Ball-in-hand ethical question

Jimmy M. said:
If I could convince myself that I was doing nothing wrong, then I would have no problem adopting the "snooze you lose" mentality. In your case, you believe that's the right way so, if you're happy with yourself and don't feel like you have done anything wrong by not letting an ignorant opponent know that you have fouled, then you've done the right thing.
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In my particular case, if you were to ask me if I feel like I cheated, I would say, "No, I don't." For one thing, I always call fouls on myself, however, this time I didn't as I was disgusted with myself for miscuing and immediately sat down. I also assumed that my opponent saw the obvious miscue and knew he had BIH. By the time I realized that my opponent didn't know he had BIH if he wanted it, he was already lining up to shoot. Any attempt on my part to distract him would have been sharking. :eek:
 
I Agree

shanesinnott said:
If I foul, I ALWAYS tell my opponent, no matter what the situation or what is on the line. He may or may not have been paying attention, but if the situation was reversed, I would want and expect him to tell me if he fouled. It is the right thing to do.

I learned to play Snooker in Ireland at age 12 and this was taught to me on my first lesson and has stuck with me ever since.
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And have given my opponents ball in hand playing for hundreds of dollars per game in one pocket and 500+ nine ball sets when they did not know I fouled. Maybe it is from playing golf for several years but I think it is bad karma to not be honest about your fouls.:eek: :eek:

-don
 
It only takes one time of you not being honest playing pool to tarnish your reputation. You never know who is watching. In all reality though - that should not be the reason you tell them you foul and they didn't see it. If you can't figure out why it is the right thing to do then I am not going to waste any time explaining or convincing anybody any different.

BVal
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
In my particular case, if you were to ask me if I feel like I cheated, I would say, "No, I don't." For one thing, I always call fouls on myself, however, this time I didn't as I was disgusted with myself for miscuing and immediately sat down. I also assumed that my opponent saw the obvious miscue and knew he had BIH. By the time I realized that my opponent didn't know he had BIH if he wanted it, he was already lining up to shoot. Any attempt on my part to distract him would have been sharking. :eek:
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Well, you didn't do anything wrong anyway. You didn't have time to even realize what was happening. Anyway, there is no right or wrong. It's not cheating. There are rules and none were violated.

These players that say they would not point out BIH or the wrong ball, I don't even necessarily believe they know 100% what they would or would not do in advance. Who's the opponent? Are they a friend and someone you respect or is he/she the pool room loudmouth. What's the real situation? You may have only a few seconds to decide and human behavior is not that easy to predict. I feel like I know what I would do, but I have disappointed myself before.

I was playing some cheap sets in a close race and pushed out. When I pushed, I accidentally double hit the cueball and knew it. I'm sure my opponent saw it. I actually didn't know it was a foul at the time, you know, since it was just a push out and you don't have to hit the rail or anything. He didn't say anything. I began thinking about it after the match and realized it was a foul. I felt bad and hoped he understood that I didn't know the rule.

Chris
 
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Not the same as original thread starter

BazookaJoe said:
OK
How about this scenario. You are in a $1000 tournament and have done quite well so far. You are a match away from sure money, and your oponent has been keeping you in your seat. He breaks, makes the one ball and starts to shoot the 3.

Do you tell him about the 2?
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This scenario is not the same as fouling and not owning up to it, it is your opponents responsibility to hit the correct ball. Although I might tell them anyway, unless they are this guy - I was playing a guy 200 a game one pocket and they needed three and I needed two, I left for the bathroom and they were shooting a long back cut and if they made had little chance of getting shape on another ball. I could see the table from the bathroom and my opponent just raked the balls down table and started racking, I went to the bathroom and came back and said nice out and went ahead and punished the cheater by winning seven in a row to bust his azz;) ;) I still played him but I never left the table when it was his shot:rolleyes:

-don
 
In our local yokel league here, it is your duty to inform the incoming player of BIH. You are also required to notify if the opponent lines up his break shot beyond the head string prior to his shooting it.
 
I just hate it when it is the opposite. You know when your opponent always thinks that you fouled cause the cue ball can not go in the direction you send it. I have one local older player that just thinks that the cue ball can only do so many things. So he always claims that I foulded or I double hit the cue ball. He just loves telling everyone at the hall about it too. Well he is wrong. Maybe its just his lack of creativity that holds him back. When someone asks me about the shot I don't argue I just set it up and show them the shot. And they all say the same thing ----good hit.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
In my particular case, if you were to ask me if I feel like I cheated, I would say, "No, I don't." For one thing, I always call fouls on myself, however, this time I didn't as I was disgusted with myself for miscuing and immediately sat down. I also assumed that my opponent saw the obvious miscue and knew he had BIH. By the time I realized that my opponent didn't know he had BIH if he wanted it, he was already lining up to shoot. Any attempt on my part to distract him would have been sharking. :eek:
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I never said you cheated, but your title was "Ball-in-hand ethical question". Since you were asking about ethics, I gave an answer. In your particular case, it sounds like it was an honest mistake on your end. Ethics would only play a part if you knowingly let your opponent shoot while also knowing they were unaware that they had ball-in-hand. I figured you just made an honest mistake but were asking, "had the situation been different, what would other players here do?"
 
Snap9 said:
I just hate it when it is the opposite. You know when your opponent always thinks that you fouled cause the cue ball can not go in the direction you send it. I have one local older player that just thinks that the cue ball can only do so many things. So he always claims that I foulded or I double hit the cue ball. He just loves telling everyone at the hall about it too. Well he is wrong. Maybe its just his lack of creativity that holds him back. When someone asks me about the shot I don't argue I just set it up and show them the shot. And they all say the same thing ----good hit.
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There is a local player here who did this to me. I guess I let it get to me a little more than I should have because, all of a sudden, my ethics and character were in question. I had shot a ball that a blind man could have seen wasn't a foul and then, after winning a couple more games after that shot, he stops while racking the balls and says, "I know it's after the fact, but I just wanted to let you know that I think that shot you hit a few games back was a foul". Like, "I think you cheated me 3 games ago and, although I don't want to do anything about it now, I just want you to know I think you're a cheater". Yes. It is extremely annoying. I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but it's a pretty classic move.
 
shanesinnott said:
If I foul, I ALWAYS tell my opponent, no matter what the situation or what is on the line. He may or may not have been paying attention, but if the situation was reversed, I would want and expect him to tell me if he fouled. It is the right thing to do.

I learned to play Snooker in Ireland at age 12 and this was taught to me on my first lesson and has stuck with me ever since.
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I agree with you in one respect Shane. There was never any question of relying on your opponent or the referee to spot the foul. You owned up to it. There are many times when only you know you have inadvertently touched another ball for instance, even if they were looking.

That isn't the same as telling them what they can do as a result. Knowing the rules is part of the skill set you bring to the table. I would never volunteer advice in a real match, and nor must the referee. If he wants to give up an advantage from ignorance that's his problem. If asked for a clarification of the rules though I would be happy to afford one. I've played against opponents who weren't as disposed to do so, especially when learning English billiards. That the referee (the opponents team member) wouldn't advise the rule before a shot either, only call the foul on me afterwards, was an abuse of that understanding.

Boro Nut
 
Just to be clear....If I foul in any way, I walk away from the table and sit down. I do not make a point of telling the guy he should pick up the ball and move it to another location unless he asks me "ball in hand?".
I will then, of course, say yes.
 
Thecoats said:
And have given my opponents ball in hand playing for hundreds of dollars per game in one pocket and 500+ nine ball sets when they did not know I fouled. Maybe it is from playing golf for several years but I think it is bad karma to not be honest about your fouls.:eek: :eek:

-don
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Tornament or league play is one thing, but, when most are betting their own money, thier attitudes can change drasticly about Karma and integrity. Most are gambling because they think they are getting away with something anyway.
 
I only gamble..

ironman said:
Tornament or league play is one thing, but, when most are betting their own money, thier attitudes can change drasticly about Karma and integrity. Most are gambling because they think they are getting away with something anyway.
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I only gamble and do not play tournaments or league pool and I always tell my opponent when I foul, I do not, however, coach my opponent on what ball to shoot.

-don
 
All this "me, me" talk is fine and dandy. Being ethical does result in more happiness than being a crook. Mny here said it well.

But no one has mentioned the effects ON THE GAME OF POOL ITSELF, from cheating.

I've seen many a player quit the game for good because of cheating and the other bullcrap involved in league play. To dis this wonderful game, simply for a win, is stupid and damages us all.

I say, look at the bigger picture to understand the positive and negative effects in these situations.

Jeff Livingston
 
Pool players always like to say that pool is a gentlemans sport, so they should act like it too...

I have learnt 2 things that is really important to remember while playing pool.

1. ALWAYS give the cueball to your opponent after a foul

2. NEVER ask the other guy what he does for a living, because normally poolplayers don't work so they don't like that subject
 
I am not sure as to how I would have answered this question 10 years ago but, today I can tell you that I always tell my opponent when I foul. One of the main reasons is that I now run pool leagues and tournaments and someones opinion of me and my character means a lot more to me now than ever before. I am the most honest person you will ever come across when it comes to the game of pool. I will always give my opponent the best tightest rack that I am capable of and if I foul I will always be the first to say so. Players are always giving me a hard time because I inspect my own rack way more than I would ever examine the rack that my opponents give me. No one ever checks the rack when I am racking the balls and that's a great felling. I would never feel good about winning a match or a game if I had to feel I had to cheat in order to do so. I know me, and if I were to cheat someone, I would mis an easy shot later on because it bothered me so much that I cheated to win. Integrity is everything to me. It like they say, it's not what you do when others are watching that matters. It what you do when no one else is around that matters most.
 
the bottom line is that winning isn't that freakin important to me. My reputation and respect from my opponents outweighs it
 
If you expect your opponent to call all of your fouls and know when and if they have ball in hand what happens if:
Your opponent (from their vantage point of 3 to 12 feet and possibly a bad angle) sees what they think is a foul. If they walk up to the table and take ball in hand how can you argue with them?? You conceded the right to call your fouls by not calling them on yourself.
If you always call your own fouls and something happens that is questionable then your word on what happend will carry more weight.
I will always call my own fouls.

Andy
 
I call my fouls

I call my fouls. I do it out of habit and I usually pick up the cue ball or roll it to a clear spot. On the rare occasions when my opponent has stepped away from the table I sit the cue ball on the rail so that they will know that it is dead.

Aside from the ethics, the poster that asked if you really want your opponent playing referee all the time has an excellent point. Once I see someone fail to call their own fouls I make a point of moving to where I can see their shots. If I have to call them I have to be where I can see them. This is annoying to most people. I normally try to do just the opposite, holding still or moving out of the direct field of view.

Those that think the other player should call fouls can't call sharking if they come hang over a shot needing a very close call just like a ref would. I prefer to call my own fouls.

Hu
 
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