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Roach said:
And a lot of people on this board also need a lesson in forum etiquette. There are "real" people here posting under their own names and not a troll identity. Both sides have suffered because of existing conditions which went beyond their control.
There ain't nothing about this whole dilemma which feels good, but if the parties involved strive to make the wrong right, then the injured parties can move on.
JAM
JAM said:
Jennie, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was up late last night speaking with Brady regarding this ordeal. Brady wants this overwith just as much as Danny does. This situation is not good for Danny, Brady, or pool. Roach, you have a lot of criticism, yet the only solution you have brought forward is for Danny to stay angry and flip off the establishment. I fail to see what that will solve. I hope to have an update for you very soon regarding the settlement of this issue. Danny, you know I will do everything it takes to get you back to playing at the level where you belong, even if it means sponsoring you in the Tournaments to get the ball rolling. I wish you the best, and hope all is going well for you back in Springfield.
Blackjack said:
Blackjack,
In your conversations with the UPA reps, has the idea of the UPA paying the players and collecting the funds from Brady and any other debtors, came up? It's my contention that by "sanctioning" the event, they have this responsibility! Even the old PBA under the Mackey regime did this for me as I mentioned in another thread. IMHO, this would have given the UPA some sorely needed credibility!
just more hot air!
Sherm
D
Danny Harriman
Guest
To Brknrn
I'd like to thank you for your intuitive response you know exactly how I feel in this matter and are truly on the ball. Maybe if you attend the Derby City Classic I will see you feel free to contact me at my E-Mail address, and once again thanks for your post it was 'right on the money.'
Sincerely, Danny
(trebuenonsond@yahoo.com)
I'd like to thank you for your intuitive response you know exactly how I feel in this matter and are truly on the ball. Maybe if you attend the Derby City Classic I will see you feel free to contact me at my E-Mail address, and once again thanks for your post it was 'right on the money.'
Sincerely, Danny
(trebuenonsond@yahoo.com)
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RichardCranium said:
RichardCranium, that particular year was truly a nightmare that got worse. Mother Nature was not kind to pool.
Barry Berhman's first Mid-Atlantic 9-Ball Championship got hammered for the reasons previously stated.
The Trump Marina 10-Ball Challenge in Atlantic City was one of the worst snow storms I had ever driven in. I think I was the last car that made it into Atlantic City. Then they shut down all roads going in and out. The tournament was delayed for a day to allow players to make it in, but there were not too many paying spectators who came to see Danny Hewitt beat Hall of Famer Jim Rempe in the finals.
The Big Apple 9-Ball Tournament held at Master's in NYC suffered a power outage, thanks to a complete blackout in the entire Northeast corridor on the eve of the tournament. No planes were allowed in or out, and driving there, I began to get a little nervous when all cars were LEAVING New York, and I was one of the only ones on the road ARRIVING in New York. Very unsettling, but I've got to hand it to the spirit of those New Yorkers. The festivities went full speed ahead and managed to be a great event.
Then there was the Capital City Classic in Philadelphia. There was a major rain storm which lasted many days. The main arteries were flooded, and in my own back yard, a large mature tree came right out of the ground and fell on my house on the day of departure. The venue was spectacular, very ritzy, but, again, there wasn't much in the way of paying spectators.
Then Hurricane Isabel decides to arrive on the shores of the Chesapeake Beach smack in the middle of the 2003 U.S. Open.
In 2003, pool took a beating from Mother Nature! (LOL)
RichardCranium said:
In the instance of the Inaugural Mid-Atlantic 9-Ball Championships, I believe this tournament was created because of the promoter's very deep passion for the sport. He tried to make it happen and has suffered personally and financially because of his efforts. Sometimes a person can be in a hole up to their neck and not have very much wiggle room. In life, some people will elect to file bankruptcy, an easy way out in some instances, and then there are others who stay the course and get themselves out of the hole. It takes time for the latter.
RichardCranium said:
I, too, very much admire Blackjack's efforts for the betterment of the sport. Considering his knowledge of the history of men's professional pool, to include the mistakes made in the past pertaining to GREED, I hope he will keep an open mind and apply his expertise when the opportunities avail themselves.
RichardCranium said:
I remember reading a while back that the NAOT, the Hilton-sponsored tour, is going to host an event in Arizona, but I can't remember the when or where.
RichardCranium said:
Thanks for your kind words. I'm actually feeling kind of lucky to read the wonderful posts from all of the members of the AzBilliards Discussion Forum. It's a great way to stay connected and read about insights from others around the world.
JAM
Gabber
Banned
the problem
BlackJack, I admire what you are trying to do but I think you are missing the point.
Danny,s patientce astounds me. I get the feeling from his posts that this approach is a last resort to get his money!
I think this whole situation could have been avoided if Brady had just been up front with danny and entered into a meaningful dialogue.
You inadvertently brought up Mika. I,m sure the guys are now asking themselves, how long is this list? Who still hasnt been paid? Have they heard ANYTHING from B?
Questions?
Gabber
BlackJack, I admire what you are trying to do but I think you are missing the point.
Danny,s patientce astounds me. I get the feeling from his posts that this approach is a last resort to get his money!
I think this whole situation could have been avoided if Brady had just been up front with danny and entered into a meaningful dialogue.
You inadvertently brought up Mika. I,m sure the guys are now asking themselves, how long is this list? Who still hasnt been paid? Have they heard ANYTHING from B?
Questions?
Gabber
Roach said:
In my mind that is what you are asking Danny to do. That can only aggravate the situation and cause a breakdown in communication and cooperation. That is exactly what has happened between Danny Harriman and Brady, and Danny Harriman and the UPA. Why continue that? It doesn't solve anything. It breeds bitterness. The posts have put the pressure on Brady to pay Danny, and Brady has been cooperative. Brady could have took the position to force Danny to bring him to court, yet Brady has stood up in public and admitted his debt publicly and has promised to pay. Danny is not the only player that needs to be paid, and Brady is also making arrangements to make good on those debts as well. Brady cannot pay unless he has the money on hand to send out. You can comment on this subject all you like in this forum, but without a clear understanding of all of the facts combined with your blatant bias towards Danny, you lose the objectivity required to see past the frustration. This situation will not be solved by tossing our anger at each other. It will be solved by all parties keeping an open line of communication.
In response to Gabber, I will not publicly discuss the conversation that I had with Mika at his request. All I will say is that he still has not been paid and he is not happy about it at all - and he shouldn't be. I offered to help Mika, and should he accept my assistance, he knows how to get in touch with me. I'm not holding my breath waiting for him to call me. It should also be noted that the 2001 US Open has nothing to do whatsoever with the UPA. Many questions have come up regarding why the UPA did not pay Danny and the other players. The UPA is not a large organization that has all this money on hand. The UPA is a non-profit entity. The UPA has changed its sanctioning guidelines and they are posted at their website. I suggest that anyone that has any questions regarding UPA sanctioning guidleines to contact Frank Alvarez or Martin Rimlinger. They can best answer your questions regarding UPA administrative issues. They can also explain their bylaws and the UPA response to this issue, which was made in accordance with those bylaws.
Gabber
Banned
Blackjack said:
I dont think danny has a problem with B, but he has a problem with the UPA!
they should have paid danny and then sought recompence from B.
If you play a tournament in good faith, which is sanctioned by the UPA[ the PLAYERS union, ], I think you have the right to the money you have won.
I can understand why Danny is pissed.
Surely the FIRST aim of a players union is to ensure the players get their money?
It seems other players have still not got their money and the UPA hasnt done a G-dam thing about it.
Thats the problem.
G
G
Why were these players (Danny and Mika and ???) not paid in the first place??? BlackJack, Brady or anyone else have any answers?
Danny did the right thing for himself and for pool in general by posting his problems here as a last resort. Why let the crooks keep getting away with the crime, lets get them back to being honest!
Danny did the right thing for himself and for pool in general by posting his problems here as a last resort. Why let the crooks keep getting away with the crime, lets get them back to being honest!
JAM said:
Snow in January. Does it ever snow in January in Virginia? The Super Bowl...guess that was a shocker that it was the same weekend. 600 million people know when the Super Bowl is but not Brady? Christmas time...another date that must've sneaked past Brady. And vendors that refused to pay? Uhhh, Brady here is a business tip for you. MAKE THEM POST. All this happened in 2003 and Danny still has to go to great lengths over a lousy $1850 dollars?? If Brady would've saved $2.00 a day since then he could've paid Danny by now. We are not talking a lot money here. Everyone always acts the same when they owe someone. Lots of poor excuses for not paying what they owe.
watchez
Jam likes to explain away accoutability rather than defend it.
Almost makes it ok to not pay.
Kind of like an apology. When most people apologize they mean they won't do it again unless they have to. They simply say they are sorry to get you to shut up rather than to make things right.
Jam likes to explain away accoutability rather than defend it.
Almost makes it ok to not pay.
Kind of like an apology. When most people apologize they mean they won't do it again unless they have to. They simply say they are sorry to get you to shut up rather than to make things right.
Gabber said:
The UPA is not a players union. The UPA represented Danny Harriman who was not a member of their tour. Because Danny was not a member of their tour he was asked to pay his membership dues. Danny refused in lieu of the unpaid monies, therefore a standoff ensued, and here we are. Brady Behrman is not a crook, he is a promoter that had an event scheduled during a horrible storm. Fans did not support the event (which is nothing new) and Brady took a big loss on the entire endeavor. The UPA has since changed its sanctioning guidelines to ensure that the money is posted upfront. This does not guarantee that people wioll show up, nor does it guarantee that they will spend money at these events to please the vendors. The UPA is a non-profit entity and holds no cash and is unable to pay a player in a situation such as this. (haven't I said this already?). The UPA did everything in their power to assist Danny (a non-UPA member), but due to the emotionally charged situation, communication broke down between Danny and the UPA. Brady has sent off a payment for Danny to the UPA offices. Danny should have that payment by early next week. Brady will then pay off the balance of what is owed to Danny Harriman. In the meantime I will be working towards a solution to get Danny back to the top level of the game of pool where he belongs.
Of the other players that are owed money, I have only spoken with Mika Immonen, and his situation has nothing to do with the UPA as they did not sanction the 2001 US Open. The players have other means that they can take to get the monies paid to them. A players union does not exist within the UPA. Union representation costs money, and for now, the fan support and industry support is not there for the players like it should be. I have talked to many of the players in Jacksonville and you would be surprised at the number of players that have little or no sponsorship. An average tournament will cost you $1500 out of pocket expenses and if you barely finish in the money you get your entry fee back (app.$300). This is why players are leaving the tour.
As fans we need to support not just the players, but the vendors and TD's as well. When a vendor cannot recover the amount for booth space, something is wrong. All of these issues caused this situation 2 years ago, and today not much has changed. All of us need to take a long hard look at how we view this game and make a decision as to whether we want to support it or not. If we support it, then we can build the tour into something we can be proud of. If we continue to go on the current path with the same attitudes, we'll continue to be on the outside looking in.
Blackjack said:
You are absolutely right. So, he set up a format that required fan support to make the event successful?
That makes me question his intelligence, the UPA's intelligence for sanctioning it and the player's intelligence for trying it.
What this means is the Super Bowl and the weather had little to do with it.
It was a bad plan for the get go.
This makes no sense...
Are we talking aobut professional men's billiards in the 21st Century?
What a surprise...
Hi Danny.
Have you called Johnny to ask how he got paid?
Did he get paid because he was a UPA Member?
If you are not a UPA member, and you must have paid your entry fee, why is YOUR money being sent to the UPA?
Wasn't it also mentioned somewhere in this thread that the UPA would take 100.00 out of this money?
I feel sorry for you, but this has been going on for a long time. The only answer I can come up with is the same old thing - for whatever the reasons, there is still no real money in tournaments. Therefore, it is difficult to blame anyone since we all no this to be a fact for decades.
PBTA, Camel tour, UPA - When I hear that this has all worked out then I might believe things are getting better. Until then, I will consider this typical of men's (so called) professional billiards.
My heart goes out to all...
And we must be accountable to our hearts...
Are we talking aobut professional men's billiards in the 21st Century?
What a surprise...
Hi Danny.
Have you called Johnny to ask how he got paid?
Did he get paid because he was a UPA Member?
If you are not a UPA member, and you must have paid your entry fee, why is YOUR money being sent to the UPA?
Wasn't it also mentioned somewhere in this thread that the UPA would take 100.00 out of this money?
I feel sorry for you, but this has been going on for a long time. The only answer I can come up with is the same old thing - for whatever the reasons, there is still no real money in tournaments. Therefore, it is difficult to blame anyone since we all no this to be a fact for decades.
PBTA, Camel tour, UPA - When I hear that this has all worked out then I might believe things are getting better. Until then, I will consider this typical of men's (so called) professional billiards.
My heart goes out to all...
And we must be accountable to our hearts...
You are absolutely right. So, he set up a format that required fan support to make the event successful?
That makes me question his intelligence, the UPA's intelligence for sanctioning it and the player's intelligence for trying it.
Believe it or not, this is the way most events are set up. It's part of the risk. It is very difficult to come up with the added money at any tournament because the industry has short arms and deep pockets. Ask some of the other TD's at this site... they are coming up short and losing money as well - pretty regularly.
What this means is the Super Bowl and the weather had little to do with it.
It was a bad plan for the get go.
The weather just added to the problems that have always existed. I've attended many events over the years that have been held in conjunction with Super Bowl weekend, and it usually never makes a difference. Ask any bookie. The problem is that all these TD's are putting on events and they are not making money - they are losing money. It could be a problem that exists within our fan base, or it could be a major marketing flaw. Boycotting events solves nothing for the players. The players need our support, and so do the tours. If all of these people that support Danny in this issue got together to sponsor him in the next event (entry/hotel/travel/etc) they would understand what I mean by taking this energy and directing it positively. What usually happens though is when players ask for money or sponsorship, everything gets real silent real quick (I can hear the crickets now). Well the same thing happens to TD's when they try to work up the added money for these events. Everybody recognizes that there is a problem, yet very few are willing to do anything to change it.
That makes me question his intelligence, the UPA's intelligence for sanctioning it and the player's intelligence for trying it.
Believe it or not, this is the way most events are set up. It's part of the risk. It is very difficult to come up with the added money at any tournament because the industry has short arms and deep pockets. Ask some of the other TD's at this site... they are coming up short and losing money as well - pretty regularly.
What this means is the Super Bowl and the weather had little to do with it.
It was a bad plan for the get go.
The weather just added to the problems that have always existed. I've attended many events over the years that have been held in conjunction with Super Bowl weekend, and it usually never makes a difference. Ask any bookie. The problem is that all these TD's are putting on events and they are not making money - they are losing money. It could be a problem that exists within our fan base, or it could be a major marketing flaw. Boycotting events solves nothing for the players. The players need our support, and so do the tours. If all of these people that support Danny in this issue got together to sponsor him in the next event (entry/hotel/travel/etc) they would understand what I mean by taking this energy and directing it positively. What usually happens though is when players ask for money or sponsorship, everything gets real silent real quick (I can hear the crickets now). Well the same thing happens to TD's when they try to work up the added money for these events. Everybody recognizes that there is a problem, yet very few are willing to do anything to change it.
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