Ban Magic Rack for Pro Events?

CJ Wiley said:
The real issue with the magic rack is you can touch the balls with your fingers....Why do you think it's called the "magic rack"?
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I believe it's called a magic rack because it manages to freeze all the balls to one another and it's a catchy name. I'm not interested in assumed or suggested reasons on how the magic rack got its name. As for the book you suggested it's more for magic tricks than ways to "doctor" a rack.
At what point do we blame the integrity of a player instead of the "fallacies" of the equipment?

High 9 ball rack runs were around well before the magic rack was around, I think the magic rack just exploits how easily you can make balls of a 9 ball rack. So it would be a matter of the game itself being too easy and not the magic rack being a broken tool.

I have no response for the 10 ball suggetion of 6 balls being wired or near to being wired, but then again it's a question of the game not the magic rack.
 
CreeDo said:
All magic rack does is freeze the balls. You can get the exact same results with a wood triangle if you labor over it until every single ball touches. But nobody wants to do that.

People are playing up this myth that the mbr creates special breaks that don't normally happen with triangles. It's simply not true. You're just not used to seeing those "too easy" breaks because you've been settling for slightly loose racks for decades.


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With all due respect Creedo, the jury is still out on this so any statements are theory or opinion rather than fact. I've not seen Dr. Dave or anyone else provide scientific study to determine if the MR has any affect.

There are some who feel the MR goes beyond simply freezing the balls and does alter the break shot. That the balls aren't simply frozen but rather are leaning into each other, which may change the amount of stored kinetic energy over balls racked with a triangle. There is also thought that the direction of the object balls is different because all have to hop out of their holes rather than roll, and that the rack itself causes the balls to slide slightly upon impact.

There is also a belief that right after impact the balls slide slightly on the template when leaving the rack and this changes their direction. There are some that feel this is a contributor to the wing ball in the corner. Now, you will see players dial in and make the wing ball frequently with a triangle, but I've also noticed that with the MR the wing ball often seems to be dead nuts on, at many different break speeds.
 
If the professional players were in charge the magic rack would never be considered.

poolwizard said:
I believe it's called a magic rack because it manages to freeze all the balls to one another and it's a catchy name. I'm not interested in assumed or suggested reasons on how the magic rack got its name. As for the book you suggested it's more for magic tricks than ways to "doctor" a rack.
At what point do we blame the integrity of a player instead of the "fallacies" of the equipment?

High 9 ball rack runs were around well before the magic rack was around, I think the magic rack just exploits how easily you can make balls of a 9 ball rack. So it would be a matter of the game itself being too easy and not the magic rack being a broken tool.

I have no response for the 10 ball suggetion of 6 balls being wired or near to being wired, but then again it's a question of the game not the magic rack.
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You have some good points there, and I agree. If the professional players were in charge the magic rack would never be considered. That's the only pertinent point, so I'll leave it at that.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
With all due respect Creedo, the jury is still out on this so any statements are theory or opinion rather than fact. I've not seen Dr. Dave or anyone else provide scientific study to determine if the MR has any affect.
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I hear you, but I'm gonna be blunt: The "Stored kinetic energy" is made up pseudoscience that ALSO lacks any scientific proof.
And, here's the crucial detail: the main guy pushing that theory makes a DIRECT COMPETITOR to the magic rack.
He uses this "loaded ball" stuff as a selling point for his product. Which is a shame since it stands on its own as a fine product.

If Dr. Dave tests it and shows the rack does alter something important, I'll accept it. But until then I will go by experience & common sense.
Joe tucker explained way back in like... 2002? 2003? Why the wing ball is wired in 9b.
It has been common knowledge for at least a decade why and how that ball is "supposed to" go.

So why doesn't it go as reliably with a triangle, even if you sit there sweating over it for 20 minutes?
Probably because the balls aren't perfectly round, one is smaller than the others, they settle into divots in the cloth,
or your footsteps cause them to settle a little when you walk away from the rack.

If you feel those are normal and acceptible problems, and we should just deal with them and accept some randomness in the break... ok. Can't argue with that. But I will argue with made up science every time! :)


There is also thought that the direction of the object balls is different because all have to hop out of their holes rather than roll, and that the rack itself causes the balls to slide slightly upon impact.
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All balls moving at high speed slide rather than roll for several milleseconds after they are struck. They are being contacted near the equator, with no topspin, and just like a center-ball hit with the cue, they slide for a ways before they pick up enough friction to start rolling.


There is also a belief that right after impact the balls slide slightly on the template when leaving the rack and this changes their direction.
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This is a bit of a stretch. At 3 mph? Sure, it can make a ball roll off. At 15 or 20 mph? Come on now. A rack is paper thin and a single ball is like 40-50 times its weight.
 
satman said:
I'm not sure how old you are, or how long you have been around the Pro pool players. And I don't mean to generalize, because there are some really good people out there. But, Pro pool players have always been notorious for looking for an edge to get the money. Maybe part of that is caused by living on the road, and playing tournies that barely pay enough to eat and get to the next stop. But, it there is an edge, whether it's pattern racking, soft breaking, or slug racking when you rack for the other guy, a lot of people have no problem with it. They say, "everyone else is doing it, and if you ain't, you're a sap and don't wanna win". Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people with integrity, who have tried to set a good example and do good things for pool. But, in the long run, there will have to be something done to legitimize the break and especially the racking.
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Well,then that just goes back to what I said earlier,that it goes a long way in explaining the state of men's pro pool in the U.S. today,regarding sponsors and media (tv) coverage.
 
Yes

leto1776 said:
Well,then that just goes back to what I said earlier,that it goes a long way in explaining the state of men's pro pool in the U.S. today,regarding sponsors and media (tv) coverage.
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It does. Several Pro tours started, but have been unable to sustain a life.
 
CreeDo said:
I hear you, but I'm gonna be blunt: The "Stored kinetic energy" is made up pseudoscience that ALSO lacks any scientific proof.
And, here's the crucial detail: the main guy pushing that theory makes a DIRECT COMPETITOR to the magic rack.
He uses this "loaded ball" stuff as a selling point for his product. Which is a shame since it stands on its own as a fine product.

If Dr. Dave tests it and shows the rack does alter something important, I'll accept it. But until then I will go by experience & common sense.
Joe tucker explained way back in like... 2002? 2003? Why the wing ball is wired in 9b.
It has been common knowledge for at least a decade why and how that ball is "supposed to" go.

So why doesn't it go as reliably with a triangle, even if you sit there sweating over it for 20 minutes?
Probably because the balls aren't perfectly round, one is smaller than the others, they settle into divots in the cloth,
or your footsteps cause them to settle a little when you walk away from the rack.

If you feel those are normal and acceptible problems, and we should just deal with them and accept some randomness in the break... ok. Can't argue with that. But I will argue with made up science every time! :)




All balls moving at high speed slide rather than roll for several milleseconds after they are struck. They are being contacted near the equator, with no topspin, and just like a center-ball hit with the cue, they slide for a ways before they pick up enough friction to start rolling.




This is a bit of a stretch. At 3 mph? Sure, it can make a ball roll off. At 15 or 20 mph? Come on now. A rack is paper thin and a single ball is like 40-50 times its weight.
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Couple of points.... I don't go into the physics of the templates anywhere on Outsville.Com or in my marketing materials... I only talk about it in this "discussion" forum....

I have nothing but respect for Mark Griffin and I don't in any way want to try and market my product simply on bashing their product....

Mark and I have talked several times and I will never engage in a smear campaign but I will discuss things on AZ simply because this is a small cross section of the industry and the waves it creates overall are small....

Worn out cloth and balls... That's the arena where the Accu-Rack System shines... We used the racks in Nashville in January and they worked as advertised......

Now we get to a new point where we discuss ways to change the rack to make the game less of a shoot out... The Accu-Rack System has not been tested with the 9 on the spot, (That may change in December of this year depending on several things) And I point out that there are minimal collisions off my template causing illegal breaks....

It's not pseudoscience or made up science... It's called general physics....

Anyone that has had a physics class knows what force vectors are... They are actually studied in depth in statics and dynamics courses at universities around the globe.....

Having the 9ball with an equator below the equators of the surrounding balls vs above the equators changes the force vectors of the break... This is physics at work... it's not made up... it's not pseudoscience... it's not witchcraft... If you want to argue I will gladly argue back...

Just be very careful on what you call made up because experience, common sense and common knowledge said the earth was flat at one point in time......

Chris
 
The promoter's job is to create a suitable environment

The Renfro said:
Couple of points.... I don't go into the physics of the templates anywhere on Outsville.Com or in my marketing materials... I only talk about it in this "discussion" forum....

I have nothing but respect for Mark Griffin and I don't in any way want to try and market my product simply on bashing their product....

Mark and I have talked several times and I will never engage in a smear campaign but I will discuss things on AZ simply because this is a small cross section of the industry and the waves it creates overall are small....

Worn out cloth and balls... That's the arena where the Accu-Rack System shines... We used the racks in Nashville in January and they worked as advertised......

Now we get to a new point where we discuss ways to change the rack to make the game less of a shoot out... The Accu-Rack System has not been tested with the 9 on the spot, (That may change in December of this year depending on several things) And I point out that there are minimal collisions off my template causing illegal breaks....

It's not pseudoscience or made up science... It's called general physics....

Anyone that has had a physics class knows what force vectors are... They are actually studied in depth in statics and dynamics courses at universities around the globe.....

Having the 9ball with an equator below the equators of the surrounding balls vs above the equators changes the force vectors of the break... This is physics at work... it's not made up... it's not pseudoscience... it's not witchcraft... If you want to argue I will gladly argue back...

Just be very careful on what you call made up because experience, common sense and common knowledge said the earth was flat at one point in time......

Chris
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Yes, and players can use this "force vector flaw" to a distinct advantage, if we choose to. As martial arts has taught, choose only to attack if attacked first.

I still think it's easy to get refs for all matches in Pro tournaments to rack the balls. It was done routinely in the 90s and every match I played on ESPN had a Referee racking.
Having two professionals racking/reffing is like two boxers in the ring reffing themselves. It's not the players fault if they head butt and throw some elbows, they're trying to win. In boxing the participants don't hire the referee, why should they in pool?

The promoter's job is to create a suitable/fair/competitive environment... We can't blame them for using any knowledge they have to get an edge, it shouldn't even be an option. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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How about using the Magic Rack, simply because of its consistency, and cue ball on the head spot? How does that affect balls being "wired?"
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, and players can use this "force vector flaw" to a distinct advantage, if we choose to. As martial arts has taught, choose only to attack if attacked first.

I still think it's easy to get refs for all matches in Pro tournaments to rack the balls. It was done routinely in the 90s and every match I played on ESPN had a Referee racking.
Having two professionals racking/reffing is like two boxers in the ring reffing themselves. It's not the players fault if they head butt and throw some elbows, they're trying to win. In boxing the participants don't hire the referee, why should they in pool?

The promoter's job is to create a suitable/fair/competitive environment... We can't blame them for using any knowledge they have to get an edge, it shouldn't even be an option. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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Now all we have to do is find eight to ten people willing to donate twelve to fourteen hours a day for a week or so to rack pool balls for professionals because they can't not screw with the rack.

Thats the solution.
 
It follows that the one ball being on both the spot and on the Magic Rack that it will be higher than the other balls save the nine ball?

What is the consequence?
 
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C.J., So you propose referees to oversee and take over the racking and breaking debacle? You think that taking the problem away from the players and giving it to a referee is a fix? I think this is called "passing the buck". This is not the 90's. Welcome to 2013.

Good luck instituting referees for every pool match.
 
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JCIN said:
Now all we have to do is find eight to ten people willing to donate twelve to fourteen hours a day for a week or so to rack pool balls for professionals because they can't not screw with the rack.

Thats the solution.
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It's impossible to break up the day into smaller shifts? Racking on new tables with a decent rack isn't exactly rocket science and plenty of people would love to feel like they are part of the action by racking for the pros.

Just think how many people enter major tournaments just for the chance to play their favorite pro. I bet those same people wouldn't mind racking for them.

Can anyone really say for 100% sure it would work or not? Of course not but it might be worth a try.
 
Its not the rack thats the problem. Its the person that is racking. The pattern racking that is the problem. Have a neutral racker racking the balls and this will take care of all the racking problems and make the game fair for everyone.
 
billiardguy87 said:
Its not the rack thats the problem. Its the person that is racking. The pattern racking that is the problem. Have a neutral racker racking the balls and this will take care of all the racking problems and make the game fair for everyone.
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Unless the "neutral" racker is on the take for one of the players.Michaela Tabb

I vote for Michaela Tabb to rack.
 
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Rackers

Sorry, but having volunteer Rackers is not an answer.

This will bring as many problems as you are trying to resolve.

Mark Griffin
 
billiardguy87 said:
just curious why you think having a neutral racker is not the answer and if it is not the answer what is the answer in your opinion.
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If it is the answer you still have to find those neutral rackers.

Volunteers wont do it. They will do it till it gets old or the first time the player they have idolized since they were a kid eye fvcks them because he didnt make a ball on the break.

So if volunteers are not the answer you have to pay people. So do you up the entry to pay for that or lower the pay out ?

Edit to add: I can just imagine the players facebook postings about volunteer rackers after they lose a match. The idea sounds good as long you don't have much experience around pro pool events.
 
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It's the solution, there's no doubt in my mind.

billiardguy87 said:
just curious why you think having a neutral racker is not the answer and if it is not the answer what is the answer in your opinion.
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I've been to many tournaments and seen countless matches with a Ref racking and not one problem....at the Dallas Open we had Refs racking on every table, at the US OPEN they used to have Refs racking....again, not one problem. I can't even imagine having a problem unless a Ref was selected that didn't know how to rack, and of course that would fall under "pre tournament training". It's the solution, there's no doubt in my mind.

When you have a Ref racking you don't even have to check the rack, you just break them, as a matter of fact no one should be allowed to check the rack.....why would you need to? No one is going to cheat a player on the rack and if a player believes this, give them a "mulligan" once a match. ;)

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CJ Wiley said:
I've been to many tournaments and seen countless matches with a Ref racking and not one problem....at the Dallas Open we had Refs racking on every table, at the US OPEN they used to have Refs racking....again, not one problem. I can't even imagine having a problem unless a Ref was selected that didn't know how to rack, and of course that would fall under "pre tournament training". It's the solution, there's no doubt in my mind.

When you have a Ref racking you don't even have to check the rack, you just break them, as a matter of fact no one should be allowed to check the rack.....why would you need to? No one is going to cheat a player on the rack and if a player believes this, give them a "mulligan" once a match. ;)
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A look into that reality.......

"Earl...I know its hill-hill but Shane is going to take his mulligan now because he didnt like the way that rack broke."

At which point Earl calmly impales the referee on his 70 inch lance of justice and walks out.

I do agree if a ref racks the players should have to break it without looking at it. That is very doable in the final portion of events say the last eight. Again though.....as many people hating on the magic rack will hate on the refs.
 
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