AZ poll results for 8-9 BIH position shot

Joe T

Joe T

Well-known member
AZ poll results for 8-9 BIH position shot
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4HAOA1IAnU4cAOA4ceTS3cale3caUe@

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We received about 40 answers (I might have lost a couple). My reasoning for this question was just to see how we?re all thinking and maybe to see how different levels are thinking. Attached is a word document that has this list of choices and the added replies underneath (with names taken out, I think I?ll double check that right now) I like that we all post our opinions but I think when we do it publicly in words it might be a little different than how we would REALLY play certain shots but we did pretty good here, I heard a lot of honesty in the messages sent. Thanks for taking the time to participate, sorry it took me so long to get your results back.

For those that wanted to know how I would play it, I would go 3-4 rails with low outside because I believe that?s what the shot tells me to do. I try to live by entering the position zone from the correct direction and using the rails & spin to help control my speed. If it were a tight table or situation and I?m not feeling up to par I might set up under the 8 and just follow past the side but if you?re not feeling good, even that is doggable and in which case you should probably just do what it is you know you should do!

Like I said at the beginning there really is no right or wrong answer, there?s only what we would do and what we learn.
 

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It's very interesting to read the different shot selections people would use. Thanks for gathering and sharing this information Joe!
 
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Where is the next question? This is good for me to learn and see how others would shoot it!

I would have never thought about drawing it three or four rails!

That is definately the kind of info I need in my grab bag for 9 ball!
 
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txplshrk said:
Where is the next question that is good for me to learn and see how others would shoot it!

I would have never thought about drawing it three or four rails!

That is definately the kind of info I need in my grab bag for 9 ball!
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Yes, thanks for the interesting thread Joe. I too did not think of the 3or4 rail shot, I voted for the two-long-rail route. They both drop you in on a good angle, but one starts life as a draw shot and the other as a follow shot (both should pass over the center of the table). It looks like more people liked the draw than the follow route, interesting.

Dave
 
3 rails is the best shot because it leaves a larger margin for error. if you come straight down or even 1 rail down you have a relatively short vertical line of good area to shoot the 9 ball from. But if you come 2 rails towards the 3rd rail you have a > or a < depending on which side you like to do it on which equates to a lot more distance the cue ball can travel and still be in line for the 9.

That's what percentage shape is.
 
Hi Joe. I'm glad I emailed with the same pattern you chose as your path. LOL, maybe there's hope for me after all :)

These are fun ideas, hope you provide more like that.
 
cubc said:
3 rails is the best shot because it leaves a larger margin for error. if you come straight down or even 1 rail down you have a relatively short vertical line of good area to shoot the 9 ball from. But if you come 2 rails towards the 3rd rail you have a > or a < depending on which side you like to do it on which equates to a lot more distance the cue ball can travel and still be in line for the 9.

That's what percentage shape is.
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Yes, but you missed my point, that in essence these two routes (draw 3 or follow 2) are the same (when you get to the business end). Draw them out and see for yourself, both drop the cue ball into shape position the same way (the good way as you point out).

Dave
 
This was my input...

I would shoot the shot with ~1/4 to 1/2 tip of follow... a stun shot... stroked somewhat firmly depending on the exact table conditions... my rail target for whitey is for it to contact the upper (long) rail exactly at 2 diamonds from the head rail... my target speed is for whitey to stop immediately after making contact at my rail target... my thought process is this approach would give me the least chance of scratching... with a margin of error on my cue ball speed... and additionally, I wouldn't have to juice whitey up much to move him up-table for position on the 9.

Last night Mr. J and I set up the shot numerous times... and in my first five attempts I got damn near perfect four times on Mr. J's 9-foot GC. Mr. J attempted his preferred way five times also... the 3-railer that Joe prefers... and he got real good on the 9 only one time as I recall. He then shot it "my" way... and also got damn near perfect several times in a row. I should mention that his cloth is a bit old... and therefore he had to juice it up quite a bit to go three rails.


Just some more data.

Mt advice is to try the shot five times each way (pick two or three at most) and grade yourself based on the quality of your position for the 9.
 
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DaveK said:
Yes, but you missed my point, that in essence these two routes (draw 3 or follow 2) are the same (when you get to the business end). Draw them out and see for yourself, both drop the cue ball into shape position the same way (the good way as you point out).

Dave
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Oh definately. I wasnt responding directly to your post. I do agree follow 2 works the same way. Both shots are good to know because they can be used OFTEn in games and sometimes you cant draw and others you cant follow but you can still get the same results (just on diff sides).
 
Joe,

Great thread. I did not get a chance to reply but also try to come into the position line any time that I can. Crossing it leads to trouble for me too often especially when the CB is traveling a great distance.

I hope to see more threads like this one. Very enjoyable seeing what everyone else would do!

JOE K.
 
The reason why the 3/4 rail option is the best at a high level is it's almost dogfree. It eliminates the chance of a scratch or a 1 in 10 bad roll that makes you pull your hair out. The 1 rail option (any route) has a scratch somewhere if you flinch or make a bad stroke.

I think (only my opinion) the longer you play for $ over years, the more you look for scratch-free routes to get out that are risk-free. Setting up the shot as fun isn't a good indication. Setup this shot and bet $100/try with a friend on getting out, and do this 100x (to simulate years of gambling).

When your heart is pounding and you're fighting to get out, a nice outside english (people called it a hard draw, but it's not) stroke with some draw gets you there every with minimal focus on speed control. If you hit it hard, you float to straight-in. If you hit it perfect, you have an easy shot. If you hit it terrible and hit it soft, you have a hard but makable cut. So, always focus on hitting SLIGHTLY harder than you think and you're out.

I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong and I'm not saying I'm an expert... it's the highest % shot given a lot of pressure, if a lot of $ is on the line or a world championship hill-hill situation. If you can play 1-rail perfectly every time when your heart is pounding through your throat and you NEVER find a pocket to scratch in or mess up your speed: you da man.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
The reason why the 3/4 rail option is the best at a high level is it's almost dogfree. It eliminates the chance of a scratch or a 1 in 10 bad roll that makes you pull your hair out. The 1 rail option (any route) has a scratch somewhere if you flinch or make a bad stroke.

I think (only my opinion) the longer you play for $ over years, the more you look for scratch-free routes to get out that are risk-free. Setting up the shot as fun isn't a good indication. Setup this shot and bet $100/try with a friend on getting out, and do this 100x (to simulate years of gambling).

When your heart is pounding and you're fighting to get out, a nice outside english (people called it a hard draw, but it's not) stroke with some draw gets you there every with minimal focus on speed control. If you hit it hard, you float to straight-in. If you hit it perfect, you have an easy shot. If you hit it terrible and hit it soft, you have a hard but makable cut. So, always focus on hitting SLIGHTLY harder than you think and you're out.

I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong and I'm not saying I'm an expert... it's the highest % shot given a lot of pressure, if a lot of $ is on the line or a world championship hill-hill situation. If you can play 1-rail perfectly every time when your heart is pounding through your throat and you NEVER find a pocket to scratch in or mess up your speed: you da man.
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I know that most people in here are at a whole different speed than me, however if you set the cue ball in the wrong position and opt for the 3 rail draw shot it can scratch in the corner by the nine very easily!

I agree that the 1 rail is the easiest to scratch on, but the potential to scratch is there on every shot if you don't know what you are doing! LOL
 
Setting up a back cut on the 8 is a close 2nd, in my opinion. It's not first because as I mentioned to Joe in my reply, you're introducing a skid factor. Also, as I forgot to mention in my reply, that ball becomes slightly missable. Not very missable, but slightly.

The 3-rail with natural low left here is not only my preferred shot, but also a shot all players should, in my opinion, become very comfortable with. This angle comes up all the time, especially in 9-ball. Many times when making the 9, it's played with low outside (just like this) to come two rails and completely take any scratches out. This shot is a slight extension of that, because you have to hit it a bit harder and a bit longer than on that route.

I really feel that once a player becomes super familiar with this route, when playing on true tables, he'll choose it over any of the other options.

And SpiderWeb, I really liked your analysis above.

- Steve
 
txplshrk said:
I know that most people in here are at a whole different speed than me, however if you set the cue ball in the wrong position and opt for the 3 rail draw shot it can scratch in the corner by the nine very easily!

I agree that the 1 rail is the easiest to scratch on, but the potential to scratch is there on every shot if you don't know what you are doing! LOL
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I can't emphasize enough how bad you have to hit it w/ the 3/4 rail route to scratch. The only possible scratch would be the bottom-right pocket in the diagram (if you're shooting the 8 into the bottom-left pocket) and you'd have to snaaaaaaap spiiiiiiiiiin that CB to get it to lengthen 2 diamonds into the pocket. Try it next time you practice --- see if you can do it. The worst thing you can do is juice it WAY too hard and come 4-rails to kiss on the 9-ball, I think.

Joe-- what a cool idea for a post. Post some more scenarios like that. A good one would be to shoot an OB into the side with a >45 degree angle, shooting away from where the 9 is now. There are so many routes, I'd love to see what people say.
 
Some of the differences between going 2 rails cross table with top and 2 rails with outside are; With the top and you plan on hitting high center sometimes you?ll hit slightly off center which is very is to do and that?ll have a big effect coming off that 1st rail. When you put the medium amount of outside spin on the cb going 2 rails out of the corner you could accidentally put a little less or a little more and still be okay. Also as soon as you hit the 8 with straight top your cue ball could pick up a little outside spin from the collision.


The routes aren?t identical either, with the top you?re hitting higher up on the first rail (probably middle diamond) than you are with the low outside (probably 1st diamond) and what happens here is that cue ball hits the 2nd long rail from a different angle and the angle the top spin produces causes the cue ball to rebound stronger towards the 9 ball, with the other angle the cue rebounds off the second long rail with less force because it?s not going directly into it as much and the cue ball tends to go more towards the end rail which helps slow you cue ball down some more.
It?s the little things like this that got me hooked on pool in the first place, I Love?em.
 
cigardave said:
... I would shoot the shot with ~1/4 to 1/2 tip of follow... a stun shot... stroked somewhat firmly depending on the exact table conditions... my rail target for whitey is for it to contact the upper (long) rail exactly at 2 diamonds from the head rail... ...
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I think this is the correct approach, except I prefer an angle that allows me to play the cue ball with natural roll. That takes all the question out of how much follow you have on the ball.

This is for a ball in hand shot. Very often the choice of shape for BIH is very, very different from what you should play for without BIH. With BIH you can select the angle so that a scratch is impossible for the 1-rail path.

If I were playing a 7-8-9 sequence, then I'd probably go for the 3-rail (end, side, side) path from the 8. Getting the right spot for the 1-rail shot is something to try for only when the 7 is in just the right place or the other path is totally blocked (for a shot with earlier balls, obviously).
 
I learned something

I tried the 3-rail position last night and you're right, it was a cinch compared with the 1-rail up & back I had suggested. I blew position on the first 1-rail attempt I tried last night. So I tried the 3-rail position and quit after getting perfect 5 times in a row, it was too easy. Thanks for the lesson!
 
Joe T said:
The routes aren?t identical either, ....
It?s the little things like this that got me hooked on pool in the first place, I Love?em.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
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Tried it some last night, and ya, the angles are better the draw route.

Dave, still learning and learning and learning and learning and learning and practicing a bit too
 
Thanks

Joe, thanks for taking the time to post and analize the shot. I replied and you responded to my email with sincere comments and interest. This exercise was great especially having the answers anonymous! Kudos to you!! What's the next exercise for us pool nuts to think about??

Curly
 
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