Ball In Hand On The Money Ball - What To Do?

hang-the-9 said:
There is no stalemate rule in 9 ball, only 8-ball. And in 8-ball it's tough to figure it out without a ref to call it unless both players are good enough to see a no-win situation. For example the 8-ball almost in the pocket with another ball right on top of it, that would cause a stalemate.

The shot as shown is not hard, just shoot the 9 though the point. It will compress and ball goes in.
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What happens here?

(9ball): two balls are locked up part way up in the tight pocket opening. They are wedged solid. The 'next ball in rotation' will not go, nor the adjoining ball, regardless of how hard hit.

Could this be a stalemate situation?

Hope so. We played it that way, and reracked.
 
There is no stalemate rule in 9 ball, only 8-ball. ...
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Nine ball has a stalemate rule. The rules of nine ball are here: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

It seems unlikely to happen, but if someone were to bet me that he could contrive a bizarre situation in which there was a stalemate at nine ball, I would not bet against him.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5​
 
Bob Jewett said:
Nine ball has a stalemate rule. The rules of nine ball are here: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

It seems unlikely to happen, but if someone were to bet me that he could contrive a bizarre situation in which there was a stalemate at nine ball, I would not bet against him.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5​
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Bob-good call


Not contrived, just very bizarre:grin:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
dr_dave said:
dr_dave said:
If anybody wants to see a close-up super-slow-motion view of this shot, see:
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This shot reminds me of other types of shots where a ball must compress the cushion to create clearance. Two such shots are demonstrated in the following video:
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What a treasure trove of in-depth information your website is, Dave! There's more useful and free knowledge at the other end of each one of your links than on some entire websites.
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Thanks PJ!

A lot of stuff quoted on my FAQ resource pages is from you, so you have helped add significant value to many of the links. Thank you! Keep up the good work with your excellent and well illustrated posts.

And good thread! I wish we had more like this. These are the types of threads I enjoy the most, with discussion of shot examples and alternative approaches.

Regards,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm pretty sure it was pocket-hooked from both corners.

pj
chgo
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If so, it can be pounded into the middle pocket. In fact, that's how I explain the shot to students: first make sure it can't be played into a corner pocket. If it's frozen "behind" the knuckle where it can't be played along the rail, shoot it into the middle pocket (shoot hard and use draw, and aim for the middle of the pocket when still in doubt).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
I'm pretty sure it was pocket-hooked from both corners.

pj
chgo
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acousticsguru:
If so, it can be pounded into the middle pocket.
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It was close, so I'm not absolutely sure it was pocket-hooked. Maybe I was wrong and that's why my shot didn't work? The photo above is of the actual game-time situation (snapped before I tried the shot) - what do you think?

EDIT: Here's the same picture with a vertical line through the 9 ball showing that its center is about 1/4" past the pocket point:

photo(2).jpg

I have to try some more of these today to see what the limits are...

pj
chgo
 
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If you have ball in hand, that means your opponent is on at least 1 foul. The obvious move is to foul yourself. Let him deal with it, he can't keep giving it back, because he will 3 foul.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It was close, so I'm not absolutely sure it was pocket-hooked. Maybe I was wrong and that's why my shot didn't work? The photo above is of the actual game-time situation (snapped before I tried the shot) - what do you think?

EDIT: Here's the same picture with a vertical line through the 9 ball showing that its center is about 1/4" past the pocket point:

View attachment 242643

I have to try some more of these today to see what the limits are...

pj
chgo
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This is the actual lay of the ball? Sorry, missed that earlier! Now, since it's not frozen, there's no use trying to "pound it" (= shoot it through the pocket knuckle). If it's not frozen, it can be shot into either the middle or the corner pocket (= physically, there's no spot on the table where one can't do one or the other - unless the pocket washer were damaged, that is, isn't level with the rail). On your pic, the knuckle looks lightly rounded as on most used tables, which means the 9 could be shot into the middle pocket at a slow to medium speed - all one needs to do is to just miss the knuckle.

(EDIT: on the EPBF's tables at the European Championships last year, this ball would have been near-impossible to pocket anywhere - the slate was cut so an object ball could virtually be hidden behind a corner pocket knuckle/washer sighting down the rail, thus shots into the middle pocket were tough if angled flatter than 45°, and near impossible below 30°. In turn, of the two safeties I proposed earlier, the corner hook would have been exceptionally easy to execute.)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Nine ball has a stalemate rule. The rules of nine ball are here: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

It seems unlikely to happen, but if someone were to bet me that he could contrive a bizarre situation in which there was a stalemate at nine ball, I would not bet against him.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Hamlet, Act I, Scene 5​
Click to expand...

But every 9 ball tournament I have seen that is not a "fun" tournament has a 3 foul loss rule, which means by the time you can call something a stalemate, someone lost on 3 fouls. And if a tournament is run by "fun" rules, I don't see anyone knowing about a stalemate rule anyway.
 
3RAILKICK said:
What happens here?

(9ball): two balls are locked up part way up in the tight pocket opening. They are wedged solid. The 'next ball in rotation' will not go, nor the adjoining ball, regardless of how hard hit.

Could this be a stalemate situation?

Hope so. We played it that way, and reracked.
Click to expand...

Bob pointed out that in WPA rules he linked, there is a stalemate rule in 9-ball, this ball wedge sounds like a situation that could be called for it.

I've seen balls stuck in the jaws like that but have not run across a place where they were stuck and could not be moved after 1-2 hits.
 
Testing the "force-through" shot

The suggestions that were posted about forcing the ball through the pocket point got me curious, so I tried the shot a couple of different ways today to see what the limits might be. Here are the results.

The point is rounded, so I measured to the center of its curve.

pj
chgo

combined.jpg
 
I've had this happen probably 8 times

Patrick Johnson said:
The suggestions that were posted about forcing the ball through the pocket point got me curious, so I tried the shot a couple of different ways today to see what the limits might be. Here are the results.

The point is rounded, so I measured to the center of its curve.

pj
chgo

View attachment 242697
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The rule of thumb is if the bottom of the ball (in picture, side closest to the cushion) is below the line of the cushion you can force it in (I would recommend making it straight into the side)...and if it's even with the cushion you can either make it in the corner, or play a safe hitting it a diamond or two down and corner-hooking your opponent. I've had this happen probably 8 times in my career.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
But every 9 ball tournament I have seen that is not a "fun" tournament has a 3 foul loss rule, which means by the time you can call something a stalemate, someone lost on 3 fouls. And if a tournament is run by "fun" rules, I don't see anyone knowing about a stalemate rule anyway.
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Besides the wedged balls -- I'd have to try a few shots before I would believe them -- here's another:

The nine is near the rail. The cue ball is half an inch away and straight out from it. Neither player is willing to thin the nine and go to the other end of the table. They keep tapping the nine to the cushion and because the cloth is funny it never actually freezes. They are good at tapping without fouling. This goes on for 10 minutes.

The WPA rules committee realized that chance of the rule every being used was small, but because the stalemate rule exists it either has to apply in nine ball or you have to provide some other rule for these unlikely situations.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
The rule of thumb is if the bottom of the ball (in picture, side closest to the cushion) is below the line of the cushion you can force it in (I would recommend making it straight into the side)...and if it's even with the cushion you can either make it in the corner, or play a safe hitting it a diamond or two down and corner-hooking your opponent. I've had this happen probably 8 times in my career.
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The rule of thumb was wrong this time, because the edge of the ball was past the line of the cushion in both positions, but one of them didn't go.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The rule of thumb was wrong this time, because the edge of the ball was past the line of the cushion in both positions, but one of them didn't go, and let you know.

pj
chgo
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I'm with CJ here, both of the ones you pictured should go (= agree with his rule of thumb). 1/8" should be plenty. I've muscled balls in that were almost impossible to tell if they were behind the knuckle, just because I doubted (gut instinct rather than eyesight) they would go in either corner. But one can't position the cue ball at much of an angle (the OB is not supposed to glance off), with CJ there, too. But I'll try them on the super-tight Dynamics (old EPBF standard) where I'm instructing tonight.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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