Bar Table • Heavy Cue Balls • Pool Tips •
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
You need to change gears mentally and physically
it's a whole new ball game.
First thing you need to do is leave the big long stroke at home. You still might need it but only on very few shots.
Don't be afraid to jack up a little. Alot of times you have to jack up anyway because the rails are so much closer. This will enable you to get some short little acurate shape on many shots.
If you know your going to play on this bar table you better play some on it for a day or 2 ahead of time to not only get used to the ball but also the patterns. At least play with that ball on the 9 footer. This will actually help alot.
Your patterns will be totally different. Instead of going way down here or way over there to get a perfect shot just play to get a shot. Don't get in trouble trying to get perfect shape when you don't gain that much as far as a better shot.
Be more aware of your speed. Gauge the speed and keep it in your head continually. Your speed is more important now because the table is smaller. Imagine a 2 foot table. Much worse.
Always force the ball and force the shape with the rails understanding each and every shot before you even hit a ball.
It's easy to thinking it is too easy because the shots are all short. Think,think,think.
Aim even harder than you would on the 9 footer. You have to hit these balls perfect or the cue ball won't go exactly where you want it and you have less room for error with the smaller table.
Learn how the rails bank. If they bank long or short. You need to know. Chances are if you get a hit you might hook your opponent back because of less room and more clutter.
Make sure to really focus on the break to hit the balls really square. The rail to pocket ratio is alot higher on a bar table.
There is about 15% more area to scratch on with a bar table.
Less rail area but the pockets are the same size. Hit em square and keep that cue ball from flying around.
A person that never hardly ever plays on a bar table is in big trouble. The game is so much different. The patterns are so much different. The cue ball is different. You need to break different. You need to stroke different.
Best advice i have if you don't play bar table hardly at all you better spend about a week on it and you want to play with someone that can play good on the bar table.
Monkey see monkey do this is how most of us learn the best.
See if you can keep up with this guy also.
There's lots more but this is a start.
it's a whole new ball game.
First thing you need to do is leave the big long stroke at home. You still might need it but only on very few shots.
Don't be afraid to jack up a little. Alot of times you have to jack up anyway because the rails are so much closer. This will enable you to get some short little acurate shape on many shots.
If you know your going to play on this bar table you better play some on it for a day or 2 ahead of time to not only get used to the ball but also the patterns. At least play with that ball on the 9 footer. This will actually help alot.
Your patterns will be totally different. Instead of going way down here or way over there to get a perfect shot just play to get a shot. Don't get in trouble trying to get perfect shape when you don't gain that much as far as a better shot.
Be more aware of your speed. Gauge the speed and keep it in your head continually. Your speed is more important now because the table is smaller. Imagine a 2 foot table. Much worse.
Always force the ball and force the shape with the rails understanding each and every shot before you even hit a ball.
It's easy to thinking it is too easy because the shots are all short. Think,think,think.
Aim even harder than you would on the 9 footer. You have to hit these balls perfect or the cue ball won't go exactly where you want it and you have less room for error with the smaller table.
Learn how the rails bank. If they bank long or short. You need to know. Chances are if you get a hit you might hook your opponent back because of less room and more clutter.
Make sure to really focus on the break to hit the balls really square. The rail to pocket ratio is alot higher on a bar table.
There is about 15% more area to scratch on with a bar table.
Less rail area but the pockets are the same size. Hit em square and keep that cue ball from flying around.
A person that never hardly ever plays on a bar table is in big trouble. The game is so much different. The patterns are so much different. The cue ball is different. You need to break different. You need to stroke different.
Best advice i have if you don't play bar table hardly at all you better spend about a week on it and you want to play with someone that can play good on the bar table.
Monkey see monkey do this is how most of us learn the best.
See if you can keep up with this guy also.
There's lots more but this is a start.
Going to a 7' table
I agree with all of the previous posts that talk about less cue ball travel and all that.
But no one mentioned the following concepts: shorten up you bridge and move up your back hand. You need to shorten up your stroke to help keep cue ball travel in check.
I find it also helps to slightly elevate the butt on many shots. This allows a firmer hit with less cue ball travel.
It is really important to concentrate on every shot - especially on the following position.
On a 9' table people often try for 'good' position. On a 7' table, just make sure you can see the ball because the actual shot is much easier.
The elevated stick I got from noticing Welden Rogers about 15 years ago at VNEA/BCA nationals. He keep whitey in line.
Hope it helps,
Mark Griffin
I agree with all of the previous posts that talk about less cue ball travel and all that.
But no one mentioned the following concepts: shorten up you bridge and move up your back hand. You need to shorten up your stroke to help keep cue ball travel in check.
I find it also helps to slightly elevate the butt on many shots. This allows a firmer hit with less cue ball travel.
It is really important to concentrate on every shot - especially on the following position.
On a 9' table people often try for 'good' position. On a 7' table, just make sure you can see the ball because the actual shot is much easier.
The elevated stick I got from noticing Welden Rogers about 15 years ago at VNEA/BCA nationals. He keep whitey in line.
Hope it helps,
Mark Griffin
Going from the big table to the little table.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was a big success for me and I hope that others reap the same benefit that I did and that you have a magical weekend.
I've picked a number of the tips in this thread and consolidated them somewhat for easy browsing, printing etc. If you want your team or yourself to perform better on the bar table, you might consider reading and retaining these tips to memory.
1. Control the cue ball on the break.
2. Pay attention to how the balls are racked.
3. Pay attention to how other breakers are making balls on the break. It could be the only difference between winning and losing.
4. Avoid the side pockets whenever possible as they are smaller pockets.
5. Shoot for the corner pockets as they are large and generous to most shots.
6. That being said, ‘Just because the corner pockets are large and the table is small, “DON’T take any shot for granted”.
7. If you do use the side pockets, MASTER shooting into the smaller pockets before you start the tournament.
8. If you use side spin, MASTER the use of Side Spin, before you start the tournament. Remember, the heavy “ROCK WILL ROLL”. MASTER the art of spinning the heavy rock and use it prudently.
9. Play minimal shape. Most shots are close and do not require pinpoint shape.
10. Avoid accidentally running into balls while playing the run out, unless that is the plan. Accidentally bumped balls have a way of creating new problems for running out.
11. Do not slow roll the cue ball or the object balls as smaller tables can often times have serious leans at slow speeds.
12. Practice cheating the pockets, at different speeds, because on occasion, you can achieve even better shape than you normally would.
13. Avoid force follow on the bar table as the outcome is hard to determine with any consistency.
(regular" follow is your friend with heavy cue balls as that's what it wants to do anyway)
14. Bar box banking is full of hazards. Test the rails early and often. That being said, instead of playing a weak safety (and most are when there are only a couple of balls left on the table), take makeable bank shots and be sure and hit them at the proper speed.
15. Less cue ball movement is key to success on a bar box. Select patterns that minimize cue ball movement. For example, settle for a longer shot where you can shoot a stop shot rather than a short cut shot where you have to move the cue ball a foot or two and bounce off one cushion.
16. Stop shots and stun shots are your friend.
17. Break out clusters early, especially if you are going to try and run out.
18. OK, I just remembered, I did shorten up my bridge and moved my back hand forward just a bit and it did seem to help on some shots.
19. Be more aware of your cue ball speed. These smaller tables require that as you have less distance that you need to travel than on a larger table.
20. THINK, THINK, THINK! Because this is a smaller table and you don't regularly play on them, you have to constantly think about all of the above. Playing on a smaller table requires that you pay more attention, not less.
The other tips either weren't tested by me or I just didn't add them.
Any other tips?
Thanks,
Lucky Joe
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was a big success for me and I hope that others reap the same benefit that I did and that you have a magical weekend.
I've picked a number of the tips in this thread and consolidated them somewhat for easy browsing, printing etc. If you want your team or yourself to perform better on the bar table, you might consider reading and retaining these tips to memory.
1. Control the cue ball on the break.
2. Pay attention to how the balls are racked.
3. Pay attention to how other breakers are making balls on the break. It could be the only difference between winning and losing.
4. Avoid the side pockets whenever possible as they are smaller pockets.
5. Shoot for the corner pockets as they are large and generous to most shots.
6. That being said, ‘Just because the corner pockets are large and the table is small, “DON’T take any shot for granted”.
7. If you do use the side pockets, MASTER shooting into the smaller pockets before you start the tournament.
8. If you use side spin, MASTER the use of Side Spin, before you start the tournament. Remember, the heavy “ROCK WILL ROLL”. MASTER the art of spinning the heavy rock and use it prudently.
9. Play minimal shape. Most shots are close and do not require pinpoint shape.
10. Avoid accidentally running into balls while playing the run out, unless that is the plan. Accidentally bumped balls have a way of creating new problems for running out.
11. Do not slow roll the cue ball or the object balls as smaller tables can often times have serious leans at slow speeds.
12. Practice cheating the pockets, at different speeds, because on occasion, you can achieve even better shape than you normally would.
13. Avoid force follow on the bar table as the outcome is hard to determine with any consistency.
(regular" follow is your friend with heavy cue balls as that's what it wants to do anyway)
14. Bar box banking is full of hazards. Test the rails early and often. That being said, instead of playing a weak safety (and most are when there are only a couple of balls left on the table), take makeable bank shots and be sure and hit them at the proper speed.
15. Less cue ball movement is key to success on a bar box. Select patterns that minimize cue ball movement. For example, settle for a longer shot where you can shoot a stop shot rather than a short cut shot where you have to move the cue ball a foot or two and bounce off one cushion.
16. Stop shots and stun shots are your friend.
17. Break out clusters early, especially if you are going to try and run out.
18. OK, I just remembered, I did shorten up my bridge and moved my back hand forward just a bit and it did seem to help on some shots.
19. Be more aware of your cue ball speed. These smaller tables require that as you have less distance that you need to travel than on a larger table.
20. THINK, THINK, THINK! Because this is a smaller table and you don't regularly play on them, you have to constantly think about all of the above. Playing on a smaller table requires that you pay more attention, not less.
The other tips either weren't tested by me or I just didn't add them.
Any other tips?
Thanks,
Lucky Joe
Last edited:
Another thing that I found, especially with 8 ball, is that I have to change my break speed. With the rack being closer I found that if I use the same break that I do on 9' tables that the cue ball isn't on the cloth when it hits and tends to fly off the table. If I lower the speed of my break a bit whitey stays on the table.
Brian
Brian
Practice up on table cursing before playing - most bar boxes are trash. Other than that, the tips you've listed are very good.
That's sounds logical as well. But I guess we got that covered with controlling the cue ball on the break. Thanks,
Lucky Joe
Good list, but I'm not crazy about # 13.
13. Avoid force follow on the bar table as the outcome is hard to determine with any consistency.
Not sure if you mean force follow as opposed to regular follow, but I would guess you mean plain ole' follow. If follow is a no-no, what else are you supposed to do? You cant get straight on every shot, so I always try to use as much stop and follow as I can.
13. Avoid force follow on the bar table as the outcome is hard to determine with any consistency.
Not sure if you mean force follow as opposed to regular follow, but I would guess you mean plain ole' follow. If follow is a no-no, what else are you supposed to do? You cant get straight on every shot, so I always try to use as much stop and follow as I can.
You know, I put that in there (FORCE-FOLLOW) but haven't tried it recently. The times in the past when I have tried force follow on a bar table, the cue ball did not react favorably. The force follow was a shot where the object ball was close to the rail and I was trying to bank a ball but force the cue ball to follow and stay on the bottom rail. It took off like one of those crazy eight balls that doesn't know where it's headed.
I'll try a little force follow on the shot I have in mind and make an edit if needed after this weekend.
JoeyA
So you did mean force follow. Makes better sense now, thanks Joey.
Banks
Banned
I'd print this out and hand it to my friends for their notes. Most importantly, remember not to take the shots for granted and don't hit them too soft unless you know they are going to fall. Pulling up short or allowing table roll to change your shot will cost you if you let it. I tend to put a tiny bit more oomph into my shots when i notice any roll.
Don't be afraid of english, just understand that the dirtier balls will grab more. Oh, and with the mention of breakouts, usually a tap will separate them enough without creating another possible cluster elsewhere.
"regular" follow is your friend with heavy cue balls as that's what it wants to do anyway. a lot of people will say that follow is a better option than draw because of the weight difference.
"force" follow is harder to control, in my experience, with heavy cb's - in addition to the questionable rails and cloth there's just too many variables.
I consider myself lucky to have a much better draw stroke than follow stroke so I can still play my regular patterns usually, but when I watch everyone else on my league, they almost never use draw. I attribute this to my pool history being 95% on big tables while theirs is more on BB's. I'm working on my follow stroke/control to help minimize CB movement in my patterns.
I have a 9' Diamond at home, but play a lot of tournaments on bar tables. One of the most important things to remember is move the cue ball on the bar table as little as possible. There is just as much pocket on a bar table as on a 9 footer, just less rail. Turning the cue ball loose will result in scratching a lot. Position on a bar table doesn't have to be quite as close because of the shorter distance of most shots, but windows are smaller and there is much more congestion on the bar box.
Good Luck on your transition between the two tables.
Good Luck on your transition between the two tables.
I was looking around for information about heavy cue balls and their impact on force-follow and firmly struck shots. Not surprised to see that people are complaining about that here.
What's going on in this situation?
The most common outcome for me is the cue ball traveling preposterously far. I guess the cue ball just doesn't get much energy taken away by the lighter ball hit at an angle?
Also, any breaking tips for bar box/mud ball 8 ball?
What's going on in this situation?
The most common outcome for me is the cue ball traveling preposterously far. I guess the cue ball just doesn't get much energy taken away by the lighter ball hit at an angle?
Also, any breaking tips for bar box/mud ball 8 ball?
FYI, there is some info and demonstrations here:
ball weight and size difference effects
Enjoy,
Dave
- I think is also easier to scratch on a barbox, specially a Valley table with bigger pockets.
- Not only the pcokets are bigger for your Cueball to go in, but also with more clutters on a smaller table could be more likely you get a layout were you could easily kiss a ball and scratch.
- So yeah, move more precise between traffic, and unless you really need to, avoid moving around table and between clutters.
- Another thing is look at the conditions of the balls, if they are very dirty, adjust your aim on half ball shots or use a little of outside English.
- Control you break, again easier table to scratch on or bounce the cue ball away from the table on the break.
I started out in pool playing bar box 8 ball and became a fairly strong bar box player, but when I moved to California I started playing exclusively 9 ball and 1-pocket on very tight 9ft brunswicks, which is like the antithesis of bar box. The first time I went back to visit Colorado I played a long gambling session with a player I used to play about even with and I severely underperformed which disappointed me because I considered myself a much stronger overall player than when I first moved away. Bar box pool, especially 8 ball, really is a different, and very specialized game. I started playing more bar box in California and now I feel like I can switch pretty seamlessly, but there are always a few things I have to remind myself of when I make the switch.
1. This has already been said, but dial the stroke back. It really is a different stroke on a bar table.
2. take your time when studying the pattern. Pattern play in bar table 8 ball is the most important thing IMO. There are a lot of bar-box 8 specialists, and the reason they win consistently against guys with better ball pocketing/cue ball skills is because their pattern play is so good. It's easy to just get down and start shooting when it looks like you have a throw in, but you'll occasionally realize towards the end of your out that you missed a much better pattern and now you have to come with a risky shot.
3. really study the rails/cue ball when you get on a new table. Seems like all bar boxes play different and there's always a variety of cue balls. Figure out how they play and adjust your game. All the stuff about keeping it simple and just rolling the ball around is fine, but at some point you're going to have to play tight position so you need to know how the ball reacts off the rails.
4. don't lose concentration. this may be more of a personal problem, but it's can be easy to forget that you can actually still miss a ball on a bar table after you watch em all go in for a while. It gets really tempting to start taking shots for granted and if you get in this habit you'll eventually roll yourself behind a ball or you'll be surprised by a ball that hangs up that you thought you couldn't miss, etc.
Anyway, those are just things I try to remember when I play bar tables so hopefully that can be helpful to you too.
1. This has already been said, but dial the stroke back. It really is a different stroke on a bar table.
2. take your time when studying the pattern. Pattern play in bar table 8 ball is the most important thing IMO. There are a lot of bar-box 8 specialists, and the reason they win consistently against guys with better ball pocketing/cue ball skills is because their pattern play is so good. It's easy to just get down and start shooting when it looks like you have a throw in, but you'll occasionally realize towards the end of your out that you missed a much better pattern and now you have to come with a risky shot.
3. really study the rails/cue ball when you get on a new table. Seems like all bar boxes play different and there's always a variety of cue balls. Figure out how they play and adjust your game. All the stuff about keeping it simple and just rolling the ball around is fine, but at some point you're going to have to play tight position so you need to know how the ball reacts off the rails.
4. don't lose concentration. this may be more of a personal problem, but it's can be easy to forget that you can actually still miss a ball on a bar table after you watch em all go in for a while. It gets really tempting to start taking shots for granted and if you get in this habit you'll eventually roll yourself behind a ball or you'll be surprised by a ball that hangs up that you thought you couldn't miss, etc.
Anyway, those are just things I try to remember when I play bar tables so hopefully that can be helpful to you too.
A lot said about leaving the big stoke on the shelf...
I would characterize the proper stroke as a "punch shot". It's just an abbreviated version of your SAME STROKE, just EASIER! Shorter back, shorter forward... Keep it simple. Won't need to travel 20' round trip... Don't get caught up in thinking you need to change something on short notice. That's probably the worst thing someone could do. Again, it's your same stroke... Good luck!
I would characterize the proper stroke as a "punch shot". It's just an abbreviated version of your SAME STROKE, just EASIER! Shorter back, shorter forward... Keep it simple. Won't need to travel 20' round trip... Don't get caught up in thinking you need to change something on short notice. That's probably the worst thing someone could do. Again, it's your same stroke... Good luck!
Use TOI and "dampen" the cue ball.
Save your fancy "spinning" for the big tables where you have more room to let the dogs out.
Save your fancy "spinning" for the big tables where you have more room to let the dogs out.