you have to give them credit -- they have to a certain extent, figured out how to actually make a living from this game. The big problem I see is promoters have all wanted to play nice together instead of viewing each other as healthy competitors.
Many promoters complain about this or that (ABP, Bonus Ball, etc.). To me, this sort of shows me that these promoters aren't really all that interested in competing against each other; they just assume that there should be some sort of gentlemen's agreement among them. Well, that's clearly not the case for all of them. Like it or not, it is my uneducated opinion that Dragon Promotions is the only one in the States that is playing for keeps.
If they haven't already, it's probably time all the other promoters took note of this.
Lots of truth in this post.
Griffin and I have a long running joke:
Mark: You know someone could buy pro pool for a few million bucks......
Me and Mark:....but then what would you do with it?
Cue rimshot and laugh track....
Seriously though how do you sell something no one wants to watch? Not even the people who play?
When someone figures that out maybe things will be different.
You should go look at the long line of charred bridges behind Dragon Promotions. If I had to have his reputation to be considered successful in this or any industry I would not do it.
I have never seen anyone like Charlie before. No player I know will admit to actually liking the guy. Many are outright hostile about it in private but almost all will fall right in line for some reason. I'll be damned if I can understand.
I agree 100% there is some kind of weird screwed up "We are all in this together" mindset among players and many promoters. A few use it as a very effective weapon. That mindset seems to get used for lots of really jacked up things and never ones that actually could do anything lasting though.
NYC cue dude
Banned
I had similar experiences after I revived the world straight pool championships in 2006. After a few years of interest, I started putting money into the sport by way of this initial event. My participation came with a few caveats in order to grow this event into a substantial, self sustaining world championship. It also came with the promise of funding additional events. After 2 years it was painfully obvious to me where this was heading. NOT ONE OF MY SUGGESTIONS WERE IMPLEMENTED towards reaching our stated goals. It was also at this time that the IPT came along and there were key players that decided to put their eggs into that particular basket instead.
I love the game of pool and some of the players even more. But what I learned is that without unity and an ego-less leader, pool will NOT be anything more than an ancillary hobby. The game is in such shambles that with any decent plan and adequate financial commitments, success should be a given, right? But we've all seen many capable individuals come and go without achieving it. Mr. Badi Nazhat and Mr. Mark Griffen are only the latest casualties. I won't lay this all at the feet of the professional players, but will add that the game is played as an individual sport, not with a team mentality. In that regard, players are taught to look out for themselves from the day they pick up a cue. At this point though, I will admit, that I am unsure how to motivate them to suspend that perspective long enough to allow them to see the success that long standing unity will deliver.
I have many regrets myself. I know things now that I didn't when I pushed my chips in the middle. Early on, I passed on an opportunity to join the board of the BCA. I allowed others to control my money. There are other regrets too. I've learned some valuable lessons along the way. I'm sure Mr Nazhat feels the same way. I'm also sure that if he retains the passion for the game, he'll eventually reconsider his position and reconstitute a new plan. Its premature at this point to reveal any details, but I, along with some professional players, have been working diligently on a new project for the last 6 months. During much of this time I have spent separated from my family, a thousand miles away, in an effort to start a grassroots pool entity. Hopefully, the time, money and effort spent will create something positive for pool. Only time will tell. I only mention this to show that it is possible for good folks like Mr Nazhat to take their well deserved "pause" and find their way back to the game. All we need is a little luck and a lot of unity.
Best regards
Randy Goldwater
I love the game of pool and some of the players even more. But what I learned is that without unity and an ego-less leader, pool will NOT be anything more than an ancillary hobby. The game is in such shambles that with any decent plan and adequate financial commitments, success should be a given, right? But we've all seen many capable individuals come and go without achieving it. Mr. Badi Nazhat and Mr. Mark Griffen are only the latest casualties. I won't lay this all at the feet of the professional players, but will add that the game is played as an individual sport, not with a team mentality. In that regard, players are taught to look out for themselves from the day they pick up a cue. At this point though, I will admit, that I am unsure how to motivate them to suspend that perspective long enough to allow them to see the success that long standing unity will deliver.
I have many regrets myself. I know things now that I didn't when I pushed my chips in the middle. Early on, I passed on an opportunity to join the board of the BCA. I allowed others to control my money. There are other regrets too. I've learned some valuable lessons along the way. I'm sure Mr Nazhat feels the same way. I'm also sure that if he retains the passion for the game, he'll eventually reconsider his position and reconstitute a new plan. Its premature at this point to reveal any details, but I, along with some professional players, have been working diligently on a new project for the last 6 months. During much of this time I have spent separated from my family, a thousand miles away, in an effort to start a grassroots pool entity. Hopefully, the time, money and effort spent will create something positive for pool. Only time will tell. I only mention this to show that it is possible for good folks like Mr Nazhat to take their well deserved "pause" and find their way back to the game. All we need is a little luck and a lot of unity.
Best regards
Randy Goldwater
Best post in this thread. I have a great deal of respect for people who put their money where their mouth is. You are obviously a man with great wisdom in this industry. It is a shame that you were not able to move forward with your vision at the time when you were active.
Doing one or two traditional events isnt big enough to get the players on board. Never has been. But look at Bonus Ball and IPT. Both sold the dream both had players jump right on board. If either one would have had an actual, real, viable plan then things could have turned out much different.
Pool needs a benevolent dictator with money, brains and the savvy to pick the right people for the right jobs. So far we have had some with one or two on that list but never all three.
That said an argument can be made that Barry Hearn already did it and figured out there just is no future in pool at all outside of a couple made for TV events when the conditions are right.
Thanks for the well stated, experienced info Randy.
1000 miles away from NYC - grass roots entity... Hmmm. A Texas chili cookoff?
Best of fortune pulling this off successfully.
Mr. Nazhat has taken the time to create a vivid, and very accurate snapshot of where professional pool seems to be headed for the foreseeable future !.. Is it surprising that another top notch businessman (and pool lover) like Mark Griffin, is having second thoughts about his involvement in professional pool ?
Likewise Greg Sullivan. Although Greg has managed to keep the DCC alive all these years, one must wonder how long his 'love for the game' can continue. He even (courageously) tried to create additional major tournament venues, only to be shot down by the player's themselves. They turned their backs on him, to align themselves with a 'pie in the sky' promoter, with absolutely ZERO reasonable chance of succeeding !
Bonus Ball came on the scene, with an arrogant attitude, and almost NO viable business plan at all !..No problem, they had Johnny Archer and a few other BIG names on board !..They also decided to cancel a commitment to use Diamond tables, in favor of a foreign manufacturer. Hows that for the ultimate snub !
I find it nothing short of amazing, that all this was accomplished with the overwhelming support, of yet another "Professional Pool Player's" organization, (WPBL, I think it's called) that ALSO has absolutely NO chance of surviving in today's climate !
Lets see how long it will be, before the Griffin's and the Sullivan's agree with Mr. Nazhat, that it is simply NOT worth the effort, to drag the pro player's, kicking and screaming down victory lane !...And that would leave us with Barry Behrman, and Charlie Williams as the only hope, for Pro pool's survival in the U.S. !....Good luck wi' dem apples !
Dick McMorran
PS.."Gloom and doom" has never been my bag !..But please tell me how ANYONE can be optimistic, about this situation ?
LATE EDIT;..Justin, and Randy G.. we were apparently typing our posts at the same time..(lots of duplicity, and similar thoughts) Hats off to you, for hanging in there Mr. G..I do wish you every success in your new venture !
Likewise Greg Sullivan. Although Greg has managed to keep the DCC alive all these years, one must wonder how long his 'love for the game' can continue. He even (courageously) tried to create additional major tournament venues, only to be shot down by the player's themselves. They turned their backs on him, to align themselves with a 'pie in the sky' promoter, with absolutely ZERO reasonable chance of succeeding !
Bonus Ball came on the scene, with an arrogant attitude, and almost NO viable business plan at all !..No problem, they had Johnny Archer and a few other BIG names on board !..They also decided to cancel a commitment to use Diamond tables, in favor of a foreign manufacturer. Hows that for the ultimate snub !
I find it nothing short of amazing, that all this was accomplished with the overwhelming support, of yet another "Professional Pool Player's" organization, (WPBL, I think it's called) that ALSO has absolutely NO chance of surviving in today's climate !
Lets see how long it will be, before the Griffin's and the Sullivan's agree with Mr. Nazhat, that it is simply NOT worth the effort, to drag the pro player's, kicking and screaming down victory lane !...And that would leave us with Barry Behrman, and Charlie Williams as the only hope, for Pro pool's survival in the U.S. !....Good luck wi' dem apples !
Dick McMorran
PS.."Gloom and doom" has never been my bag !..But please tell me how ANYONE can be optimistic, about this situation ?
LATE EDIT;..Justin, and Randy G.. we were apparently typing our posts at the same time..(lots of duplicity, and similar thoughts) Hats off to you, for hanging in there Mr. G..I do wish you every success in your new venture !
Last edited:
NYC cue dude
Banned
The problems are complex. BB never really had the funding or a viable path to the finish line without television exposure. That is always going to be a long shot. With that said, though, TV can always cure even the most anemic business plans. The IPT had the funding (although admittedly I'll gotten). Besides Kevin's poor attitude, the US govt made changes regarding Internet gambling after he started his venture. Ultimately that was to be the backbone of his business plan. Once that opportunity was removed from the equation, he no longer had a path to success without going into his own pocket.
Matchroom has developed a successful enterprise in Europe that to duplicate in today's economy in the US would cost many multiples in millions of dollars. Barry had the benefit of growing his brand over the last few decades. It would be nearly impossible to recreate here without really, really deep pockets. Considering the likely payoff won't be worth it, such a venture is too risky for most reasonable men.
There is another path, though, that I can see as making a substantial impact and retaining profitability. It's a bottom up approach that hasn't been tried yet. It requires good business sense, knowledgable players and solid industry support. We now have these components in place. Now the hard work is just beginning.
I wish you good luck but if you need "good business sense, knowledgable players and solid industry support." in pool is like me saying I need a 32 inch waist, a Ferrari and a date with Oprah. All theoretically possible but highly unlikely. Especially all at the same time.
100% agree that a ground up structure would be very effective at changing the future for the better. I hope you can pull it off.
She fine son.
Oprah comes in at #503 for richest people in America and I doubt there are very many better looking than her on the list.
EDIT: Make that #503 in the world.
To only get a hundred or so total fans over the course of 4 days is a promo failure
If a Million Dollar tree falls in the forest and no one's around does it still make a noise?
Dishing out $100,000 to the players made no noise, this is just a fact. As a promoter your sole ambition should be to make noise for your promotion.
TV is the only way for a sport/game to do this, streaming video at that even didn't bring one new person into the game.......in other words IT MADE NO NOISE.
My suggestion to Badi would have been simple. Put $50,000 into the tournament and $50,000 into a REAL TV BROADCAST and at least MAKE SOME NOISE.
This tournament had hundreds of players and 15 fans.....if anything it should be the other way around, use 8 Quality Players, put it on TV and PROMOTE IT!!!
To only get a hundred or so total fans over the course of 4 days is a promotional failure.
The solution is TV, not prize money, it would be better to have two players a week playing for charity donations than a $1,000,000 tournament in Tunica Mississippi.
It wouldn't have mattered if the prize money was a MILLION dollars there still would have been 15 fans in the stands......the core problem is the lack of promotional expertise and this is not the players problem, it's the promoter's problem and it can easily be fixed.....but NEVER with "streaming video" it must be with BIG media ie: TV!
If a Million Dollar tree falls in the forest and no one's around does it still make a noise?
Dishing out $100,000 to the players made no noise, this is just a fact. As a promoter your sole ambition should be to make noise for your promotion.
TV is the only way for a sport/game to do this, streaming video at that even didn't bring one new person into the game.......in other words IT MADE NO NOISE.
My suggestion to Badi would have been simple. Put $50,000 into the tournament and $50,000 into a REAL TV BROADCAST and at least MAKE SOME NOISE.
This tournament had hundreds of players and 15 fans.....if anything it should be the other way around, use 8 Quality Players, put it on TV and PROMOTE IT!!!
To only get a hundred or so total fans over the course of 4 days is a promotional failure.
The solution is TV, not prize money, it would be better to have two players a week playing for charity donations than a $1,000,000 tournament in Tunica Mississippi.
It wouldn't have mattered if the prize money was a MILLION dollars there still would have been 15 fans in the stands......the core problem is the lack of promotional expertise and this is not the players problem, it's the promoter's problem and it can easily be fixed.....but NEVER with "streaming video" it must be with BIG media ie: TV!