Back stroke pause?Calling Blckjck and Bob Jewitt.

[av84fun]

mnorwood: In Pool School we define a "pause" as the smooth transition of the backwards to forwards movement of your arm. How much time is spent on this non-movement is up to the individual. The important thing is that the transition is smooth and sub-councious........SPF=randyg

PS: It's only a can of worms for certain people. Everyone has to make this transition.

Randy, it is with great respect that I think the above definition contributes to the "can of worms" aspect to this discussion because it introduces debate on what a "pause" is.

That debate has descended into argument over whether an object does or does not stop when changing direction in a linear plane and other such minutia.

Other than such minutia it is obviously possible to accomplish a "smooth transition" without and conscious intent to PAUSE if that word is defined...as it should be IMHO...as

an intentinal stoppage of motion of the backstroke during which the muscles of the grip hand/arm become consciously relaxed and a specific shift of focus on the OB is accomplished.

To qualify as a "pause" the stoppage of motion must last at least 1 second.

Any less comprehensive definition guarantees debate about what a pause is and thus ruins the discussion about the positives and negatives about adopting the pause.

 

[crappoolguy]

the reason i do it is because it gives me more control and also guarantees i look at the object ball last.

 

[BRKNRUN]

If you are a player that snatches the cue back, an exaggerated pause at the backswing may be very beneficial to practice.

As already compaired to the golf swing. both will have a pause at the beginning of the swing...In Golf there is a "trigger" that starts the swing from the set position...The beginning of a pool stroke (I suspect) has a similar trigger that gets the mucsles moving...(for some it may be a bad trigger like raising up either head or shoulder)

When your mucsles are static they require a "trigger" to get them going...without a pre-trigger you are likely to get a jerky motion.....(aka: in the Golf world....The Yips)

In Golf the "trigger" is usually a slight forward press....but it can be a number of things like a tilt of the head, or a slight bounce/flex/bend in the knees.

On the backswing...In both Golf and Pool...the perception I get from both is that you are winding up a spring...In Golf your body is the spring..(your upper back thigh)...You basically wind up that spring and then release the spring... My perception of the backswing of a pool stroke is similar to that of winding up a spring and then letting the spring unwind through the CB.

I think (again for both Golf & Pool) if when you wind up that spring you pause (too long) your muscles "re-settle" and then you end up needing another "trigger" to get them going again...(I would suspect most have seen someone guilty of a too long of pause. It looks like the draw the cue back...pause..draw it back just a bit more (or have some other quirk) and then deliver the followthrough...That just a bit more or quirk is the "trigger"...(My perception anyway)

So...(as I see it) the pause at the back of your backswing should only be just long enough for your spring to transition from a wind up to a release iun a fluid motion...(if that makes much sense)

The keys (I think) are, pause at the beginning, incorporate a "good" trigger..(that does not affect your stroke accuracy) to get your fluid smooth backswing going...pause just long enough for your body to transition smoothly from the backwing to the follow through...

I have heard many times that very good players look almost like they are "dancing" around the table...The stroke has a definate rythum to it...That rythum is what makes the stoke fluid.....But that now leads to "what rythum is right for you"...

I think that rythum of stroke depends on your personality....If you are a fast walker, fast talker...you probably are going to have a fast rythum stroke...If you are a slow walker, slow talker (with the southern drawl)...You probably are going to have a slow stroke rythum...

Tin Cup...used the term "Dollar Bills"...It can be a simple phrase thought like this right before you pull the cue back that will set your stroke tempo...

Anyway ...food for thought

 

[av84fun]

BRKNRUN..."So...(as I see it) the pause at the back of your backswing should only be just long enough for your spring to transition from a wind up to a release iun a fluid motion...(if that makes much sense)"

Very interesting and thoughtful post. But your above statement underscores a core issue in the discussion...that being the varying definitions of what "pause" means in the context of a pool stroke.

Your description uses the word "fluid" which derives from "flow" which means..."to move with a continual change of place"

Again, without descending in a useless debate about whether objects stop before changing directions in a linear plane, the issue here is what I will call the "snooker pause" (even tough Buddy used it long before Allison or Steve Davis adopted it).

It seems to me that the OP's question had to do with the snooker pause which should be defined before it is discussed...and it is certainly not a "fluid" motion but rather a definite absense of motion.

I use the snooker pause and for me, it provides two very important benefits.

1. An accelerating forward stroke is critical IMHO and the snooker pause facilitates that because, starting from zero mph, the stroke virtually HAS to accelerate. Conversely, in the fluid motion stroke, the shooter is more likely to decellerate the forward stroke...again IMHO. (of course, top players don't)

2. It is HIGHLY possible to fail to shift the eye focus back onto a SPECIFIC SPOT on the OB during the progress of a fluid stroke. In fact, the virtually constant motion of the cue inhibits that re-focusing because the eye is fundamentally distracted by motion. By using the snooker pause, the shooter, if nothing else, guarantees an uninhibited re-focus of the eyes and there is much to recommend doing so.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,

 

[Snookerd]

I'm not sure if Randy would remember me, I didn't actually take his class .. but was the shooter in the background paying attention to everything and have several friends who took his class a few years back when he came up to Idaho Falls Idaho at Pockets to give the lessons. Some of those lessons were passed on to me, and I will admit.. one of the things that stood out most and that I still have implemented in my game IS the SPF method.. although my speed is pretty quick, you can definatly notice and it does make the difference.. if you do not implement much.. at least implement a SPF routine.
P.S. If you want to see how it works ... stop by the Pocket in Idaho Falls, ID if your in the area... I will show you how it works...

 

[BRKNRUN]

BRKNRUN..."So...(as I see it) the pause at the back of your backswing should only be just long enough for your spring to transition from a wind up to a release iun a fluid motion...(if that makes much sense)"

Very interesting and thoughtful post. But your above statement underscores a core issue in the discussion...that being the varying definitions of what "pause" means in the context of a pool stroke.

Your description uses the word "fluid" which derives from "flow" which means..."to move with a continual change of place"

Again, without descending in a useless debate about whether objects stop before changing directions in a linear plane, the issue here is what I will call the "snooker pause" (even tough Buddy used it long before Allison or Steve Davis adopted it).

It seems to me that the OP's question had to do with the snooker pause which should be defined before it is discussed...and it is certainly not a "fluid" motion but rather a definite absense of motion.

I use the snooker pause and for me, it provides two very important benefits.

1. An accelerating forward stroke is critical IMHO and the snooker pause facilitates that because, starting from zero mph, the stroke virtually HAS to accelerate. Conversely, in the fluid motion stroke, the shooter is more likely to decellerate the forward stroke...again IMHO. (of course, top players don't)

2. It is HIGHLY possible to fail to shift the eye focus back onto a SPECIFIC SPOT on the OB during the progress of a fluid stroke. In fact, the virtually constant motion of the cue inhibits that re-focusing because the eye is fundamentally distracted by motion. By using the snooker pause, the shooter, if nothing else, guarantees an uninhibited re-focus of the eyes and there is much to recommend doing so.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,

Good point regarding the clarification of the defenition of pause.

I have no experience with snooker (or the snooker pause)

The way I envision (basically the same thing you defined above) regarging the pause of a cue backswing is in line with the way Jack described it for a Golf swing...

The "club appears" to pause for a breif moment at the top while the body (muscles) transition at the top of the backswing.

or for pool

the "cue appears" to pause for a brief moment at the back while the body (muscles) transition at the end of the backswing.

I think the rest is probably personal preference...My hunch is that for most it will fall in line with the persons personality.

I (suspect) from reading many of your posts that you are a fairly deliberate person...very detail oritented...so that may have something to do with why you would prefer a more deliberate pause type stroke....I suspect Allison is probably the same way...Nick Varner...same thing...

Rodney, Earl, Fransico.... on the other hand...more of a freewheeler type...I suspect they would have a hard time maintaining a deliberate pause.

No matter which preference a person chooses....I think a piece of huge importance is right before whatever pause is used....That piece is how smoothly is that cue being drawn back to the pause...(or transition point)

Especially on that long draw shot.....

 

[dr_dave]

reasons for the "pause"

I played snooker tonight and my snooker tutor suggested that I put a pause in my backstroke for the purpose of better timing on my draw technique.

Many pool players do not use a back pause. What are the advantages of a no back pause technique if any?

Very few pool players do this. The only one I can think of is allison fisher, a snooker player.

I would like to hear from blackjack and bob jewett on this issue.

FYI, I have a good summary of various viewpoints on this topic here. It is also covered in my stroke "best practices" document. He's a quote from the document:

Smoothly and slowly pull back the cue, ?pause? (even if only for an instant) at the end of your backstroke, and move your eye gaze to the OB (or more specifically, to the ghost-ball target [see NV 3.1]). Some people recommend a deliberate pause at the end of your backstroke (i.e., before your final forward stroke) to help give your eyes time to focus on your target before your final stroke. Alternatively, you can shift your eye gaze from the CB to the OB at the end of step 3, before the final backstroke. Even if you do this, you might consider pausing at the end of the final backstroke to prevent you from rushing the transition to the final forward stroke. If you don?t use a deliberate pause, be very careful to have a smooth and non-rushed transition to the final forward stroke. Note - for shots where the cue tip contact point is critical (e.g., jump shot, masse shot, break shot, when elevated over a ball), focusing on the CB tip-contact point (instead of the OB target) during the final forward stroke can be more effective.

Regards,
Dave

 

[gforces1911]

Nice to see you

There are a lot more knowledgeable posters than myself on this forum and I certainly do not have their breadth of experience, their knowledge or skills and I enjoy reading and learning from their posts.
I am a student of the game and write a lot of white papers to myself to aid the learning process. Following is the white paper I put together on this topic in 2002 or 2003, that perhaps some will find of interest.

Once again blending some golf instruction (Holographic Golf by Larry Miller) with pool I might offer the following:

Larry describes the three static positions of the golf swing as 1. the address (posture, stance and alignment),2 the top of the swing (at the point of trasition from backswing to forward swing and 3 the balanced finish.

In pool the three static positions might be, 1 the set at the cue ball before the final stroke, 2 the transition from backswing to forward stroke and 3 the freeze on the follow through at the end of the stroke.

It appears to me that the pause (or set) at the cue ball before executing the final stroke is very important. Certainly, there are some excellent players who do not have a perceptible set at the cue ball from practice strokes to final strokes. Having said that, it apears to me that this set in static position one allows the player to learn to "lock down the shot" and to learn to feel and experience the sensations required to sense the shot is on before they loose the arrow.

Certainly open to debate but the second static position would be the transition from backswing to forward stroke. For some, as elsewhere mentioned, Buddy Hall, Allison Fisher, etc. there is a perceptible pause at static position two. I might suggest you flip a quarter in the air several times and observe the transition from the top of the flip at the point where gravity takes over and the quarter begins to return to earth. I may be wrong, as I often am, but it appears to me that it is the smoothness of this transition that is critical to delivering a proper stroke. For some this will involve a perceptible pause, while for others it will not. However, the transition must be as silky smooth as the transition described above observing the quarter.

The third static position is the freeze on the follow through. The mantra slow back, accelerate through to a fluid finish might apply here. Sometimes this will be described as staying down on the shot. Again it appears that having a smooth stroke that flows to static position number three is a very critical objective.

Having said all of that, the point of Larry Millers book is that if the golfer learns to be in the proper position at the three static positions of the golf swing then the swing can't help but naturally flow through the ball down the target line correctly.

Sorry so long but I found the concepts in Larry Miller's book very practical.

For all those that are interested- the author of this post has a great workout book called Black Belt Billiards. I bought a copy from him. It is a good product.

 

[randyg]

Randy, it is with great respect that I think the above definition contributes to the "can of worms" aspect to this discussion because it introduces debate on what a "pause" is.

That debate has descended into argument over whether an object does or does not stop when changing direction in a linear plane and other such minutia.

Other than such minutia it is obviously possible to accomplish a "smooth transition" without and conscious intent to PAUSE if that word is defined...as it should be IMHO...as

an intentinal stoppage of motion of the backstroke during which the muscles of the grip hand/arm become consciously relaxed and a specific shift of focus on the OB is accomplished.


To qualify as a "pause" the stoppage of motion must last at least 1 second.

Any less comprehensive definition guarantees debate about what a pause is and thus ruins the discussion about the positives and negatives about adopting the pause.

THANKS, THAT'S GREAT!........SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

BLACHJACK. Send it, I'm waiting my friend....SPF=randyg

 

[Fixer]

mnorwood: In Pool School we define a "pause" as the smooth transition of the backwards to forwards movement of your arm. How much time is spent on this non-movement is up to the individual. The important thing is that the transition is smooth and sub-councious........SPF=randyg

PS: It's only a can of worms for certain people. Everyone has to make this transition.

If you put it like that, I may have a tiny tiny pause in the back. LOL.

 

[mikepage]

[...]Absolutely it is no can of worms...except for (as Randyg mentioned) a VERY small group of people.

and

PS: It's only a can of worms for certain people. Everyone has to make this transition.

Hey, lighten up, guys.

It was just a joke....

 

[justin.powell]

Everyone pause at the backstroke, one way or another. It is at the point where the cue changes direction, some just do it longer than others. JMO.

I've never seen Efren do it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I played snooker tonight and my snooker tutor suggested that I put a pause in my backstroke for the purpose of better timing on my draw technique. ... I would like to hear from blackjack and bob jewett on this issue.

First I'd like to know what your instructor means by "pause." As you may have noticed, different people have different interpretations of the word. One definition is to have zero acceleration and zero motion of the cue stick during a time longer than zero seconds. That happens to be the definition I like. For others, the definition is like how Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart defined hard-core pornography: "I know it when I see it."

 

[Bob Jewett]

Everyone pause at the backstroke, one way or another. It is at the point where the cue changes direction, some just do it longer than others. JMO.

People how define a pause that way rob the concept of its meaning.

 

[av84fun]

FYI, I have a good summary of various viewpoints on this topic here. It is also covered in my stroke "best practices" document. He's a quote from the document:


Regards,
Dave

Dave, great to see you posting here. For those who don't know, Dave is an acknowledged scholar on the physics of pool (and other things) and has compliled a wealth of free information on his web site to supplement his book.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

First I'd like to know what your instructor means by "pause." As you may have noticed, different people have different interpretations of the word. One definition is to have zero acceleration and zero motion of the cue stick during a time longer than zero seconds. That happens to be the definition I like. For others, the definition is like how Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart defined hard-core pornography: "I know it when I see it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin.powell
Everyone pause at the backstroke, one way or another. It is at the point where the cue changes direction, some just do it longer than others. JMO.

People how define a pause that way rob the concept of its meaning.
__________________

Right Bob...but IMHO, your definition does the same thing.

"One definition is to have zero acceleration and zero motion of the cue stick during a time longer than zero seconds."

Since "longer than zero seconds" can mean 1 nano second which is the essential premise of Justin's definition.

Anything other than a definite, purposeful, intentional pause of sufficient length to relax the muscles contracted in the back stroke effort and to obtain a DEFINITE focus back on the OB is not worth discussing.

But I will amend my former definition from 1 second to the time it takes to say the word "pause" which is what Scott Lee instructed me to do...if I wanted to pause DEFINATELY at all. I don't have a stop watch but to say the word and initiate forward motion takes about a half second AFAIC.

(And Scott, I have finally stopped saying "pause" DURING my backstroke!!!)
(-:

Regards,
Jim

 

[JimS]

Good grief! Just do it for a while and see how it works for you. I tried it and it helped my game. It sounds like you're just wanting to not do what your instructor suggested and are looking for a way to justify your unwillingess to try something new to you. Seems like you could just stop arguing and do it for a while.

 

[av84fun]

Good grief! Just do it for a while and see how it works for you. I tried it and it helped my game. It sounds like you're just wanting to not do what your instructor suggested and are looking for a way to justify your unwillingess to try something new to you. Seems like you could just stop arguing and do it for a while.

Didn't sound that way to me? the OP just asked for other opinions...which is not arguing as AFAIC.

And as this and about 20 other threads prove, there isn't even a generally accepted definition about what constitutes a "pause."

How long is the pause you adopted?

Regards,
Jim

 

[poolplayer2093]

i read in an artical that mika immonen started doing it after seeing alison do it. he said it helped him