back-hand swoop and cue twist poll

[dr_dave]

greatness is possible, even with "flaws"

I know I've seen a video of Buddy Hall (maybe his "Clock System" video) where he swears by swooping or twisting of the wrist. He can play a little, so obviously whatever he's doing is working for him.

There are many top players who do things that would not work well for the mere mortal. If somebody practices something enough (and he or she has lots of natural talent), he or she can make anything work.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

I agree 100%.



Colin,

Honestly, because I am so anti-swoop, I'm not that thrilled about spending a lot of time with this sort of testing, but I will do what I can. First, I need to find a proficient swooper. Do you feel like taking a trip to Colorado (I'm not implying you are a swoop maniac ... it just sounds like you are better at it than anybody I know around here)?

Regards,
Dave

Dave,
Can't see a trip to Colorado on the immediate cards, but hope to get there and try some high speed stuff with you one day.

I think I can video some demonstrative shots to make some estimates on the magnitude of the effects of some swoop shots.

I agree that players should avoid swooping like the plague, especially on ordinary table play shots while they are learning proper alignment and stroking. Perhaps when they get those in order they might benefit with some swooping experimentation.

Perhaps the greatest incentive to study swoop shots is because it is so prevalent. For someone to really understand the nature of the variables in their play, and hence their errors, getting swoop into perspective is crucial.

e.g. If I swoop slightly on a straight in shot, CB 2' from OB and OB 2' from the pocket, how much will this put the OB off line from the initial alignment? How much of that is due to the contact induced spin on the CB and how much from the change in direction of the CB. And to this we can also derive whether these numbers are reduced significantly if we adapt a longer or shorter than pivot point bridge length.

I've seen so many players get driven crazy, not knowing why they are missing shots. Often they blame swooping, when their problem is alignment. Another problem arises from players habitually swooping slightly on slower strokes. They'll align to undercut and then swoop slightly to the OE side to increase the cut. Then when they have to play a firm shot, they cannot perform the swoop in an equivalent way. I think this is the major reason beginner players have little confidence in potting with power. Knowing the effects of swoop with speed then is another important variable in understanding the causes of missed shots.

So by knowing the effects of swooping, we might identify when, or if ever it can be our friend, when it will have a negligible effect and when it is our foe.

I don't expect advising the use of throw to be anything other than the exception to the rule for standard play. But I think understanding it and recognizing it when it creeps into a player's game will forever be a central concern for those trying to master the game.

One thing I have advocated is highly focused pre-alignment followed by stroking the CB without looking at the OB as a training method. The main reason for this is to teach the player to trust their alignment and to make sure they stroke straight straight trough the CB. IMHO looking at the OB during the stroke encourages the tendency to swoop. This happens because a signal comes to the brain during the forward stroke, telling the player that the OB is going to miss left or right. Then the hand reacts, almost intuitively and sub-consciously in the appropriate way trying to steer the shot back on line.

Hope you don't mind me getting into the minutia of the subject. I do understand the concept of the original video, which is to point out the silliness of expecting magical results out of swooping and twisting. Quite obviously, I expect most if not all players would be better than they currently are if they had never swooped a ball. However, swooping is a disease that seems to infect all player's strokes at some time or another.

Colin

 

[spoons]

There are many top players who do things that would not work well for the mere mortal. If somebody practices something enough (and he or she has lots of natural talent), he or she can make anything work.

Regards,
Dave

I totally agree. I think the one thing that's always stuck in my head relative to discussions like this one is an article that Eva Mataya wrote for Pool and Billiard Magazine years ago. In it she said that the most important thing is getting predictable and repeatable results.

I guess if you can do that, then you've won the battle...no matter how you stroke the cue.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

By back-hand English (BHE), do you mean aim-and-pivot before the stroke (e.g., see my Novemebr '07 article), or do you mean swoop during the stroke (e.g., see NV B.33)? I've seen Filipino players do both. I personally think they can do whatever they want, and they will still play well. However, I think mere mortals are better off sticking to methods with greater consistency.

Dave

I kind of consider them the same - I'm sure many do not. Whether you pivot during the stroke or before. I never "swoop" - requires WAY too much talent.

Based on what you said, I wonder if you should record a top filipino player who pivots / swoops. Bustamante is someone who comes to mind. At least interview one of them to get their input. It's easy for you and me to say it's crap and only for people with amazing talent. Let's hear from one of them-- there might be some insight there.

Personally, I refuse to believe that one nationality is genetically superior to another with pool. If they're using it widely, there's a reason... not because it's a gimmick. I think we can either learn from the people beating us to death or we can default to saying that non-swooping/pivoting etc. is the most accurate and repeatable way to play. There's prob 1000's of players over there who would vehemently disagree. Your thoughts?

Dave

P.S. I refuse to agree that 100's of top filipino players (90% of which many of us never heard of but would still spot many of our top players) aren't mortals. They're people like you and I - they just know more.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

[snip Colin's post about wanting to test the swoop stroke]

I applaud your desire to actually test this, but I think you have two problems with doing so:

1. Swooping is difficult (impossible?) to test for the same reason it's advised against: it's inconsistent. You won't be sure you're doing it exactly the same way each time unless you build a "swoop stroking" robot - and then it won't be anything like most humans' swoop strokes.

2. For the test to be meaningful, you have to identify and quantify the specific benefits you expect from swooping. What are they exactly? How can they be quantified? How can it be shown that they can't be done without swooping?

I hope you do figure out a way to test it, if only because I'm sure it will confirm what has always been said: it can't produce anything that can't be produced by hitting the cue ball with a straight stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

I too would be interested to see the high speed video and the analysis just to see what it says. I've always been in the camp that's skeptical about swooping, and believed that the benefits of any swoop are actually the result of hitting the cue ball in a different place and not a function of the swooping action itself. I have no doubt that "swoopers" believe that they're hitting the cue ball in the same place with both types of strokes, but my unscientific, gut-feeling is that they really aren't.

Spoons,

I've done some testing with BHE. An overview of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0

Part of that testing was comparing a pivot and straight cueing versus swooping to the same contact point. There is a noticeable and consistent difference of about 1 inch over 6 diamonds travel for a large swoop. Perhaps half this for a minor swoop. That variation is enough to make a lot of shots miss.

Is Massey really swooping in that video? It looks to me like his cue goes straight through the ball. His hand does come up (and his cue tip goes down) at the end of the stroke, but that looks to me to be after the ball is long gone, and it's just part of the natural pendulum motion of the stroke.

That video is not conclusive, as to whether he gets any significant downward swoop during that impact with the CB, but I think it is significant that he has a clear tendency to lift the rear hand, hence swoop, around that time of impact. It is a tendency that a lot of players, including myself have, when attempting to gain high spin:speed ratios on draw shots. It's my experience that when timed correctly, there is a significantly stronger feeling of ripping and spinning the CB using this method. However, it does require a lot of practice to rip the shot correctly consistently.

Oh, and while on the subject I spotted another shot, this one by Efren that demonstrates a reverse-swoop shot. It appears he is using it to help avoid the cue from deflecting into an object ball during a shot that requires left hand english. This is a useful shot that I've had to play from time to time, so it's useful to be able to compensate for the effect of this reverse-swoop when playing this type of shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWRAfZ25JRU

The effect of reverse-swoop tends to be to reduce the amount of sidespin produced and to increase the squirt. Hence, when playing this shot, if using BHE for alignment, it helps to use a shorter bridge length. For someone who plays these IE shots by feel, it would also likely help if they shortened their usual bridge length by a couple of inches.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I kind of consider them the same - I'm sure many do not. Whether you pivot during the stroke or before. I never "swoop" - requires WAY too much talent.

Are you saying you think swooping is different from pivoting during the stroke? I believe they're the same thing.

Based on what you said, I wonder if you should record a top filipino player who pivots / swoops. Bustamante is someone who comes to mind. At least interview one of them to get their input. It's easy for you and me to say it's crap and only for people with amazing talent. Let's hear from one of them-- there might be some insight there.

How do we know that Bustamante or other Filipino players swoop? Are there videos showing it?

Personally, I refuse to believe that one nationality is genetically superior to another with pool. If they're using it widely, there's a reason... not because it's a gimmick. I think we can either learn from the people beating us to death or we can default to saying that non-swooping/pivoting etc. is the most accurate and repeatable way to play. There's prob 1000's of players over there who would vehemently disagree. Your thoughts?

My thought is that it isn't necessarily a superior technique because superior players use it. I'm (of course) very impressed with the ability of top players, but I'm usually not as impressed with their knowledge of how or why they excel.

I bet the big reason that Filipino players in general excel at pool is not anything to do with their technique, but that a much higher percentage of them take pool seriously from a young age - probably because there are fewer alternatives for the average Filipino youth and definitely because their top players are so much more revered there than ours are here.

pj
chgo

 

[gpeezy]

I think it that people will adjust their stroke to do what is needed for whatever action. I don't really make conscious twists, swoops, pulls and whatever else. I do know in some situations I do use a different delivery. I haven't seen myself play but I would bet there is some swoopage or twistage goin on.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I've done some testing with BHE. An overview of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0

Part of that testing was comparing a pivot and straight cueing versus swooping to the same contact point.

Is that comparison shown in the video? At what point?

Efren that demonstrates a reverse-swoop shot. It appears he is using it to help avoid the cue from deflecting into an object ball during a shot that requires left hand english.

The object ball was on his left and he was using left english - I don't think the cue ball could have "deflected" into the object ball with any kind of stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[BRKNRUN]

I would vote no that there are not..

As far as the discussion of "avoiding" it...I don't know about that either.


I will sometimes apply the english through a swoop(ish) method...It is usually a easy shot and it is just easy to set up for a straight no english shot and then just err to the side of english I want to apply.......As long as I keep the bridge hand very stable...(the key) the ball will be pocketed.

As I get more than about a 1/2 tip away from center and the position required becomes more precise.....I use the pivot since as already mentioned it can be difficult to be consistent.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Are you saying you think swooping is different from pivoting during the stroke? I believe they're the same thing.



How do we know that Bustamante or other Filipino players swoop? Are there videos showing it?



My thought is that it isn't necessarily a superior technique because superior players use it. I'm (of course) very impressed with the ability of top players, but I'm usually not as impressed with their knowledge of how or why they excel.

I bet the big reason that Filipino players in general excel at pool is not anything to do with their technique, but that a much higher percentage of them take pool seriously from a young age - probably because there are fewer alternatives for the average Filipino youth and definitely because their top players are so much more revered there than ours are here.

pj
chgo

PJ:

I think Dr. Dave was saying that BHE during a stroke was swooping. I was just saying I thought it was the same thing (like yourself). I usually call it pivoting. Swooping is new to me as of today.

I agree with your thoughts. I'm not sure it's all because of the "starting when they're young" thing though. Heck, many american players have been playing their entire lives and couldn't smell the filipinos' jock straps.

I'm trying my best to not be a conspiracy theorist or anything. I'm just saying I think there's more to pivoting than the discussion we've all been having. I don't think it's a more or less english thing. Of course we should assume that straight forward and straight back deliver the most consistent results; however, we don't know what we don't know... is all I'm saying.

If they're all doing it (nearly every single filipino I've watched in person is either pivoting to center or away from center... sometimes before, sometimes during), there HAS to be a reason why. Because they're playing better than the rest of the world--- maybe there's something about the pivot that makes it more consistent than straight.... otherwise, they'd all be stroking straight, right?? I doubt an entire nation is stroking crooked because no one taught them well and Scott Lee, Stan Shuffet, Dr. Dave and the lot haven't run seminars there yet.

All I'm saying is before "We the Pool Players of the USA" roll our eyes at something and call it a bad habit, maybe we should really know why they do it first. That's all I can say.

Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Spidee:
I doubt an entire nation is stroking crooked because no one taught them well and Scott Lee, Stan Shuffet, Dr. Dave and the lot haven't run seminars there yet.

Actually, I'm guessing that's exactly the reason. They all learn from the guys at their local pool halls who they emulate, and those guys learned from whoever they emulated at the local pool hall, etc. We tend to take for granted the advantages we have here - like enough money floating around to support the growth of a pool instructors industry, and let everybody travel and meet so many other players from different backgrounds, and have computers so they can participate in these online learning opportunities. It's a huge difference.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

[snip Colin's post about wanting to test the swoop stroke]

I applaud your desire to actually test this, but I think you have two problems with doing so:

1. Swooping is difficult (impossible?) to test for the same reason it's advised against: it's inconsistent. You won't be sure you're doing it exactly the same way each time unless you build a "swoop stroking" robot - and then it won't be anything like most humans' swoop strokes.

2. For the test to be meaningful, you have to identify and quantify the specific benefits you expect from swooping. What are they exactly? How can they be quantified? How can it be shown that they can't be done without swooping?

I hope you do figure out a way to test it, if only because I'm sure it will confirm what has always been said: it can't produce anything that can't be produced by hitting the cue ball with a straight stroke.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
You're right that it would be very hard to produce concrete exact data. Such a thing would require a stroking robot with swoop capabilities, high speed cameras etc.

But there are testing methods that can produce clear contrasts, from which useful estimates can be made.

Some examples:
1. Playing 100 max left english side shots at X speed using straight vs swoop method. If attention is paid to the execution, one could determine if the distribution of results supported the theory or not, and even a measure of degree of different could be estimated. From this an estimation of the relative rotation or spin:speed ratios could be garnered. Same thing would be true for draw shots.

2. Another test would be to break with straight vs upward swoop method. The straight break might hit a stack of 3 coins 60% of the time while upward swooping breaking shooting may clear a single coin 60% of the time but hit the 3 coin stack 95% of the time. It could be concluded that upward swooping can reduce CB bounce significantly. Perhaps by 60%+ when hit well.

3. I've already discussed some testing I did using BHE to compare the effects of swoop. With a little more experimentation I think I could narrow down the amount of CB deflection caused by swooping in at 3 levels (max, medium and low) to give deflection per diamond traveled within accuracies of 1mm I expect.

Other types of tests may be more subjective. e.g. Potting a ball off a rail with follow hard enough for the CB to travel 3 feet using both methods and comparing the success rates over many shots. Perhaps trying the same test with various players of various abilities.

The thing is, if I can make a certain shot with a lot more consistency and accuracy using swoop, than I can using a piston stroke, then it may be worth considering developing that swoop shot, rather than trying to replace that particular shot with a piston type stroke.

Note that I included a video above showing Efren playing a reverse swoop to avoid the cue being deflected into another OB. Similar types of normal sideways or upward or downward swooping motions can be used for various shots that pop up occasionally where having the cue follow through in a straight line risks making illegal impact with another ball. Granted these are quite unusual, if not rare shots, but having a feel for executing them can be useful. I actually played a similar shot to Efren's a couple of weeks ago in a match. The shot needed IE for good position but the cue stood a good chance of being deflected into an OB that sat beside the CB. I played the IE with reverse swoop, so that the cue followed through away from the OB. Without knowing that shot a player would have had little chance of compensating for the aim of that shot or playing it without fouling.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

If it helps to clarify things for anyone, my definition of swooping is that the cue does not travel in a straight line, a piston like motion.

BHE, or aim and pivot methods can, and I believe should be used with a straight piston like stroke wherever possible.

I only brought BHE up because it is a tool I use a lot when playing shots with English, and it is a tool that has allowed me to differentiate some effects of piston stroke english versus swooping stroke english.

Colin

 

[catscradle]

I don't even know what "back-hand swoop with cue twist" means. It sounds like a new dive in some Olympic divers repetoire and I can't see how that will help anybody's pool game.

 

[Williebetmore]

If it helps to clarify things for anyone, my definition of swooping is that the cue does not travel in a straight line, a piston like motion.

BHE, or aim and pivot methods can, and I believe should be used with a straight piston like stroke wherever possible.

I only brought BHE up because it is a tool I use a lot when playing shots with English, and it is a tool that has allowed me to differentiate some effects of piston stroke english versus swooping stroke english.

Colin

Colin,
Just a note to say no one will ever catch me trying to swoop, pool is fairly difficult the way it is; and to add WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?? AND DAMN GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK ON AZB!!!!!!

 

[Colin Colenso]

Is that comparison shown in the video? At what point?



The object ball was on his left and he was using left english - I don't think the cue ball could have "deflected" into the object ball with any kind of stroke.

pj
chgo

The swoop, or I called it swipe, is mentioned a few minutes into the video I think. Quite early, but not discussed in great detail. The video was done in one take on a mobile phone so it's a bit crappy. I am working on a more professional video which will discuss BHE in much more detail. Perhaps I'll include a section on swooping

In Efren's video he was using left english but he cued it with a left to right stroke, rather than a straight or right to left stroke which is the normal method of swooping.

This was to prevent his cue, not cue ball, from hitting the object ball due to the normal effect of a cue bouncing leftward after left english is applied. The reverse swoop seems to reduce this leftward bouncing / deflection of the cue.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Just a note to say no one will ever catch me trying to swoop, pool is fairly difficult the way it is; and to add WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?? AND DAMN GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK ON AZB!!!!!!

Hi WBM,
Good to see some of the old folk still hanging around

I moved back from China to Australia a year or so ago. Just recently got my US pool table set up so getting back into the game. Hence my return.

Oh, and I got stuck on the Ron Paul Revolution which ate up most of my Internet time. lol

Colin

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Colin-

Let me echo WBM's thoughts. It's REALLY good to see you post on here again. Your posts have a LOT of insight. I learned a lot from your youtube videos.

Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin-

Let me echo WBM's thoughts. It's REALLY good to see you post on here again. Your posts have a LOT of insight. I learned a lot from your youtube videos.

Dave

Thanks Dave,

It's good to be back thinking through the various ideas / theories / methods and trying to make sense of them with like minded folk

Colin