Bank shots...

[jalapus logan]

The way you hit the ball, manipulates it's path off the rail, so that it curves and approaches the pocket from a slightly different angle.

So imagine shooting a cueball directly into the side pocket from frozen to the bottom rail, vs shooting it into the same side pocket from the exact middle of the table.

One of those 2 shots is going to be easier because you have a much bigger pocket target to aim at. Right?

I'm pretty sure that is what J.B. is talking about.
Obviously, we are talking about subtle differences in the size of the "bigger" pocket angle vs the normal angle, but to bankers, that's a HUGE difference.

If you are wondering about the curve i am talking about, stand at the head of the table, and put the cueball away from the top rail one diamond, and one diamond away from the side rail on either side.
Then just start shooting the cueball by itself off the side rail you are closest to, trying to make the cueball 1 rail into the opposite corner pocket that is down table.

Now shoot this same cueball shot with draw at different speeds at the same exact angle each time, and you will see an exaggerated example of the principle i am talking about and how it can be manipulated when you watch the cueball curve after hitting the first rail, and traveling different paths based on your speed and draw.

Now imagine you can curve an object ball kinda like that.

The curve you're talking about is true. You can really see the ball bend on its way toward the pocket. JB first showed me that by standing in the rebound path of the ball while he shot it. Blew my mind. Better yet, doing this imparts beneficial spin on the object ball which helps it spin into the pocket should you brush the rail on the way in. Really neat stuff.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

The curve you're talking about is true. You can really see the ball bend on its way toward the pocket. JB first showed me that by standing in the rebound path of the ball while he shot it. Blew my mind. Better yet, doing this imparts beneficial spin on the object ball which helps it spin into the pocket should you brush the rail on the way in. Really neat stuff.

I know it's true.
After Spaeth finished torturing me, by banking 9 and out by the way, (which i had never seen before) he showed me what was up.

I've used it ever since.

But you can't tell that to someone who is of the mindset of "this point on the ball, that point on the rail, this angle cause the object ball is gonna travel in a straight line."
Sure, those particular points work if you are going to DRIBBLE the ball in the hole.

But how many world class bankers, dribble the ball into the hole?
ZERO.

Every single one of them, hits the ball with some pace cause you can't bend the ball hitting it like a sissy.

That's why any discussion about it in text form with some people, without any type of visual demonstration is like beating your head against a wall because some people simply can't grasp the concept of bending balls, or can't abandon their whole "object ball traveling in a straight line from this point" thought process.

You tell someone that thinks in terms of straight lines that you can bend the ball, their head explodes.
Then they say you are full of it and call you a bunch of names and insults.

 

[dr_dave]

... Every single one of them, hits the ball with some pace ...

There are many advantages to using fast speed with bank shots. Also, there are reliable aiming systems that can be used with fast-speed banks. Even if somebody doesn't explicitly use an "aiming system," he or she still knows the "system" (i.e., "how to aim") intuitively from extensive and meaningful practice. Good bankers also know (from extensive practice) how to adjust intuitively for all kick and bank effects so they can make necessary adjustments when appropriate.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The way you hit the ball, manipulates it's path off the rail, so that it curves and approaches the pocket from a slightly different angle.

I knowEvery single one of them, hits the ball with some pace cause you can't bend the ball hitting it like a sissy.

A ball banked hard definitely curves short (especially for wider bank angles). I think it's the natural result of the cushion nose being above the center of the ball and producing cross-table "rebound follow" (see the pic below).

It happens more on hard-hit shots because a softer-hit ball likely has some forward roll, negating some or all of the "rebound follow". I think we also see the curve more clearly on hard-hit shots because the curve happens later (farther from the rail), so it's more obvious.

pj
chgo

View attachment 48836

 

[dr_dave]

A ball banked hard definitely curves short (especially for wider bank angles).

Do you or anybody else know of any online videos that clearly demonstrate this effect? Bob Jewett and I did some videos together comparing banks of different angles and speeds, and we never saw the effect. Here are the videos:

HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks

Now, spin transfer can definitely effect bank-shot rebound angles. The following video shows some examples:

NV C.14 - Bank shot cut-angle-effects drills, from VEPP IV

and many more examples can be found on the spin-transfer resource page.

Obviously, with kick shots, the post-rebound CB path can curve dramatically (in either direction) with the use of top and bottom spin. Here are some dramatic examples:

NV B.29 - Shortening the cue ball rebound angle with draw and reverse english, with Tom Ross
NV B.57 - Kick shot speed, topspin, and bottom-spin effects, with Bob Jewett

However, with fast-speed banks, the OB has mostly stun (possibly with some transferred spin) into the cushion. I agree with you that the OB can pick up some topspin off the cushion (as shown in HSV B.15) that might be able to cause a small amount of post-rebound shortening curve, but I don't think this effect is as large as some people might think (especially at wider bank angles).

Again, if anybody has a video clearly showing a bank rebound-curve effect, I would love to see it.

Regards,
Dave

 

[btown]

I make those kicks ALL the time, ask Beau, ask Oscar... ask anyone who's seen me play on a regular basis...

Jaden

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=362538

Above is the first thread I described what I do in and two posts down you can see JB (John Barton, not John Brumback) saying that he saw it and that it works...That's because I showed it to him in person and demonstrated it on the blue label diamond nine footer at Jamaica Joe's in OKC...

You totally aimed to hit rail first

 

[TATE]

If you want to become a better banker,start thinking about the method to hit the "bank shot" instead of worrying about some system about how to aim the bank shot.
If you know the best method for the bank shot at hand,you will not have to AIM so precise anyway..
Champions use methods..suckers use.........you can fill in the blanks. John B.

John,

I don't play bank pool but I've noticed that as my game has improved, so has my banking.

Just want to see what you think about something. Long banks that go from one of the side rails to the corner pockets, I can't "see" the shot like the routine banks. I have a hard time visualizing the angle. Since I kick pretty well, I started lining them up from the OB like I'm trying to just kick them into the pocket. Then once I have that line, I can see the angle I need from the OB to the cue ball and roll them in. I've been making a lot of these this way. It's surprisingly accurate as long as I roll the balls instead of firing them. What do you think of lining up the shot this way? Below is the kind of bank I'm talking about.

Chris

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Obviously, with kick shots, the post-rebound CB path can curve dramatically (in either direction) with the use of top and bottom spin.

...

However, with fast-speed banks, the OB has mostly stun (possibly with some transferred spin) into the cushion.

Some good bankers believe enough top/bottom spin can be transferred to an OB to produce the same effects, but I don't think so.

I agree with you that the OB can pick up some topspin off the cushion (as shown in HSV B.15) that might be able to cause a small amount of post-rebound shortening curve, but I don't think this effect is as large as some people might think (especially at wider bank angles).

I don't think it's large, certainly not comparable to what can be done with the CB for a kick - but I've noticed it many times, and even posted about it (5 years ago ): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=210628

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Do you or anybody else know of any online videos that clearly demonstrate this effect? Bob Jewett and I did some videos together comparing banks of different angles and speeds, and we never saw the effect. Here are the videos:

HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks

Now, spin transfer can definitely effect bank-shot rebound angles. The following video shows some examples:

NV C.14 - Bank shot cut-angle-effects drills, from VEPP IV

and many more examples can be found on the spin-transfer resource page.

Obviously, with kick shots, the post-rebound CB path can curve dramatically (in either direction) with the use of top and bottom spin. Here are some dramatic examples:

NV B.29 - Shortening the cue ball rebound angle with draw and reverse english, with Tom Ross
NV B.57 - Kick shot speed, topspin, and bottom-spin effects, with Bob Jewett

However, with fast-speed banks, the OB has mostly stun (possibly with some transferred spin) into the cushion. I agree with you that the OB can pick up some topspin off the cushion (as shown in HSV B.15) that might be able to cause a small amount of post-rebound shortening curve, but I don't think this effect is as large as some people might think (especially at wider bank angles).

Again, if anybody has a video clearly showing a bank rebound-curve effect, I would love to see it.

Some good bankers believe enough top/bottom spin can be transferred to an OB to produce the same effects, but I don't think so.

I don't think it's large, certainly not comparable to what can be done with the CB for a kick - but I've noticed it many times, and even posted about it (5 years ago ): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=210628

Again, I will remain skeptical until I see convincing demonstrations of a meaningful effect for reasonable shots on reasonable equipment.

If you or others know of any convincing online videos, please post links.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Again, I will remain skeptical until I see convincing demonstrations of a meaningful effect for reasonable shots on reasonable equipment.

If you or others know of any convincing online videos, please post links.

Regards,
Dave

Maybe you already have one. Here's a comment from you in that thread from 5 years ago:

...as shown by HSV B.15, a ball stunned into a rail (as is the case with a fast-speed bank) will pick up topspin (with a spin axis parallel to the rail) to make the rebounding ball curve shorter (for both slick and sticky conditions).

Maybe you've changed your mind (or become less convinced) since then?

pj <- or maybe I misunderstand...?
chgo

 

[John Brumback]

John,

I don't play bank pool but I've noticed that as my game has improved, so has my banking.

Just want to see what you think about something. Long banks that go from one of the side rails to the corner pockets, I can't "see" the shot like the routine banks. I have a hard time visualizing the angle. Since I kick pretty well, I started lining them up from the OB like I'm trying to just kick them into the pocket. Then once I have that line, I can see the angle I need from the OB to the cue ball and roll them in. I've been making a lot of these this way. It's surprisingly accurate as long as I roll the balls instead of firing them. What do you think of lining up the shot this way?

Chris

Good question. That method of lining up the shot should work for shooting banks easy.

However imo,I feel they are alot easier to make firing them in with my method of holding them and curving them just a little. Try your method of lining them up but fire em and stun the cball forward a few inches and see what happens.

Here's a little tip that might help some......When I was young and learning fast,I figured out that all them scratches that I kept making ( like 2 in the side,2 in the corner,ect ect) were really dead banks too!! John B.

 

[TATE]

Good question. That method of lining up the shot should work for shooting banks easy.

However imo,I feel they are alot easier to make firing them in with my method of holding them and curving them just a little. Try your method of lining them up but fire em and stun the cball forward a few inches and see what happens.

Here's a little tip that might help some......When I was young and learning fast,I figured out that all them scratches that I kept making ( like 2 in the side,2 in the corner,ect ect) were really dead banks too!! John B.

I'll work on it. For me these are difficult banks and maybe if I practice firing them in, I'll get a feel for it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'll work on it. For me these are difficult banks and maybe if I practice firing them in, I'll get a feel for it.

I find that learning some simple "reference tracks" for those banks is very helpful. The equal-angle tracks to the first three diamonds on the long rail are as shown in the pic below - I find aiming them at the diamonds (dotted lines) compensates pretty well for a rolling ball going long.

pj
chgo

P.S. The same starting points on the short rail aimed at half-diamonds on the long rail also works for banks/kicks to the side pocket.

View attachment 9252

 

[Tony_in_MD]

My experience agrees, I am more successful banking balls with space as opposed to rolling them in.

Good question. That method of lining up the shot should work for shooting banks easy.

However imo,I feel they are alot easier to make firing them in with my method of holding them and curving them just a little. Try your method of lining them up but fire em and stun the cball forward a few inches and see what happens.

Here's a little tip that might help some......When I was young and learning fast,I figured out that all them scratches that I kept making ( like 2 in the side,2 in the corner,ect ect) were really dead banks too!! John B.

 

[dr_dave]

Again, I will remain skeptical until I see convincing demonstrations of a meaningful effect for reasonable shots on reasonable equipment.

If you or others know of any convincing online videos, please post links.

Maybe you already have one. Here's a comment from you in that thread from 5 years ago:

"...as shown by HSV B.15, a ball stunned into a rail (as is the case with a fast-speed bank) will pick up topspin (with a spin axis parallel to the rail) to make the rebounding ball curve shorter (for both slick and sticky conditions)."

Maybe you've changed your mind (or become less convinced) since then?

The effect in HSV B.15 is definitely real and potentially significant (i.e., useful in a practical sense) for nearly-straight-on kick shots.

What I am questioning is whether bank-shot post-rebound OB-curve shortening can be significant enough to be used effectively at the table (e.g., to significantly change the angle to a pocket, or maybe to avoid an obstacle ball). That's the demonstration I am looking for ... one that shows significant (i.e., useful in a practical sense) post-rebound OB curving.

Again, the following videos Bob and I shot together, showing banks at different speeds and angles, did not show such curving:

HSV B.41 - bank speed effects, with Bob Jewett
NV B.95 - Post-rebound spin, angle, and curve for stunned kicks and banks

It's good to have you back again (from your most-recent "English-induced vacation"),
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

Again, I will remain skeptical until I see convincing demonstrations of a meaningful effect for reasonable shots on reasonable equipment.

If you or others know of any convincing online videos, please post links.

Regards,
Dave

I'd like to see a demo of visible "curving short" off the cushion also.

It is easy to see a ball "curving long" with new cloth on nearly any shot that rolls at speed into the cushion at 45 degrees. You can see the hook off the rail. Easily. You can probably set up an obstacle in the right place and get the ball to bend around the obstacle to prove the curve.

Can the same be done for "curving short"? What are the requirements and the setup?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'd like to see a demo of visible "curving short" off the cushion also.

It is easy to see a ball "curving long" with new cloth on nearly any shot that rolls at speed into the cushion at 45 degrees. You can see the hook off the rail. Easily. You can probably set up an obstacle in the right place and get the ball to bend around the obstacle to prove the curve.

Can the same be done for "curving short"? What are the requirements and the setup?

I'm surprised you haven't seen this - I just had a friend stand so he could look along the rebound line of a few firmly-hit banks (~45 degree angle) and he immediately saw the (significant) curves. I could even see it from the shooter's perspective - I'm sure you would too if you had a friend hit the shots for you.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

I'm surprised you haven't seen this - I just had a friend stand so he could look along the rebound line of a few firmly-hit banks (~45 degree angle) and he immediately saw the (significant) curves. I could even see it from the shooter's perspective - I'm sure you would too if you had a friend hit the shots for you.

I sometimes think it looks like the OB is curving (in the short direction) after rebound; but with the linked videos, the effect is not visible in any of the shots (looking down the rebound line). Again, a convincing video would be helpful to see. If nobody has a link, maybe they can film the effect with a smart phone and post it on YouTube.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

I sometimes think it looks like the OB is curving (in the short direction) after rebound; but with the linked videos, the effect is not visible in any of the shots (looking down the rebound line). ...

It may be that it is more visible on worn Simonis.

 

[dr_dave]

It may be that it is more visible on worn Simonis.

Hopefully, somebody with access to "worn Simonis" (and/or a can of Silicone Spray) can post a convincing smart-phone video of clearly-noticeable (and potentially useful) post-rebound OB curve in the bank-shortening direction.

Regards,
Dave