assembly methods

[scdiveteam]

There is also the question of balance to consider.
If you are not placing a metal screw in the "A" joint how do you make up the weight loss to get the cue to balance as if it had one?

The screw in the "A" joint provides pre-load while the epoxy sets up.
After the epoxy sets in the "A" joint the screw is only needed there for weight.
If the epoxy fails the screw will not keep you from knowing about it.

There are many ways to build a cue and I have found the best method is the one that gives you the best results.

Willee

Willee,

I epoxy a weight bolt behind my pin and in the rear to control weight and balance after the blank is at final taper turn and ready for pin install.

Sometimes just in the front. I always balance my cues at 18.5 inches with a 2" to 3" threaded 1/2" 13 pocket in the rear so the player has the option to add weight if he prefers a more neutral moment arm.

Rick

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick,

I did not say you used Gorilla Glue for an A-joint. I was addressing a different member's post regarding that point. So no need to defend your religious fervor about using Gorilla Glue to core cues.

The issue I DID address with you was the ludicrous statements you made regarding your claim that fast-curing epoxy can "build up hydraulic pressure that can get trapped [inside a cue]", your suggestion that a finished cue can contain "hydraulic potential", and that having such a cue in a "non pressurized baggage area " can result in some sort of spectacular (and presumably catastrophic) result.

These statements of "fact" by you are SO over-the-top preposterous that I would like to see you defend them here in the same thread where you posted them. Surely you can do that... can't you?

TW

TW,

I see, but you don't understand my point. I will be more clear about the physical laws going on here. I did not say build up hydraulic pressure concerning the core glue up, the epoxy is forced out of the core by the piston action of the dowel. This is only a hydraulic action and it also happens with the GG but because this material expands to fill the annulus with the water catalyst as opposed to the thin slow set epoxy that can slightly soak into the more porous or absorbent woods and create unseen striations with a potential for slight gaps that can buzz later down the road.

To build hydraulic pressure there must be a closed containment like exists in the A Joint method and that is why you etch slight relief grooves with a razor. With over 30 years under your belt, you surly understand that. I only mention it because there are new guys here that are learning stuff about the A joint.

Concerning A Joints or Pin installs, we all have experienced a hydraulic blow out at some time in our learning curves building cues. To your challenge.... For example: If you build up a hydraulic situation in a blind hole it can cure with an over pressure burden inside. At sea level that overburden may be slight and not be a force strong enough to split the wall. After curing this wall is still loaded in all directions within that containment. Now take that unit into rarified air or a lesser pressure zone and at a certain elevation the pressure differential can split the wall.

Because the equalization process sometimes takes a little time when doing a pin or A joint, it is wiser to use the thin slower set epoxy as opposed to the fast cure which has a thicker viscosity. The thicker fast cure is makes it easier to trap some hydraulic pressure because it builds up heat in the confined area and can lock in some air pressure unknown to the CM at the time because there was no blow out. This is called pre load and it can be a time bomb waiting to go off. Since most CMs are very careful doing jobs where you can blow out , they use slow cure most cues are equalized in these areas. The idea that the wood will vent out the pressure naturally does not wash as quick cure can form a seal pretty fast. The slow cure can get hard very fast especially if someone were to wait a minute after mixing before slathering it into the hole.

FYI, I owned and operated 2 hyperbaric chambers and have a lot of experience with the effects of pressure. Pressure, decompression and recompression can do a lot of things that do not seem correct to a layman with no experience. Saying that I also have first hand knowledge that Ray Schuler shipped ten cues to New York to Sang Lee's room and when they arrived the A joints were split apart on 7 cues. Ray Ray was a chemical engineer and told me that the guy who assembled and glued those A Joints used quick cure which was not the normal epoxy Ray used in his shop for that task. He only told me the story to warn me to be careful and be forewarned as a newer CM. When this happened Ray had over 25 years of building under his belt and a BS degree.

TW, I stand behind that statement. Do you really think that a contained area that is "under pressure" goes neutral when the epoxy cures solid. This is "Not over-the-top preposterous" as you suggest. :scratchhead: If the pressure in the thin wall containment is close to causing a failure, a few psi could be and will bethe straw that breaks the camel's back if conditions are on the edge. Got it. Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it has not happened.

Air pressure above sea level can be calculated as:

p = 101325 (1 - 2.25577 10-5 h)5.25588

where

p = air pressure (Pa)

h = altitude above sea level (m)


Commercial jet cargo holds are pressurized so this type of thing is not common. Smaller non pressurized air craft do not generally climb over 12,500.00 feet per the FAA unless the crew is breathing oxygen. At 12,000 feet it is about + 8 psi which is about a 6 psi differential. A small envelope I would agree but under the right conditions the A Joint wall can and have failed if it is pre stressed loaded. Also when you trap and compress air in the confined area it can exceed ambient pressure at sea level. This is why forearms can blow out when you tighten the pin causing air compression within the hole.

BTW, you can mention my name or show pics of my cue designs and knock them any time you wish trying to discredit me.:duck: I see every knock as a boost and will always respond in kind. That's fair as I see it. I am not the kinda of guy who denies a refund after building a big cue for customer, ships it to them and when it arrives the customer states the butt does not roll straight on a flat surface. Believe it or not, there are some CMs out there that would tell a customer they have no control over a cue shipped to a different area as an excuse not to refund.:barf:

IMO, using the correctly sized laminated dowel for the straight backbone of the cue, with GG as the mortar gives me zero sleepless nights. I am a happy observer and believer in this method.

I myself, stand behind all of my work, no questions asked.

So there it is.

JMO,

Rick

Before you go off on your innuendos and call me a lier which is your habit. Here is a job pic of my Mobile 80" Chamber mounted on a 40' lowboy trailer. It was the sister unit of NASA's mobile chamber built in 1964 for the space agency for training the original 7.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Willee,

I epoxy a weight bolt behind my pin and in the rear to control weight and balance after the blank is at final taper turn and ready for pin install.

Sometimes just in the front. I always balance my cues at 18.5 inches with a 2" to 3" threaded 1/2" 13 pocket in the rear so the player has the option to add weight if he prefers a more neutral moment arm.

Rick

The less weight at the joint, the better for me . I avoid added weight outside of the joint screw there as much as possible.
Ray Schuller had the same thought .

 

[scdiveteam]

The less weight at the joint, the better for me . I avoid added weight outside of the joint screw there as much as possible.
Ray Schuller had the same thought .

Joey,

Ray had 100s of finished shafts at size in his shop all with a black joint collars and all with the gram weights written on the face in pencil. He tweaked his weight a balance by picking the lighter or heavier shafts and doing what he had to do with his rear weight in concert.

That is what he did but I am not a fan of lighter shafts for example. Not every butt come out at 14.5 to 15 oz and customers want the wood they want and the weight and balance, At some point weights up front are needed. Every one does things their own way.

His joint pin set up was much lighter than our big pins also.

Rick

PS: I often wondered, with your threaded wooden a joint , how do you get you weight and balance nailed without being aft loaded if you don't get weight up front without a lot of 17 oz cues? Seems like there are a lot of cues that would need a few ozs to get to 18.5 or 19.

 

[qbilder]

Many people I know who core and use expansion poly.

We don't use poly glue for it's "expansive" characteristic in cores. There are several reasons to use poly glue in a core, but the foaming isn't one of them. With a properly fit core, the glue doesn't expand. It only expands where there is room to do so. If there's room for expansion inside your core fit, then you aren't fitting it properly.

 

[Joe Barringer]

Again.... thanks for the great words of wisdom and the abuse.

Kim

And to think all this accomplished without me.

Unfortunately, one character still finds the need to denigrate another where ever and when ever he can. It's getting real old.

 

[Thomas Wayne]

And to think all this accomplished without me.

Unfortunately, one character still finds the need to denigrate another where ever and when ever he can. It's getting real old.

So, Joe, since you've chimed in supporting Rick, do everyone a favor and answer a couple of questions for us. Oh, and since you consider it unfortunate that anyone would "denigrate another where ever and when ever he can", is it too much to ask that you refrain from doing so yourself? Thank you in advance for being civil about all this.

So here are my questions for you, Joe:

Do you agree with Rick that using "fast setting epoxy" in the A-joint of a cue can cause a cue to "build up hydraulic pressure” that will remain inside the cue after it’s adhesives have cured?

And do you agree with Rick that a cue assembled with "fast setting epoxy" can continue to have "hydraulic potential" even after the cue is entirely finished?

And finally, do you agree with Rick that a cue assembled with "fast setting epoxy" may suffer damage due to this internal "hydraulic potential" if it finds itself "on a airplane with a non pressurized baggage area"?

Really, as expert as you consider yourself to be in all things cue related you surely must be able to form an opinion regarding the likelihood of Rick's assertions. Hopefully you'll be kind enough to share those with us all - without, of course, feeling the need to "denigrate" anyone.

TW

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

Ray had 100s of finished shafts at size in his shop all with a black joint collars and all with the gram weights written on the face in pencil. He tweaked his weight a balance by picking the lighter or heavier shafts and doing what he had to do with his rear weight in concert.

That is what he did but I am not a fan of lighter shafts for example. Not every butt come out at 14.5 to 15 oz and customers want the wood they want and the weight and balance, At some point weights up front are needed. Every one does things their own way.

His joint pin set up was much lighter than our big pins also.

Rick

PS: I often wondered, with your threaded wooden a joint , how do you get you weight and balance nailed without being aft loaded if you don't get weight up front without a lot of 17 oz cues? Seems like there are a lot of cues that would need a few ozs to get to 18.5 or 19.

Proprietary weight system shown to me by my late mentor.
He showed me two x-rays of two big named makers . One had stacks of set screws . Another one had long set screws that looked like they weren't even centered. And after being in repair business so long, he swore he wouldn't use them and came up with a fixed weight system in the middle when needed . I'm not big on light forearm and maple handle . So the weight added in the middle is not much. Nothing more than 3/4 of an ounce.
I use rosewood core for light forearms. Use purpleheart underwrap if extra weight is needed.

 

[Joe Barringer]

So, Joe, since you've chimed in supporting Rick, do everyone a favor and answer a couple of questions for us. Oh, and since you consider it unfortunate that anyone would "denigrate another where ever and when ever he can", is it too much to ask that you refrain from doing so yourself? Thank you in advance for being civil about all this.

So here are my questions for you, Joe:

Do you agree with Rick that using "fast setting epoxy" in the A-joint of a cue can cause a cue to "build up hydraulic pressure” that will remain inside the cue after it’s adhesives have cured?

And do you agree with Rick that a cue assembled with "fast setting epoxy" can continue to have "hydraulic potential" even after the cue is entirely finished?

And finally, do you agree with Rick that a cue assembled with "fast setting epoxy" may suffer damage due to this internal "hydraulic potential" if it finds itself "on a airplane with a non pressurized baggage area"?

Really, as expert as you consider yourself to be in all things cue related you surely must be able to form an opinion regarding the likelihood of Rick's assertions. Hopefully you'll be kind enough to share those with us all - without, of course, feeling the need to "denigrate" anyone.

TW

YAWN

Thomas, my dear, dear "friend"... :wave:

Thank you for the invitation to comment but I don't have the time for you today.



Have a very nice day and a wonderful weekend. :dance:

 

[Thomas Wayne]

YAWN

Thomas, my dear, dear "friend"... :wave:

Thank you for the invitation to comment but I don't have the time for you today.



Have a very nice day and a wonderful weekend. :dance:

Run, Forest, run!

TW

 

[cueman]

That is the least understood and worst reason to think Gorilla Glue is a good choice for the A-joint. Gorilla Glues ability to "fill gaps" is not only NOT a benefit, it's actually a detriment, for the following reasons:

1) The entire idea of using a "gap filling" glue at the A-joint encourages the belief that this doesn't have to be a dead-nuts fit - hell, just make it sloppy so it's easy to put together and let the glue fill it in. So, IMO, it encourages imprecise, amateurish machining. Also,

2) Gorilla Glue is nothing more than high-density polyurethane foam. When it expands to "fills" gaps, the only thing it fills them with is gas (read: AIR). The structural rigid plastic (polyurethane) content does not - indeed, CANNOT - increase in volume; only the result of off-gassing, which creates hollow bubbles, can make that gooey shit expand ("fill gaps") - and when it does expand it becomes structurally weaker. In fact, the more it expands the weaker it gets – Gorilla Glue’s own product literature states that. Also,

3) The end result of Gorilla Glue expanding is that it become a very light, very weak foam. Surely everyone reading this who uses the stuff has noticed that the material squeezed out of one of their gappy joints, when cured, is fragile foamy crap that can be easily picked away with a fingernail. If that seems like a good material to hold your A-joint together then why not just use old styro coffee cups or packing peanuts?

I know, I know... resident expert at every trade under the sun - Rick "scdiveteam" - contends it's great stuff because it has about a million-year "half-life" (a term he uses without even understanding it). Well Styrofoam last virtually forever too. You can break that crap up into a million tiny little beads and it still won't go away. Ever. But I wouldn't want to hold my cues together with it. We’re talking about using this soft, foamy stuff inside what is essentially a 1 ½-pound battering ram that will spend its entire life being slammed against a solid phenolic 6-ounce weight.

There are many high-grade structural epoxies that will bond a well-fitted A-joint together virtually forever. I prefer West System epoxy, and I use it by saturating each half (socket and tenon) first, allowing it to soak in for several minutes. I then use it within the actual joint as I screw the two halves together. In a very closely machined fit (NO "gaps"), with strategically placed pressure release grooves, the correct amount of epoxy will produce the best joint possible. Gorilla Glue has no place in this application.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On a related note,



That won't be necessary, Rick... I already know what will happen - NOTHING. For a few very simple and obvious reasons that you apparently can't grasp:

1) Any epoxy used in joining a cue together will have long ago cured by the time the cue is finished and taken on a plane. So there is no "fluid" within the cue, which means no fluid dynamics involved and therefore NO "hydraulic potential" at all. The very idea that a cue could somehow “ build up hydraulic pressure” is ridiculous - I mean it's serious, SERIOUS nonsense.

2) If there is any likelihood within the A-joint construction for hydraulic forces to cause damage it would certainly happen at the exact time those forces were being generated – which is during construction. That’s the only time there are fluid dynamics at play; if the cue survives the assembly process without suffering internal hydraulic-related damage then it will NEVER experience such internal forces in the future. This is not a matter of opinion; it’s a matter of FACT.

3) Since hydraulic action CANNOT occur with a cured, solid epoxy, let's consider the related idea that an air pocket trapped inside the cue could somehow cause a problem within a "non pressurized baggage area", and that if the pressure became low enough it could cause the cue to fail somehow. Well, that pressure would be in the form of an external vacuum, and even if it were a perfect vacuum - meaning zero air pressure - the total internal force on the cue could not exceed 14 psi.

The important factor here is the "psi" part, which refers to "Pounds [per] Square Inch". Now, I can't imagine the worst cuemaker having internal gaps in his cues equaling even a small fraction of one square inch (well, maybe Rick does...), but for argument's sake let's say that our imaginary cue has a full one-square-inch surface area of internal gap in the A-joint. And let's also say that the cue began its baggage-hold journey at sea level, and that the pilot defied all airline policy AND the known laws of physics, and flew the plane to the very edge of the earth's atmosphere.

The result of that impossible scenario would be that the A-joint of the cue, with it’s HUGE one-square-inch of gap surface-area would be subject to a total force of 14 lbs – presumably straining to force the A-joint apart. As a simple thought experiment, imagine taking two 1-gallon water jugs and tethering them to the butt end of a cue butt. Now imagine holding the cue vertically and lifting straight up until you are suspending the jugs off the floor. Are you worried your A-joint might pull apart? Shit, two 400-pound Sumo wrestlers couldn’t pull a cue apart that way. The very notion that some kind of hollow or epoxy-filled pocket inside a cue could "build up hydraulic pressure" and do so is ridiculous.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

TO SUMMARIZE:

A) Machining your A-joint fit in such a manner as to have gaps that need filling is very poor workmanship, and using Gorilla Glue to “fill” those gaps is even worse. No one who understands the nature of adhesives and how Gorilla Glue works would think otherwise.

B) It is not physically possible for a cue to “build up hydraulic pressure” after it’s adhesives have cured, under ANY circumstances – especially being placed in an “unpressurized baggage area”. The very notion is laughable.

TW

I have also been pretty negative on using Gorilla Glue for joints, ferrules, rings and such. I will not use is for anything except coring. What are your thoughts on using it for coring?

 

[Thomas Wayne]

[A long essay consisting primarily of intentional of obfuscation]...

TW, I stand behind that statement. Do you really think that a contained area that is "under pressure" goes neutral when the epoxy cures solid. This is "Not over-the-top preposterous" as you suggest. If the pressure in the thin wall containment is close to causing a failure, a few psi could be and will be the straw that breaks the camel's back if conditions are on the edge. Got it. Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it has not happened.

[more intentional of obfuscation, along with unnecessary and irrelevant "resume" points]]

You're right, Rick - that fact that I haven't experienced it does not mean it doesn't happen. The fact that it is complete nonsense and virtually impossible under the laws of physics governing our existence on this planet is why it doesn't happen.

If an A-joint tenon is 3/4" diameter (for example), then its face is equal to 0.44147 square inches. So using your estimation for a pressure increase of 6 psi [in an unpressurized baggage hold], the total increase in force on the A-joint with trapped air would be 6 x 0.44147 = ...wait for it... drum roll please... a whopping 2.65 lbs! That's less force than it takes to pull on a pair of jeans.

Now mind you, this scenario would be under the very worst conditions - the A-joint would have to be a perfectly sealed container with a fast setting epoxy instantly sealing all possible escape routes for any trapped air so that this air will remain under pressure forever (as if that EVER happens in cue assembly). Even then you contend that, if the A-joint construction is already "close to causing a failure" then that additional 2.65 psi will cause it to... what? Collapse? Explode?

The entire idea is ridiculous. Aerosol cans are shipped by the millions every day on cargo planes and they already are under extreme internal pressure. So if your silly idea has any merit, why don't we ever hear about cargo holds being suddenly and catastrophically filled with cooking spray or shaving cream? The reason is because a slight increase in pressure simply won't cause the kind of damage you're claiming it will. As a self-proclaimed expert diver surely you realize that massive 6 psi you're so worried about cannot be considered anything more than tiny in any real world scenario.

Your entire premise - that an A-joint can contain enough internal air pressure after the epoxy cures to cause a "blow out" if subjected to a 6 psi reduction in the surrounding air pressure - is pure and utter nonsense, and your ongoing insistence that it makes any sense at all is simply evidence of your continuing delusional mind set.

TW[

 

[skins]

Talking about exploding cues, Gus had some pretty hefty hands and forearms. The story goes that as he would assemble the pronged forearms to the handles, he would give them a final very firm turn at the end. He eluded that if the prongs didn't explode, they would be good forever... He obviously had this happen a few times... Those cues that "survived" obviously we're under a lot of pressure at the time of the build and thereafter. Those same cues have hit many a ball creating vibration and movement all the while and have not failed.

This may have nothing to do with glue but I thought it a neat story to share....

.... All Skate...

 

[JoeyInCali]

You're right, Rick - that fact that I haven't experienced it does not mean it doesn't happen. The fact that it is complete nonsense and virtually impossible under the laws of physics governing our existence on this planet is why it doesn't happen.

If an A-joint tenon is 3/4" diameter (for example), then its face is equal to0 .44147 square inches. So using your estimation for a pressure increase of 6 psi [in an unpressurized baggage hold], the total increase in force on the A-joint with trapped air would be 6 x 0.44147 = ...wait for it... drum roll please... a whopping 2.65 lbs!

Now mind you, this scenario would be under the very worst conditions - the A-joint would have to be a perfectly sealed container with a fast setting epoxy instantly sealing all possible escape routes for any trapped air so that this air will remain under pressure forever (as if that EVER happens in cue assembly). Even then you contend that, if the A-joint construction is already "close to causing a failure" then that additional 2.65 psi will cause it to... what? Collapse? Explode?

The entire idea is ridiculous. Aerosol cans are shipped by the millions every day on cargo planes and they already are under extreme internal pressure. So if your silly idea has any merit, why don't we ever hear about cargo holds being suddenly and catastrophically filled with cooking spray or shaving cream? The reason is because a slight increase in pressure simply won't cause the kind of damage you're claiming it will. As a self-proclaimed expert diver surely you realize that massive 6 psi you're so worried about cannot be considered anything more than tiny in any real world scenario.

Your entire premise - that an A-joint can contain enough internal air pressure after the epoxy cures to cause a "blow out" if subjected to a 6 psi reduction in the surrounding air pressure - is pure and utter nonsense, and your ongoing insistence that it makes any sense at all is simply evidence of your continuing delusional mind set.

TW[

Don't they use epoxy on plane parts/assemblies ? " Aircraft epoxy " ?
How come they don't explode or break from pressure? Are they more special?

If the A-joint's dried epoxy has internal pressure, shouldn't it be trying to expand ?

 

[RBC]

Rick,

I'm still stuck on the fact that you're confusing hydraulics and air pressure.

If you build up hydraulic pressure when assembling an A joint because the epoxy has completely filled the void and has no where to go, you can blow out the joint at that time. However, if you don't completely fill that void, you might build up some air pressure but it would certainly bleed out pretty quick. Uncured epoxy is not air tight and the wood certainly isn't either.

Hydraulics works on the principle that liquids do not compress. This non compressibility is what gives it the power to blow out the joint.

Pneumatics, on the other hand works on the fact that air does compress. Air pressure can get quite high and cause some real work or damage. But it takes large volumes of air to be compressed into an area many times smaller. Unfortunately, with an A joint assembly, there just isn't a big enough volume change to account for any real pressure increase. Not to mention the whole leaky wood thing as well.


It just doesn't make sense.


Royce

 

[RBC]

Don't they use epoxy on plane parts/assemblies ? " Aircraft epoxy " ?
How come they don't explode or break from pressure? Are they more special?

If the A-joint's dried epoxy has internal pressure, shouldn't it be trying to expand ?

Joey

When it's cured, it's a solid. Solids don't have pressure in them.

Maybe it's because he read the data sheet and it says it's 5000 psi epoxy?


Royce

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick,

I'm still stuck on the fact that you're confusing hydraulics and air pressure.

If you build up hydraulic pressure when assembling an A joint because the epoxy has completely filled the void and has no where to go, you can blow out the joint at that time. However, if you don't completely fill that void, you might build up some air pressure but it would certainly bleed out pretty quick. Uncured epoxy is not air tight and the wood certainly isn't either.

Hydraulics works on the principle that liquids do not compress. This non compressibility is what gives it the power to blow out the joint.

Pneumatics, on the other hand works on the fact that air does compress. Air pressure can get quite high and cause some real work or damage. But it takes large volumes of air to be compressed into an area many times smaller. Unfortunately, with an A joint assembly, there just isn't a big enough volume change to account for any real pressure increase. Not to mention the whole leaky wood thing as well.


It just doesn't make sense.


Royce

Hydraulic Head differential Royce. I am not confused as I am an expert in this area.

Fluids do not compress in volume by any measurable degree that is a factor but if you induce air pressure on top of a fluid in a vessel the total psig will be read in all directions within that vessel liquid or fluid. The pressure will not care which one it reads in PISG. The air pressure is the force that creates the even hydraulic head differential between the inside of the vessel and the outside ambient environment.

I respectfully disagree with your comments as the fast cure epoxy would also seal the wood fibers.

Have you ever installed a pin into a tight fitting nose too fast and blew out a forearm. The pressure is created as you thread in the pin and the volume area is reduced while the pressure is increased. Pressure and volume are to different commodities. Boyle's Law explains this and how it works.

If you guys wish to believe your theories go for it. By the way put your teeth under the pillow and you can wait for the tooth fairy also.:scratchhead:

When I posted that statement here years ago initially I was correct then as I am now. The thread was resurrected and out comes resident skate board artist who decided to take another jab at me.:nanner:

This situation that Ray Ray encountered with the A - Joint cracking ( not exploding as some might suggest in sarcasm) is because the decreased ambient environment to the outside of the cue effected the wall that was already loaded close to refusal in kips and it did not take much to break the camel's back. The root cause was a thick viscous quick cure epoxy. Ray always used thin slow cure which vented easier and cure in hour and days, not minutes.

Anyway you guys can talk about this till your blue in the face. I have said my peace.

I share some insightful information with this forum from time to time and you guys always try to turn it into a "got you" moment without merit or basis. The smarter thing to do if you don't want to believe me is to put the information in the back of your head and don't use fast setting epoxy for the blind hole areas if you are a newbie reading this.

Ray Ray was a well seasoned cue maker who learned the basics of cue making from Herman Rambo and he was certainly caught off guard when that happened. I better watch out because TW will say I am lying and Ray never shared that info with me.:rotflmao1:

The last time I shared my slightly oversized pin bore hole method that can produce zero TRO relative to the spindle bore and bearings, it was relentless the abuse and innuendos cast at me. That is until Bob (DZ) shared the fact that he also bored his hole a few thou over size so the pin could find it's way to get centered. All of a sudden the so called experts stopped like the day the earth stood still. Klaatu Barada Nikto.

Again on that subject, I want as close to zero as I can get because of cumulative error that can occur in the concentricity between the butt and shaft. I also go to great lengths on my shaft concentricity as well. I am not a machinist but to the machinists I know .001 is a mile. Cue making is all about tight tolerances and repeatability.

JMO,

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

The last time I shared my slightly oversized pin bore hole method that can produce zero TRO relative to the spindle bore and bearings, it was relentless the abuse and innuendos cast at me. That is until Bob (DZ) shared the fact that he also bored his hole a few thou over size so the pin could find it's way to get centered. All of a sudden the so called experts stopped like the day the earth stood still. Klaatu Barada Nikto.


Rick

Bob does not ream his hole a few thou like you so the pin could find it's way to get centered by manipulation .
You are misstating what he said for your own cause .
He takes it .002" over so the epoxy can do it's job on the locating pin .
And he doesn't ream the hole .005" oversized and push the pin b/c it's not centered like you do .
The pin is centered when the barrel bottoms out .
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4993599&postcount=138

 

[RBC]

Hydraulic Head differential Royce. I am not confused as I am an expert in this area.

Fluids do not compress in volume by any measurable degree that is a factor but if you induce air pressure on top of a fluid in a vessel the total psig will be read in all directions within that vessel liquid or fluid. The pressure will not care which one it reads in PISG. The air pressure is the force that creates the even hydraulic head differential between the inside of the vessel and the outside ambient environment.

You're right. Fluids transfer pressure. They don't hold or retain it. If there's no pressure applied to a fluid, then there can be no pressure transferred by that fluid. Simple hydraulics.

I respectfully disagree with your comments as the fast cure epoxy would also seal the wood fibers.

Any air pressure that may be created in this cavity, and it would be a very small amount of air pressure, would simply bleed right through any liquid. You see, the liquid epoxy is too big to fit through the wood fibers, but the air isn't. The epoxy is a liquid, so it will comply to that air pressure and allow it through. The only way a "fast set" epoxy could be any different would be if it could turn solid before the air could pass through it. I believe the air pressure is almost completely equalized in far less time than the fastest setting epoxies would cure.

Have you ever installed a pin into a tight fitting nose too fast and blew out a forearm. The pressure is created as you thread in the pin and the volume area is reduced while the pressure is increased. Pressure and volume are to different commodities. Boyle's Law explains this and how it works.

I'm very familiar with blowing out a forearm from pressure build up. It really only happens because you fill the void with a liquid and it has no where to go. Of course, this is hydraulics. but the pressure is applied by the pin attempting to force the epoxy to move when it has no where to go. Yes, you can build up some air pressure here too. But, not only have I never seen it blow out a forearm, but if you give it just a few seconds, the pressure will bleed out through the wood and be gone.

If you guys wish to believe your theories go for it. By the way put your teeth under the pillow and you can wait for the tooth fairy also.:scratchhead:

When I posted that statement here years ago initially I was correct then as I am now. The thread was resurrected and out comes resident skate board artist who decided to take another jab at me.:nanner:

This situation that Ray Ray encountered with the A - Joint cracking ( not exploding as some might suggest in sarcasm) is because the decreased ambient environment to the outside of the cue effected the wall that was already loaded close to refusal in kips and it did not take much to break the camel's back. The root cause was a thick viscous quick cure epoxy. Ray always used thin slow cure which vented easier and cure in hour and days, not minutes.

Yea, don't worry about that 300 pound suit case they had riding on top of the cues in that cargo hold. Look, we already know that the hold is pressurized so the whole air pressure thing is out the window. I don't know what happened to those cues, but I don't really think it had to do with air pressure.

Anyway you guys can talk about this till your blue in the face. I have said my peace.

I share some insightful information with this forum from time to time and you guys always try to turn it into a "got you" moment without merit or basis. The smarter thing to do if you don't want to believe me is to put the information in the back of your head and don't use fast setting epoxy for the blind hole areas if you are a newbie reading this.

Ray Ray was a well seasoned cue maker you learned the basics of cue making from Herman Rambo and he was certainly caught off guard when that happened. I better watch out because TW will say I am lying and Ray never shared that info with me.:rotflmao1:

The last time I shared my slightly oversized pin bore hole method that can produce zero TRO relative to the spindle bore and bearings, it was relentless the abuse and innuendos cast at me. That is until Bob (DZ) shared the fact that he also bored his hole a few thou over size so the pin could find it's way to get centered. All of a sudden the so called experts stopped like the day the earth stood still. Klaatu Barada Nikto.

Again on that subject, I want as close to zero as I can get because of cumulative error that can occur in the concentricity between the butt and shaft. I also go to great lengths on my shaft concentricity as well. I am not a machinist but to the machinists I know .001 is a mile. Cue making is all about tight tolerances and repeatability.

JMO,

Rick

Well Rick.

Keep on keepin on!

I'll continue to build my slightly higher volume than normal volume cues every month and not worry about whether or not there's any built up air pressure trapped inside for all of eternity. By the way, I can set the but of my cue on blocks about 24" apart and stand on it. I've even had a big guy stand on it, and it didn't break. I'm sure if I had any trapped pressure in there it..... Well, never mind.


Royce

 

[Thomas Wayne]

Hydraulic Head differential Royce. I am not confused as I am an expert in this area.

Clearly you are NOT an expert - virtually everything you've said about the possibility of cured epoxy having some sort of "hydraulic potential" is pure nonsense.

Fluids do not compress in volume by any measurable degree...

You got that part correct. However, the part you seem unable to grasp is that epoxy can only cause hydraulic damage while it remains uncured. Once is has cured it is no longer subject to fluid dynamics of any sort because it is NO LONGER FLUID.

[...] if you induce air pressure on top of a fluid in a vessel the total psig will be read in all directions within that vessel liquid or fluid. The pressure will not care which one it reads in PISG. The air pressure is the force that creates the even hydraulic head differential between the inside of the vessel and the outside ambient environment.

Yes, but once the epoxy is cured it is no longer a fluid. It is a SOLID, bonded to all the surfaces it is contacting. if it was inside your imaginary vessel and air pressure was applied AFTER it had cured that pressure would only be felt on the surfaces in direct contact with the pressurized air. This would NOT increase the pressure on the sides or bottom of the vessel unless the pressurized air could leak past the solid epoxy block. In the A-joint the air cannot leak past the cured epoxy because it has sealed itself to the walls and socket bottom during the curing process. Hell, you even say so:

I respectfully disagree with your comments as the fast cure epoxy would also seal the wood fibers.

Have you ever installed a pin into a tight fitting nose too fast and blew out a forearm. The pressure is created as you thread in the pin and the volume area is reduced while the pressure is increased. Pressure and volume are to different commodities. Boyle's Law explains this and how it works.

Again, this will only happen WHILE THE EPOXY IS UNCURED. Once it has cured there is no longer any "hydraulic" pressure involved, and the section where the pin is installed does not contain any of your IMAGINARY "hydraulic potential" (which does not exist anywhere in a finished cue).

If you guys wish to believe your theories go for it.

Everything I have said, and everything Royce has said is FACT. The only "theories" here are yours, and they're as CRACKPOT as they come.

When I posted that statement here years ago initially I was correct then as I am now.

Yes. Both statements contain the exact same amount of "correctness". Sadly for you, that amount is ZERO.

i have no idea what fields you are "an expert" in, but I can say one thing - if you honestly believe that a cured A-joint in a cue contains "hydraulic potential" then you are certainly not an expert in that field.

TW