ATTENTION: Justis Case Owners

[uwate]

John has Justis ever taken a shot at your cases in any thread that wasn't in response to you saying his cases were inadequate first?

I understand each of you wants business and wants to protect their reputations, but it always seems like its you taking the first shot and Jack doesnt like getting hit in the face so he punches back.

 

[mdavis228]

Sorry... What a killjoy.

 

[1pRoscoe]

You're always going to have people that have their favorites... A lot of you are friends with Jack and feel the need to defend his name, which I completely understand.

I've owned cases from both gentlemen. I've had good experiences with one and bad with another.

I have two on order from JB right now and a third next year.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Seriously, JB...

What the F***, over?

This is NOT a good business strategy.... ESPECIALLY when your competition is basically known as the high end case market leader.

Promote your own line, and leave Jack alone. I mean, seriously, the only possible thing you can do here is force Jack to put protection in the bottom of his cases, and then your are going to lose one of the main differentiating points between your line and his.

And coming into a thread like this that was made by Jack as information to his customers, is the ULTIMATE in classlessness.

You virtually guaranteed that at least (and probably more) 15-20 on here will NEVER buy one of your cases, and will probably even go further to tell others what a slimy business person you are.

To borrow a phrase from the old cigarette ads...

"Congrats baby...You earned it."

Short Bus Russ

But what about potential customers he's gained? What about the customers who are speaking out saying their cues were damaged? What about Jack feeling no accountability for this happening?

I don't own a JB case but would certainly go that route. Just sayin some of us pool players actually play. Your cues are gonna spend quite a bit of time in the backseat of a car bouncing around with the road, I'd hate having to worry everytime if something happened.

Russ, I know you don't like JB's method of boosting awareness but not exposing the dirty little secrets creates false value. JB welcomes people to critique his cases, I suggest someone takes him up on that. Easy $500 he's offering. Just in time for Christmas:grin:

 

[Guerra Cues]

Jack,
I have been trying to avoid posting comments on these threads between you and John but here we go.
I think that your case is the clunker. That is the noise cues make inside your cases... clunk, clunk, clunk...
More than once that I almost pulled the trigger on one of your cases but always backed off.
I will pull the trigger on one but will buy from John the interior and will put it inside one of your cases.
You are missing the point here Jack...
Everybody, but I am mean everybody loves your cases and you should be very proud of that. What you should not be proud of is the cheap fabric and interior you put on your cases...
Any time you buy a car... Isn't that car better any time? Don't you look for mpg improvement and comfort? Exactly what I mean on your cases...
You should look for improvement. Instead of fighting this interior cause why don't you say... "You know what guys? I understand your point of view and I will try to come up with something that makes you guys feel a lot better".. Even if you buy it from a Chinese manufacturer! Who the hell cares! It is still your awesome looking case with an awesome peace of mind and protection to JJ consumers...
Unless you're loosing the drive to build cases because you'll be retiring soon. I can understand that, but still... If you are a perfectionist you should look for improvement and swallow that pride and take the constructive criticism to new heights and better protection for your consumer cues.
Not taking sides here... Just a point of view... Yeah... John Barton is a very good friend of mine as well tons of other people that own very expensive Jack Justis cases...

 

[JB Cases]

John has Justis ever taken a shot at your cases in any thread that wasn't in response to you saying his cases were inadequate first?

I understand each of you wants business and wants to protect their reputations, but it always seems like its you taking the first shot and Jack doesnt like getting hit in the face so he punches back.

Jack has taken plenty of shots at me first without provocation from me. He even stated in one thread that he did so JUST to provoke me.

But I will grant you that the ultimate catalyst has always been me saying that his interiors are not as protective as mine.

He is more than welcome to debate that assertion. He is more than welcome to prove me wrong if he can.

But not with outright lies. Because when he choose to lie about our cases then I am compelled to go the distance and dissect every aspect of his cases in full detail.

After that's done then he take all the cheap shots he wants.

 

[jemerson23]

Actually that's not true. Jack has taken plenty of shots at me first without provocation from me.

But I will grant you that the ultimate catalyst has always been me saying that his interiors are not as protective as mine.

He is more than welcome to debate that assertion. He is more than welcome to prove me wrong if he can.

But not with outright lies.

Yet the thread you are so mad about had nothing to do with Jack till you brought him up.

Let it go, just promote your product.

You lose more prospective customers by showing contempt and child like class.

Jon

 

[ftgokie]

Jack Justis provided this information way back in Sep 2006. Only 4 people posted on the thread.

Now comes JB and out of the blue, trashes Jack Justis cases to promote his own. Totally classless in my opinion......

I bought my case used this year, and I didnt recieve any info about how to properly store a cue inside that particular case. I had been out of pool for about 12-15yrs or so and had just heard of Justis cases so I got one.. So honestly I had no idea about the issues with Justis cases. I had used Its George cases before and never had an issue, and I usually had a Shick or SouthWest in my case that I used as players....Maybe people will see this thread and not make the mistakes that obviously others have made..

and yes, I do think this is a bit excessive but wish both casemakers the best

 

[uwate]

JB welcomes people to critique his cases, I suggest someone takes him up on that. Easy $500 he's offering. Just in time for Christmas:grin:

I've never owned a JB case. What is this offer to critique his cases about?

 

[Rich R.]

Frankly, I don't like the tight fit of one of JB's cases and I agree that there is the potential to damage the finish of a cue with that tight fit.

Also, if people place cues in cases with only basic care, there is no chance of damaging them regardless of the case. However, I have seen many players slam their cues into their cases so hard that the small amount of foam suggested by JB wouldn't prevent any damage.

IMHO, if JB's cases were so damn good, he wouldn't have to highjack threads in order to trash Jack's cases. His cases would speak for themselves. As usual, JB has shown absolutely no class at all.

There are plenty of good quality cases on the market to choose from, whether it be a Justis, a Whitten, a Mernack, a Talisman or some other case. Based on JB's lack of class and his slimy business practices, I strongly suggest that everyone interested in a case consider the other choices and stay away from JB's cases.

 

[JB Cases]

Yet the thread you are so mad about had nothing to do with Jack till you brought him up.

Let it go, just promote your product.

You lose more prospective customers by showing contempt and child like class.

Jon

Like I said Jon, there are deeper things going on here. And yes the thread I am mad about had to do with Jack before I brought him up.

The only reason Doug Waltrip made a snide comment about my cases is because he wants to put me down and build Justis up.

So I reminded Doug that his Justis cases aren't as protective and that they don't provide as good a value.

No one knows exactly what gains and loses customers.

I hear what you are saying. From my perspective I am sure glad when I can find real information about a product rather than hype.

Since there is no form of Consumer Reports in pool that is established it falls to me to report on the comparative aspects of our products vs. the competition.

Even at that I have given Jack Justis a lot of leeway.

The information I posted in this thread for example comes from pictures I took two years ago.

Prior to that I have known that Jack was buying his interiors from China and from whom. All the while Jack was selling as if they were entirely made in the USA and allowed his customers to believe that they were. I didn't expose any of that.

Until this year you have never seen me do a side by side pictorial comparison of Justis cases and ours.

No, Jon, what I did do however is call Jack and send him emails periodically to let him know where I saw copies of his cases. I brought prospective customers to his booth many times over the years. I have sent people to his website. When the Justis West cases were first shown at the J&J booth in 2008 at the BCA show I sent Jack an email letting him know about quality issues on them that he should look at before a full launch. All these things were done for a friend and a colleague.

Jack's repayment was to call me a design thief based on an unsubstantiated private message. And now it culminates with outright lie about the protectiveness of our cases.

To wit: Jack said that our cases are undersized and cause scratches on the cue. That's a major lie about a competitor.

So how should I handle it?

Should I allow the most elite case maker on Earth to spread lies about me and my products with no rebuttal?

Don't you think that if I allow this lie to stand then I stand to lose more customers who believe it?

 

[vladmin]

I like my JB case. Im really happy with the interior, Im happy with how tight my shafts/cues are in the case and the only thing that I can really "complain" about is the fact that I dont yet have the money to get something fancier.

Other than that, it's old news. This feud is gonna keep going till the end of time

 

[Maxx]

True

You're on it. Do you also then agree that Jack's lie about our interiors in a for sale thread about cases is also classless?

Me, I think it classless to sell high priced leather cases with the cheapest possible interiors you can get in them.

I mean seriously, the guy charges $500 plus for cases and won't spend $2 more per case to provide some decent protection.

I don't know, I always thought that a case should protect the cues not damage them.

True, you do have a point about the other thread, However I don't believe that either one of you are gaining customers or respect.
Best of luck

 

[cuesblues]

Cases

Well you would think that one wouldn't need a warning that a cue could be damaged by putting it into the case a certain way. Especially when about a dollar's worth of foam rubber would stop any damage from occurring.

As to the offers yeah I think that Justis builds pretty cases. They are very attractive. Real head turners.

If you ever do accept one of those offers make sure you let the new owner know how to load it according to Jack's instructions.

Because some people on here have damaged their cues by not knowing the "proper" way to load a Justis case.

By the way on your Instroke there was no proper way. I built them so that the butts and shafts could be put in either direction.

In fact at shows I would literally throw the cues into the case pin down to show people that the cue COULD NOT BE HARMED.

Isn't this how a case should be first and foremost? Shouldn't it be as good on the inside as it looks on the outside? Or even better?

John:

I've been in the industrial control valve & instrumentation business here in Colorado for 32-years.
Every once in a while a competitor goes to an engineering firm and starts taking shots at us.
The few times I've had to take off the gloves and shoot back since I am trained in reverse negative selling, I always win the battle.
To make sure that I don't lose the war I'll look at a group of engineers and say "I wouldn't blame you guys if you didn't specify either one of us".
I could tell you some stories of competitors lashing out and causing both of us to be taken out of the specifications, and nobody needs to be put under a microscope...it does no good.

There is something going on other than a personal issue causing this negative selling, and I can assure you that it isn't doing either one of you any good.
There will always be the "mob mentality" on this forum, but you should look forward to building great cases, and marketing on the level of Instroke unless you want to just take orders from AZ members and not reach out to the global market.
All of the Jack Justis bashing in the world isn't going to change the mindset in every pool hall in the country, unless you want to go out and do presentations with both cases side by side, which may get you a couple of orders.
Justis cases fit a narrow market, mostly to people inside the pool scene, cue builders, pro players and collectors.
Instroke is a large market and every league player knows about Instroke.
I'm confused at this point which market you are going after because if you think the guys making me offers on my Justis case are going to say "oh, OK" when I hand them a JB case saying it's better, that is never going to happen.
They also want my It's George, Thomas, Whitten & Fellini cases.
It's George & Instroke cases are very easy to sell here locally.

I've been a fan of your products for a long time and have some rare Instroke cases.
Now that everyone is under a microscope there are a couple of things I don't like about my Justis case, as with your stuff, but what good is this doing for business when before all of this I didn't care?











Peace

Ted

 

[JB Cases]

Frankly, I don't like the tight fit of one of JB's cases and I agree that there is the potential to damage the finish of a cue with that tight fit.

Tight fit? Try snug fit. A five year old child can remove a cue from our cases with two fingers. You are twisting words to make your point. But this coming weekend you can watch the live video as we go over all these points. You are free to make any video rebuttal you want and prove me wrong if you can.

Also, if people place cues in cases with only basic care, there is no chance of damaging them regardless of the case.

Care to bet on this? I have a Justis case. If you bet me then I will place the cues in the case gently and then proceed to show you how a cue gets damaged. Oh hell, I will just show it to you for free.

However, I have seen many players slam their cues into their cases so hard that the small amount of foam suggested by JB wouldn't prevent any damage.

Wow, good point. Which only goes to show that Jack should put MORE foam rubber in the case or otherwise make it so that there is NO CHANCE of damage occurring. Why not plan for the worst behavior instead of building a barely protective interior and hoping for the best behavior? Why put ALL the responsibility on the customer to have to constantly baby their case when it has the cues inside?

IMHO, if JB's cases were so damn good, he wouldn't have to highjack threads in order to trash Jack's cases. His cases would speak for themselves. As usual, JB has shown absolutely no class at all.

My cases do speak for themselves. Read what everyone who has one writes about them. Everyone who gets one has nothing but praise for the interior protection. As usual I point out the truth of the matter and you can't handle it. I am sorry that you paid so much money and Jack delivered to you so much less than you should have gotten. Instead of adequate padding you got a note warning you that your cues could be damaged if you failed to follow instructions.

There are plenty of good quality cases on the market to choose from, whether it be a Justis, a Whitten, a Mernack, a Talisman or some other case. Based on JB's lack of class and his slimy business practices, I strongly suggest that everyone interested in a case consider the other choices and stay away from JB's cases.

Your suggestion is noted. Send them here www.jbcase.com to find a full list of alternative case makers listed on my front page complete with links to their websites.

Will you take responsibility for your recommendations? I mean if you tell people to stay away from my products and they follow your advice and their cue gets damaged will you pay for it?

I guess not because your idea of cue protection is that it doens't matter how the case is made, the customer should adjust to the case and not the other way around.

 

[larrynj1]

never having received any instructions on how to put a cue into a case, i instinctively put the butt in with the bumper side down, and the shaft in with the joint side down. i don't want to line the shaft tube with chalk dust by putting it tip end down in the case. i also don't think much of people i see rubbing their tips into the carpet at pool rooms.

whenever i bought a case in the past, i always made sure that the shaft could go in joint first. i will not be buying a justis case in the future for this reason.

i've seen most of the posts between jj and jb, and imo, jj is usually the one that provokes the animosity. his recent post on the for sale thread, saying jb's cases will scratch your cues was actually lifted from a previous post on the same thread by someone else. seems to me, jack picked up on it quickly for a needed response to jb's criticisms of jj's cases.

i own an instroke and a jay flowers tribute case and am very happy with both.

 

[RackRunner]

Today's my birthday, and I just spent the last half an hour reading this thread. That's a half an hour of my life I'll never get back. But it was entertaining. So after all this he said/he said, I guess we could all go out and buy a Whitten case. All kidding aside, I have owned both cases and I now have a Whitten I use everyday. I think Mr. Barton makes the best case for protection, I think Mr. Justis makes the most beautiful case, and I think the Whitten case is somewhere in the middle. What I wouldn't give for a blending of the Justis look with the Barton protection. Maybe you two should drop the guns and stop shooting at each other and simply collaborate on a case together.

Now for the pros and cons...
I love the look but not the funtionality of the Justis pockets. You can't store much in there and it's hard to reach in and grab what you're looking for.
I love the protection of the GTF. But, I don't like the fact that I have to put two shafts tip down and two shafts tip up. Maybe it's just me, but I'd prefer to have all the tips down.
These are just my thoughts...
Everyone have a great day!!!

 

[JB Cases]

John:

I've been in the industrial control valve & instrumentation business here in Colorado for 32-years.
Every once in a while a competitor goes to an engineering firm and starts taking shots at us.
The few times I've had to take off the gloves and shoot back since I am trained in reverse negative selling, I always win the battle.
To make sure that I don't lose the war I'll look at a group of engineers and say "I wouldn't blame you guys if you didn't specify either one of us".
I could tell you some stories of competitors lashing out and causing both of us to be taken out of the specifications, and nobody needs to be put under a microscope...it does no good.

I fully agree with you. This is why I never went this route with Jack or anyone prior to this. In the past I have always praised Jack's work and only stuck to one point about our protection being the best in the business. I know full well that my cases are not "perfect" and that flaws can be found in anything if one looks hard enough.

But I won't lay down and allow Jack to outright lie about my product. This is too far.

There is something going on other than a personal issue causing this negative selling, and I can assure you that it isn't doing either one of you any good.

For me it's entirely personal.

There will always be the "mob mentality" on this forum, but you should look forward to building great cases, and marketing on the level of Instroke unless you want to just take orders from AZ members and not reach out to the global market.

I already am marketing to the global market. I get orders and inquiries every week from people who don't come to me through AZ. Sterling is about to go bigger on the marketing of all the new case lines we have put out in the past year and a half. I do look forward to where we will be in the next few years. I fully expect that JB designed cases will gain more than 50% of the market share in the next couple years.

All of the Jack Justis bashing in the world isn't going to change the mindset in every pool hall in the country, unless you want to go out and do presentations with both cases side by side, which may get you a couple of orders.

I know this. But the fact is that the information will be available for anyone who takes the time to read it or watch the videos. And like I said above it's personal. If I wanted to I could dissect every other case made and show off our advantages against those cases. I do not do this because I respect all the rest of my case making colleagues. Jack has made this personal and made many disparaging comments which culminated today in an outright lie about our cases. So he invited the comparisons.

Justis cases fit a narrow market, mostly to people inside the pool scene, cue builders, pro players and collectors.

Clearly. And a lot of those folks are buying based on the hype and think that they are getting something that is far better than what they are actually getting. Now, those few that happen to come across my comparisons will be able to make a more informed choice based on solid information and not just hype.

Instroke is a large market and every league player knows about Instroke.
I'm confused at this point which market you are going after

I am in all segments of the market. I make high end custom cases, I design mid range to low end production cases. What I am going after here though is simply to wipe away the veil of superiority that some people feel Justis has. How that plays out in the market I have no idea. As you said it won't change a lot of people's minds. I already know that a "name" and a pretty case are much more important than how well it really protects the cue to a lot of people. Walking in with a Justis is like having an hot model on your arm and no cares if she is clueless or not.

because if you think the guys making me offers on my Justis case are going to say "oh, OK" when I hand them a JB case saying it's better, that is never going to happen.

Never is a long time. I have customers selling off their Justis cases and investing the money in ours. I wouldn't bet against me on this one.

They also want my It's George, Thomas, Whitten & Fellini cases.
It's George & Instroke cases are very easy to sell here locally.

Sure, those are all good cases. Good products always sell well.

I've been a fan of your products for a long time and have some rare Instroke cases.

I know. I'd love to own that dealer case. Someday maybe we can work something out.

Now that everyone is under a microscope there are a couple of things I don't like about my Justis case, as with your stuff, but what good is this doing for business when before all of this I didn't care?

Well for me if someone tells me what they don't like and I can fix it then I try to. To me that's the only way to do business is to be in a constant state of improvement. All I want to do is show everyone what we do and why we do it. This isn't a beauty contest, it's a performance contest in my opinion. If you want a case from me and you say you want it a certain way then I will build it that way unless there is a good reason not to and I will discuss that with you. That's the difference. With Jack it's basically take it or leave it. I think it's good for business to point this out to people. To let them know their options. Maybe you didn't care before because you were ok with the status quo. Now you don't have to be.

Peace

Ted

To you as well and your advice is warmly accepted and taken in the spirit it's meant.

Best,

John

 

[cubswin]

you are a complete ass

two year old thread you dig up to advertise in, because you and Jack don't like each other.

 

[cubswin]

You're always going to have people that have their favorites... A lot of you are friends with Jack and feel the need to defend his name, which I completely understand.

I've owned cases from both gentlemen. I've had good experiences with one and bad with another.

I have two on order from JB right now and a third next year.

I'm not friends with Jack, and not with JB. I know JB is the bigger ass today though. Marketing by bashing someone else, instead of just showing the qualities of your product, may sell more cases. It is however, very tasteless and shows the maker of a quality product in poor light. Its a shame that he designs good products, but has the personality of a horses hind end.