Bank shots...

JoeyA said:
I think the "scientists" will simply ask you for "video proof" and if they are wrong, they will admit it.

I doubt very seriously if they will deny proof that is shared with them.
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Well stated, Joey. You are correct. Pool-playing "scientists" are always striving to learn new stuff and better understand how and why things happen. And if a new shot or technique is proven to be of practical use, we add it to our pool-playing arsenal.

Regards,
Dave
 
Drop The Rock said:
... the rail changes the direction of the cue ball, spin takes after contact and cue ball bends slightly. Top spin people!
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Nobody is questioning the physical explanation for why an OB might curve (in the short direction) after rebound. HSV B.15 clearly shows that a firmly banked ball, which will have stun, can pick up some top spin off the cushion (depending on ball, cushion, and cloth conditions).

The question that still remains unanswered is: Can the OB's path after rebound curve enough (in the short direction) to be of practical use (e.g., to curve around an obstacle ball, or to change the angle to a pocket a significant amount). I and others have still not seen a video of such of shot that shows convincing evidence that the OB can curve a noticeable and potentially-useful amount (in a practical sense at a pool table).

Now, there is no doubt that the OB's rebound direction can be "shortened" or "firmed up" or "twisted" off the cushion quite a bit with speed and induced spin. Some people seem to be confusing this with post-rebound curve. These are two different effects. Many examples of shortening the OB rebound direction with speed and spin can be found in the following videos:

NV C.14 - Bank shot cut-angle-effects drills, from VEPP IV
HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks

and more examples can be found on the spin-transfer shots resource page. However, the OB's post-rebound path is not curving a significant or usable amount with any of these shots; although, the "shortened" or "firming up" or "twisting" effect is most definitely important and useful.

Again, if anybody can post a link to an existing video or post a new video clearly showing an OB's post-rebound path curving a significant and usable amount (in a practical sense), I would love to see and learn from it. Again, this is different than just using speed and/or transferred spin to change the rebound direction (which is definitely an important and useful technique).

Regards,
Dave
 
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John Brumback said:
Who wants to bet that I can't curve a bank shot around a ball??
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John Brumback said:
Well,you need to have a good stroke and or hit,which (you do not)
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John,

I actually believe it can be done; and, honestly, I was surprised when I didn't see the effect when I filmed some of the videos linked above. When we hit some of those shots, I was convinced that the OB was curving after coming off the cushion. However, when we looked at the video later, we saw no curve (although, the OB was definitely being "shortened" or "held up" or "firmed up" or "twisted" a significant amount, which is most definitely useful in actual play).

Concerning needing a "good enough stroke" to hit a particular shot, I would be happy to accept the following challenge: Post a video clearly showing the OB curving a significant amount after rebound. If you do, I will also post a video of my best attempt to perform the exact same shot. I might not be able to execute the shot on the first attempt like a world-class professional like you, but I am confident I can duplicate any realistic and practically-useful bank shot that you can post, assuming the equipment conditions are similar. If I can't, then you will have conclusively proven that I "don't have the stroke" necessary to create the claimed post-rebound curve effect, and I will be more than happy to admit that I have a weak and inadequate stroke.

Regards, and with respect,
Dave
 
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dr_dave said:
John,

I actually believe it can be done; and, honestly, I was surprised when I didn't see the effect when I filmed some of the videos linked above. When we hit some of those shots, I was convinced that the OB was curving after coming off the cushion. However, when we looked at the video later, we saw no curve (although, the OB was definitely being "shortened" or "held up" or "firmed up" or "twisted" a significant amount, which is most definitely useful in actual play).

Concerning needing a "good enough stroke" to hit a particular shot, I would be happy to accept the following challenge: Post a video clearly showing the OB curving a significant amount after rebound. If you do, I will also post a video of my best attempt to perform the exact same shot. I might not be able to execute the shot on the first attempt like a world-class professional like you, but I am confident I can duplicate any realistic and practically-useful bank shot that you can post, assuming the equipment conditions are similar. If I can't, then you will have conclusively proven that I "don't have the stroke" necessary to create the claimed post-rebound curve effect, and I will be more than happy to admit that I have an obviously weak and inadequate stroke.

Regards, and with respect,
Dave
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Ok Dave,fair enough. I will attempt to get this on video asap. Sorry for talking to you like that.
I do have much respect for you and all that you do for pool shots. Regards and respect from me too!!. John B.
 
John Brumback said:
Me too,And I'm afraid their head would explode...:eek:.John Brumback
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It's just like when you are trying to bank an object ball straight back, when the object ball is close to the lower side rail, and the cueball is underneath it and further away from the side rail than the object ball, and you have to cut the object ball away from the corner pocket and twist it back off the top rail.
99.9% of the pool players will try to hit that with some form of extreme english, where people that know the proper method, know it doesn't take more than a half tip and a good stroke to get maximum results.

You can tell them how to do it all day long, but if their stroke doesn't let them put the special sauce on the ball, it's not gonna happen.
 
John Brumback said:
dr_dave said:
John,

I actually believe it can be done; and, honestly, I was surprised when I didn't see the effect when I filmed some of the videos linked above. When we hit some of those shots, I was convinced that the OB was curving after coming off the cushion. However, when we looked at the video later, we saw no curve (although, the OB was definitely being "shortened" or "held up" or "firmed up" or "twisted" a significant amount, which is most definitely useful in actual play).

Concerning needing a "good enough stroke" to hit a particular shot, I would be happy to accept the following challenge: Post a video clearly showing the OB curving a significant amount after rebound. If you do, I will also post a video of my best attempt to perform the exact same shot. I might not be able to execute the shot on the first attempt like a world-class professional like you, but I am confident I can duplicate any realistic and practically-useful bank shot that you can post, assuming the equipment conditions are similar. If I can't, then you will have conclusively proven that I "don't have the stroke" necessary to create the claimed post-rebound curve effect, and I will be more than happy to admit that I have a weak and inadequate stroke.

Regards, and with respect,
Dave
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Ok Dave,fair enough. I will attempt to get this on video asap. Sorry for talking to you like that.
I do have much respect for you and all that you do for pool shots. Regards and respect from me too!!. John B.
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Thanks John. I look forward to seeing the post-rebound OB-path-curve effect. I also look forward to the challenge of attempting to duplicate what you post to test the "virility" of my stroke.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
SUPERSTAR said:
It's just like when you are trying to bank an object ball straight back, when the object ball is close to the lower side rail, and the cueball is underneath it and further away from the side rail than the object ball, and you have to cut the object ball away from the corner pocket and twist it back off the top rail.
99.9% of the pool players will try to hit that with some form of extreme english, where people that know the proper method, know it doesn't take more than a half tip and a good stroke to get maximum results.

You can tell them how to do it all day long, but if their stroke doesn't let them put the special sauce on the ball, it's not gonna happen.
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Well put,IMO. JB
 
SUPERSTAR said:
It's just like when you are trying to bank an object ball straight back, when the object ball is close to the lower side rail, and the cueball is underneath it and further away from the side rail than the object ball, and you have to cut the object ball away from the corner pocket and twist it back off the top rail.
99.9% of the pool players will try to hit that with some form of extreme english, where people that know the proper method, know it doesn't take more than a half tip and a good stroke to get maximum results.

You can tell them how to do it all day long, but if their stroke doesn't let them put the special sauce on the ball, it's not gonna happen.
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This shot is not difficult at all, and it certainly doesn't require any type of "special sauce" (although, you do need to know how much speed, cut angle, and/or spin to use make it work). It also does not involve post-rebound OB-path curving. It simple uses cut-induced-spin or spin-induced-spin on the OB to change the rebound direction off the rail.

Regards,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Since you can't describe it, I guess we can assume you don't have one either.

pj <- long as we're assuming stuff
chgo
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Your funny.
You guys are the ones who break down strokes into stroke angle, speed, rotation of the cueball, hardness of the tip, follow through, and everything else.
So therefore, you apparently know what combination of factors is supposed to equal, a good stroke.

So instead of trying to set up the "what is a good stroke" discussion, so you can bust out your formulas to attempt to shoot down what some people might say in trying to describe a good stroke, in an attempt to make it seem like knowing what factors go into a good stroke, actually translates into you having one...
Why don't you get on the table and blast some bank shots around, instead.
:D
 
John Brumback said:
Well put,IMO. JB
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John, I would have to respectfully disagree. It's not the stroke, it's just understanding the shot and the technique. Perhaps I misunderstand the shot being described but I believe it's a standard one that comes up all the time at 1pocket and takes more knowledge than any kind of secret sauce applying stroke.

Lou Figueroa
 
SUPERSTAR said:
It's just like when you are trying to bank an object ball straight back, when the object ball is close to the lower side rail, and the cueball is underneath it and further away from the side rail than the object ball, and you have to cut the object ball away from the corner pocket and twist it back off the top rail.
99.9% of the pool players will try to hit that with some form of extreme english, where people that know the proper method, know it doesn't take more than a half tip and a good stroke to get maximum results.

You can tell them how to do it all day long, but if their stroke doesn't let them put the special sauce on the ball, it's not gonna happen.
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That common shot doesn't need any special stroke. It often doesn't even need any side.

pj
chgo
 
dr_dave said:
This shot is not difficult at all, and it certainly doesn't require any type of "special sauce" (although, you do need to know how much speed, cut angle, and/or spin to use make it work). It also does not involve post-rebound OB-path curving. It simple uses cut-induced-spin or spin-induced-spin on the OB to change the rebound direction off the rail.

Regards,
Dave
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Did I say it involved post rebound curving?
No, I did not.
Did I say the shot was difficult?
No, I did not.
I basically said, a certain % of pool players don't know to hit it.
And that they could hit the cueball in the right spot all day long, and not get the desired results unless they "stroke it" (you guys can figure out on your own, what I mean by my use of the word STROKE)
 
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SUPERSTAR said:
You guys are the ones who break down strokes into stroke angle, speed, rotation of the cueball, hardness of the tip, follow through, and everything else.
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We do?

...you apparently know what combination of factors is supposed to equal, a good stroke.
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Yes, in fact I do - hitting the CB on the correct spot, at the correct angle and speed, on demand.

If that list is too long for you, I can try to simplify.

pj
chgo
 
John Brumback said:
Ok Dave,fair enough. I will attempt to get this on video asap. Sorry for talking to you like that.
I do have much respect for you and all that you do for pool shots. Regards and respect from me too!!. John B.
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Don't feel singled out, John.

CJ Wiley doesn't know how to play either.:wink:

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If that list is too long for you, I can try to simplify.

pj
chgo
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My point exactly.
I am not doubting your ability to break down a stroke into its parts and explain each of those parts in detail.
So you can go right ahead describing what the perfect stroke is made up of all day long, to your hearts content.

I on the other hand am actually gonna go out to the pool room, and attempt to put my sorry excuse of a stroke, in action.

But don't let that stop you.
I'm sure plenty of people would LOVE a good description of what a stroke is made up of.
Unfortunately, I am not one of them.

Catch you later
 
John Brumback said:
Who wants to bet that I can't curve a bank shot around a ball?? Line the "experts" up!!!:eek:. John B.

Oh that's right...know -it alls won't bet:boring2:
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You can see it on the straight backs on your DVD. I was surprised. I went to the pool hall and setup the cross side with a ball blocking the bank line and I was able to make it after only a couple of tries.
 
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