(Banging my head) Danny Harriman

[JAM]

You are absolutely right. So, he set up a format that required fan support to make the event successful?

That makes me question his intelligence, the UPA's intelligence for sanctioning it and the player's intelligence for trying it.

Believe it or not, this is the way most events are set up. It's part of the risk. It is very difficult to come up with the added money at any tournament because the industry has short arms and deep pockets. Ask some of the other TD's at this site... they are coming up short and losing money as well - pretty regularly.

Blackjack, I admire your willingness to provide counsel to the various parties relating to the topic of this thread.

However, currently on this Discussion Forum, there are a few posters who continue to bombard constructive colloquys between interested parties with their bias and intentionally mean-spirited posts, some which have absolutely no merit whatsoever.

It does not matter what logical retort you may provide, Blackjack, because in response there will always be a crackpot and his troll-identified friend tag-teaming and feeding the flame for their own personal pleasure. I believe they actually get high on it.

In the instance of this thread, there are people attempting to work together for one common goal. This is a good thing.

If you continue to engage in a back-and-forth, Blackjack, it only turns this thread into crap because of a small minority. Capiche? I think you do.

JAM

 

[ScottR]

In the instance of this thread, there are people attempting to work together for one common goal. This is a good thing.

If you continue to engage in a back-and-forth, Blackjack, it only turns this thread into crap because of a small minority. Capiche? I think you do.

JAM

A little silent spray of Raid is called for to quell the bug problem.
Scott

 

[chefjeff]

You are absolutely right. So, he set up a format that required fan support to make the event successful?

That makes me question his intelligence, the UPA's intelligence for sanctioning it and the player's intelligence for trying it.

(snip).

Ah...roach...just where might the money come from if not from the fans? From god or the pool fairy? Sponsors?...they get their money from the fans, too. Every sporting event I know of gets its money from the fans.

If you've got another place where it comes from, please share with us.

Jeff Livingston

 

[DaveK]

Ah...roach...just where might the money come from if not from the fans? From god or the pool fairy? Sponsors?...they get their money from the fans, too. Every sporting event I know of gets its money from the fans.

If you've got another place where it comes from, please share with us.

Jeff Livingston

First and FOREMOST ... I am not roach, and I don't play one on TV either ! But, in pool, don't the players entry fees often make up a significant percentage of the payout fund ? Otherwise, I agree that sports funding ultimately comes from fans ... and in some instances the taxpayers.

Dave

 

[JustPlay]

First and FOREMOST ... I am not roach, and I don't play one on TV either ! But, in pool, don't the players entry fees often make up a significant percentage of the payout fund ? Otherwise, I agree that sports funding ultimately comes from fans ... and in some instances the taxpayers.

Dave

It is funny how Johnny Archer got paid as did few others but not Harriman as Banker Burt pointed out.

Shouldn't the Berhman's know before the start of the tournament if all of the players cashing are going to get paid or do they just pull names from a hat at the end of the tournament to see who doesn't get paid? Shouldn't this be disscussed at the players meetings? Also, all the players know that the house takes its percentage of the entry fees from the players..

DaveK, you are correct the players entries fees make up the majority of the prize funds (at least you would think so) as well as the "added" monies. Fan support makes 0 % to the players prize funds. Those funds only goto the house not the players...I say up the US Opens entry fees to $1000, which will increase the players prize pool and the players shouldn't have to worry about getting paid.....

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

It is funny how Johnny Archer got paid as did few others but not Harriman as Banker Burt pointed out.

Shouldn't the Berhman's know before the start of the tournament if all of the players cashing are going to get paid or do they just pull names from a hat at the end of the tournament to see who doesn't get paid? Shouldn't this be disscussed at the players meetings? Also, all the players know that the house takes its percentage of the entry fees from the players..

DaveK, you are correct the players entries fees make up the majority of the prize funds (at least you would think so) as well as the "added" monies. Fan support makes 0 % to the players prize funds. Those funds only goto the house not the players...I say up the US Opens entry fees to $1000, which will increase the players prize pool and the players shouldn't have to worry about getting paid.....

??? You think increasing the prize fund is suddenly going to eliminate the problems? Not only would participation dwindle to zilch but the problems go above and beyond mere entry-fees. Having seen what goes on in the production of an event, I can assure you, a lot of money is spent on miscellaneous things. I'm not defending what happened at the US Open. All I'm saying is, it's not that simple. Many of these miscellanous expenses can be unpredictable. In order to have an event like this, you pretty much have to assume a loss and that's simply not good business sense. Anyone who is aware of a guaranteed loss would never host a tournament and anyone who thinks they can avoid it will simply replicate what happened at the Open.

On top of all that, the only way to attract players with an increased entry fee is to increase the added amount which brings you right back to the problems you had before. How are you going to get people to pay a grand unless you're adding 100k? In professional pool, $300-500 seems to be magic number. Anything more or less and you're guaranteed to affect turn-out.

 

[DaveK]

DaveK, you are correct the players entries fees make up the majority of the prize funds (at least you would think so) as well as the "added" monies. Fan support makes 0 % to the players prize funds. Those funds only goto the house not the players...I say up the US Opens entry fees to $1000, which will increase the players prize pool and the players shouldn't have to worry about getting paid.....

I just looked at the NY 9Ball Challenge tournament listed on the main AZ page. It has an entry fee of $250 with $15,000 added. If they get 128 players the entry fees would total $32,000, over twice the added money amount. This seems like a typical larger tournament, smaller tournaments are worse (entry fee >> added moneys). BUT, the way I understood Jeffs comment, the added money ultimately comes from the pool fans. The sponsor who provides the added money is most likely to take the money from their advertising account, which of course is funded by their profits on sales of products or services to the pool player market (read 'fan').

I also believe that increasing the entry fee is a bad idea. The goal should be to increase the added moneys to the point where the entry fees are insignificant. I believe there is a token entry fee to play in a PGA tour event. These moneys are very trivial wrt the overall budget of the event. They do however have a 'qualifying' system whereby not any Tom, Dick, or Harry can enter a PGA event, unlike pool where anyone with $250 (?) can enter the US Open.

Dave

 

[JustPlay]

I just looked at the NY 9Ball Challenge tournament listed on the main AZ page. It has an entry fee of $250 with $15,000 added. If they get 128 players the entry fees would total $32,000, over twice the added money amount. This seems like a typical larger tournament, smaller tournaments are worse (entry fee >> added moneys). BUT, the way I understood Jeffs comment, the added money ultimately comes from the pool fans. The sponsor who provides the added money is most likely to take the money from their advertising account, which of course is funded by their profits on sales of products or services to the pool player market (read 'fan').

I also believe that increasing the entry fee is a bad idea. The goal should be to increase the added moneys to the point where the entry fees are insignificant. I believe there is a token entry fee to play in a PGA tour event. These moneys are very trivial wrt the overall budget of the event. They do however have a 'qualifying' system whereby not any Tom, Dick, or Harry can enter a PGA event, unlike pool where anyone with $250 (?) can enter the US Open.

Dave

Pool fans are unpredictable in the way of showing up and paying to pool players. Most of the time, little turnout in the way of fans. So when someone tries to explain that their funds for watching the tournament goes to the players prize funds, I just do not buy into that. Just because of the fact that no large amount of tickets are sold in advanced to really make a difference in the players prize funds.

Also, I would still like to know how Berhmans seem not to know in advance who will get paid and who doesn't.

Pool after its up and downs of getting sponsors will not get any significant amount of "added" monies to really make a difference in Mens Professional pool here in the US, that is why, I proposed to raise the entry fees so the players will be getting most of the players prize funds from the players themselves. Poker prize funds are 100% from the players and they turn out in droves (which still amazes me) and the house takes its rake (or percentage if someone reading this didn't know what "rake" ment). Tournaments like the US Open should take this into consideration. That would take some of the pressure off the Berhmans and other tournament promoters as well. Professional pool cannot rely upon the general public and sponsors (who have taken no interest in pro pool) to save them. They should start to rely on themselves, like professional poker players do.

 

[Danny Harriman]

Wrong Brady

Hello Brady,
I do hope that yu read this so that we may go back to what literally went down, I finished 7th place and the last day of the event way before Young Wha was playing Efren in the finals I asked in a nice manner about getting paid. So you told me that there would be a party that evening at Q-Master's and that you would be there and I would receive my $, this was not two days after the event as you stated in your last post. I went to the party and there was no party and no Brady either, I then proceeded to ask the gentleman at the counter if he would be kind enough to call you, I did not mention to anyone that I was owed $ out of respect for you. I did get in touch with you on the phone that night and you said you could not make it to the pool room, I explained that I was driving out in the morning and heading back to MO, to which you replied "well then call me before you leave and I will meet you for breakfast and pay you then."
You know the weather at the event was not really any issue as to why certain players did not get paid that's what I call a 'copout', I just wish for once when people make mistakes and get in over there heads that they would not try to candycoat the situation and make it look like it was not there fault. Brady I must say that your Dad is better at that than you are.
Well that morning THE DAY AFTER THE TOURNAMENT HAD ENDED I called you and you said "I'm two hours away from you why don't you give me your address and I will send you the $ in the mail, I'll never forget because you also said that if in couple of weeks I had not got it (the $) in the mail then to make sure that I got back in touch with you. I called you many times and was as nice as I could be, after 4 or five months I turned the situation over to my father who knows more about these matters than myself, finally after my Dad staying on the situation your phone was out of order.
That IS my side of the story and I agree that by goin' public on this forum it did shed some light on this dark situation for pool.
Thanks for reading (Springfield Danny)

 

[Hooked]

If you give me half the cash, I'll gladly get your money back

Out west, we do things the old fashioned way... Pay me my money or sleep with one eye open... Fear motivates people in ways no other means can...

If they insist on screwing you once, you need to screw them twice. Once to get even and once more for punitive purposes.


If all else fails, you have two options. Let it go or "handle" it.

I don't like sounding that way but it is the core of human nature and is what makes societies function. As Americans, we are raised to think otherwise which makes us weak. We are always told to never deal with problems ourselves. We are told to get police, lawers, or any authority to mediate our problems. While this does work for most people, there are always people who it does not work on and we need the skills to deal with them, as well.

It sounds like this fellow is going to need some real arm twisting to do the right thing. Damn, I HATE people like that. BE A REAL MAN AND PAY WHAT YOU OWE.

 

[DaveK]

Out west, we do things the old fashioned way... Pay me my money or sleep with one eye open... Fear motivates people in ways no other means can...

If they insist on screwing you once, you need to screw them twice. Once to get even and once more for punitive purposes.

Arnie ? Is that you ?

Dave, in a part of 'the west' where law and order still prevail, thankfully !

 

[DaveK]

Pool fans are unpredictable in the way of showing up and paying to pool players. Most of the time, little turnout in the way of fans. So when someone tries to explain that their funds for watching the tournament goes to the players prize funds, I just do not buy into that. Just because of the fact that no large amount of tickets are sold in advanced to really make a difference in the players prize funds.

What I posted was that 'added money' comes from sponsors advertising budgets, which come from the sponsors profits, which come from their customers, who I am assuming are pool fans. I believe this was fundamentaly the argument put forward by Jeff.

I agree that the 'gate' at pool tournaments is extremely trivial, but again, I did not say anything about the paid attendance (gate), only the nebulous 'fan'. As an example, there is a Joss tour. Joss sponsors these events, and their benefit is advertising/promotion leading to brand recognition which leads to the sales of their cues. Their sales are to a lot of people who do not attend the Joss Tour events, but nonetheless contribute to the Tour funding by buying Joss cues.

Dave

 

[cardiac kid]

I have lots of respect for Danny and his game. However, one question. If a golf promoter runs short on cash and can not pay someone, who would he NOT pay? Tiger, Phil, Vijay, Davis, etc. I would guess they would not pay someone way down the list of THEIR preceived importance. Not paying Johnny Archer would bring the worst possible publicity. Sorry Danny but you're just not important enough to the PROMOTERS yet. Whats the worst that can happen to them? Threads like this have been on AZ for three years. All the major (and minor) players still go to the US Open. So do the spectators. If Archer, Strickland, Reyes, et al decided not to attend, Barry (and Brady) would jump through hoops to get them what they want. Is this reasonable? It sure isn't fair.

 

[frankncali]

I have lots of respect for Danny and his game. However, one question. If a golf promoter runs short on cash and can not pay someone, who would he NOT pay? Tiger, Phil, Vijay, Davis, etc. I would guess they would not pay someone way down the list of THEIR preceived importance. Not paying Johnny Archer would bring the worst possible publicity. Sorry Danny but you're just not important enough to the PROMOTERS yet. Whats the worst that can happen to them? Threads like this have been on AZ for three years. All the major (and minor) players still go to the US Open. So do the spectators. If Archer, Strickland, Reyes, et al decided not to attend, Barry (and Brady) would jump through hoops to get them what they want. Is this reasonable? It sure isn't fair.

I agree and I think its time that players take a stand. If I am out with my buddies and he gets crapped on by an establishment and swears them off then so do I.
Blackjack speaks about becoming united and that would be a great first step well now is the time. IMO the players should boycott the event or at least
sit down and discuss the matter with the UPA and the Behrmans. If Johnny,
Earl and the rest of the players want a future playing a sport they love then
they should provide support for their partners. The players need to realize that they are all in this together.
I agree with Blackjack that everything should be handled professionally.
If the so called top draws did not show it would add to the pressure.
I know the top dogs need their money and in a way they make the promotors more money but guys like Danny deserve whats due to them just the same.

I would love to see the players unite behind their fellow sportsmen and make
a stand. IMO that would be a great start at having a united players movement.
We all know Danny's story because of here but think about how many others there might have been or that there are now. Mika is one of the best and most respected players in the world. Its a shame when even the top
dont get paid and nothing occurs.

 

[watchez]

Ah...roach...just where might the money come from if not from the fans? From god or the pool fairy? Sponsors?...they get their money from the fans, too. Every sporting event I know of gets its money from the fans.

If you've got another place where it comes from, please share with us.

Jeff Livingston

Golf gets its money from the fans?? Horse racing gets its money from the fans??
You really want to know why pool tournaments still have no problem in getting players to show up and play......because most pool players are used to being busted. Their mind set is that the one person that wins the tournament now gets to live high off the hog for a few weeks or months. Then he runs out of money either by going to the casino, track, poker, or a bad pool game. No matter, he has been busted before and will be busted again.

 

[wayne]

Blackjack speaks about becoming united and that would be a great first step well now is the time. IMO the players should boycott the event or at least sit down and discuss the matter with the UPA and the Behrmans. If Johnny, Earl and the rest of the players want a future playing a sport they love then they should provide support for their partners. The players need to realize that they are all in this together....

I would love to see the players unite behind their fellow sportsmen and make
a stand. IMO that would be a great start at having a united players movement.

I think the UPA already tried to boycott the US Open a year or two ago and wanted all of the players support. The support they got I believe was only 3 players on the board of the UPA who didn't attend (I believe even Danny Harriman attended that one). So much for the players supporting each other, a noble idea but not a workable one. As long as the US Open is "the best game in town" the Behrmans' would have to commit a lot more harmful acts before the players would unite against them. Even the UPA is in bed with them now, and they still haven't made good on their past debts to all players, but the attempt of the UPA to make a stand met with no support from the players. Since they couldn't fight them they joined them. Ideally, the Behrmans' would get honest and straight and make good on their debts and then everyone could fully enjoy the US Open with out these dark clouds over it and the Behrmans'.

Wayne

 

[JustPlay]

??? You think increasing the prize fund is suddenly going to eliminate the problems? Not only would participation dwindle to zilch but the problems go above and beyond mere entry-fees. Having seen what goes on in the production of an event, I can assure you, a lot of money is spent on miscellaneous things. I'm not defending what happened at the US Open. All I'm saying is, it's not that simple. Many of these miscellanous expenses can be unpredictable. In order to have an event like this, you pretty much have to assume a loss and that's simply not good business sense. Anyone who is aware of a guaranteed loss would never host a tournament and anyone who thinks they can avoid it will simply replicate what happened at the Open.

On top of all that, the only way to attract players with an increased entry fee is to increase the added amount which brings you right back to the problems you had before. How are you going to get people to pay a grand unless you're adding 100k? In professional pool, $300-500 seems to be magic number. Anything more or less and you're guaranteed to affect turn-out.

I never said increasing the entry fees is the final solution. How come in poker hundreds of people are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars with no sponors or added monies??? Yea, I can't explain it either... Mens professional pool has to create some kind of attaction similar to the boom poker has seen over the last few years. And yes I know it takes alot of money to host a tournament such as the US open. But the players should be paid before the house is paid. Wouldn't you agree? For $500 dollars the US Open can only come up with 200 players at best...poker tournaments have about 300-500 players paying $1000 - $40,000 in entry fees and know one complains and everyone getting into the money gets paid. Why not try it in pool? I know the answer why they would not pay higher entry fees, I would like to here it from a few pros out there...

 

[sjm]

I never said increasing the entry fees is the final solution. How come in poker hundreds of people are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars with no sponors or added monies??? Yea, I can't explain it either...

Actually, this question has been considered many times on this forum. Poker players know that the luck factor is big enough that they have a shot to do well and make a big score, even if their playing skills are only ordinary. The lure has been magnified dramatically by the fact that Moneymaker and The Fossilman, two amateur poker players, have won the last two World Series of Poker main events.

If casual pool players felt they had a chance to finish very high in the US Open nine ball event, they might be lured in by a large entry fee and payoff. Unfortunately, despite posts by Williebetmore to the contrary, the luck factor in nineball isn't great enough to produce a great cinderella story by an unknown amateur against an elite field, and everyone knows it.

 

[JustPlay]

Actually, this question has been considered many times on this forum. Poker players know that the luck factor is big enough that they have a shot to do well and make a big score, even if their playing skills are only ordinary. The lure has been magnified dramatically by the fact that Moneymaker and The Fossilman, two amateur poker players, have won the last two World Series of Poker main events.

If casual pool players felt they had a chance to finish very high in the US Open nine ball event, they might be lured in by a large entry fee and payoff. Unfortunately, despite posts by Williebetmore to the contrary, the luck factor in nineball isn't great enough to produce a great cinderella story by an unknown amateur against an elite field, and everyone knows it.

SJM,

I agree the degree of luck in poker is by far the main reason people pay those amounts of money. But, being that the US Open has so many talented players in attendence paying a higer entry fee is worth it. With so little from sponsors and attendence from fans always in question, raising the entry fees to play in such a great event should be considered. Pool players like to play for thousands in ring games, match play, bet thousands on horse races, football games, etc...., why not pay a little more for a tournament? I am just comparing the payouts in poker to pool because the poker players are the only source of where the money comes from put on these events. Yes, they have some sponsors to put on the tournament, but all the payouts are posted by the players entry fees....It doesn't have to be in the thousands to play in these events, but higher fees should be considered....

 

[Williebetmore]

Unfortunately, despite posts by Williebetmore to the contrary, the luck factor in nineball isn't great enough to produce a great cinderella story by an unknown amateur against an elite field, and everyone knows it.

SJM,
I'm afraid my posts have been misinterpreted. I hope I have NEVER said that the luck factor in 9-ball was big enough to take an unknown amateur to a title - I totally agree with you that it could not happen, and also that it is the reason that pool (unlike poker) will never attract huge competitive fields with huge buy-ins.

My point has always been that the luck factor makes short race 9-ball a terrible way to differentiate players of a SIMILAR general ability level. Of the 50 players one could observe at any time at DCC - any one of them could reasonably win a race to 7 against the best player in the world. To me, that's a bad thing. Anyone capable of winning a race to 7 against the ghost could beat Efren any outing with some luck. A straight pool race to 500 on tight equipment is a horse of a different color.

P.S. - though I think my posts may have been misinterpreted, it fills me with a great sense of satisfaction to be considered in the cadre of critics who decry the luck factor in 9-ball and wish it was not the most commonly played game at the top professional level. Who wouldn't rather see what Efren, Earl, Buddy, or Johnny was capable of after playing straight pool for 20 years?Those guys are good.