Bar table pool vs. big table pool

JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Ok, I had a disagreement in the TAR chat about this. Jeanette Lee was playing Larry Price and the announcers were constantly talking about how Jeanette wasn't a bar table player and if only she had some bar table experience and on and on.

I said that it's all the same. I said it's all about controlling the cueball and nothing else.

I say this as a player who has played bar tables and big tables for 30 years now.

I just don't see the difference at the higher level and I have had this discussion with people like Buddy Hall and David Matlock while driving down the road with both of them. Matlock told me that it's easier to play big tables because balls don't cluster up as much but other than that there is no difference with a normal cue ball. He did say that the game is different on the bar table with a big cue ball.

Buddy said a good player should be able to play his best on either table.

So what do you all think - tell me what the real concrete difference is from bar tables to big tables.
 
JB Cases said:
Ok, I had a disagreement in the TAR chat about this. Jeanette Lee was playing Larry Price and the announcers were constantly talking about how Jeanette wasn't a bar table player and if only she had some bar table experience and on and on.

I said that it's all the same. I said it's all about controlling the cueball and nothing else.

I say this as a player who has played bar tables and big tables for 30 years now.

I just don't see the difference at the higher level and I have had this discussion with people like Buddy Hall and David Matlock while driving down the road with both of them. Matlock told me that it's easier to play big tables because balls don't cluster up as much but other than that there is no difference with a normal cue ball. He did say that the game is different on the bar table with a big cue ball.

Buddy said a good player should be able to play his best on either table.

So what do you all think - tell me what the real concrete difference is from bar tables to big tables.
Click to expand...

The fact that the balls cluster up more emphasizes different skills. All good players should be experienced in dealing with clusters, but players who are "bar table players" will have a deeper understanding of the nuances of how and when to break them up, when to try and get your opponent to break them up through safety play, when to play combos or banks instead of moving balls, etc.

Also when it comes to position play, in big-table 9-ball it's very much about speed control. On a bar table this is de-emphasized, since getting close to the ball isn't much of an issue, and what's emphasized more is CB directional control; having the CB navigate a path around and between obstructing balls with much less room to work with.

And of course, "bar table players" will rarely have as straight and accurate a stroke as a big table player, since this is de-emphasized for obvious reasons.

So I'd say there are lots of differences, but in a way I do agree with you, John. The fundamental skills are the same. Accurate shooting is accurate shooting, and CB control is CB control. It's the emphasis that's a little different.

-Andrew
 
Approach angles on tight position zones.

Example: Top pros get consistent position on some harder shots because they are able to properly "shape" a two rail angle into the proper approach angle towards a third rail that gives one a 8-12 inch target zone. A lot of bar tables play short.

If a table's rails play short and the person is not accustomed to this, they may come off short when trying this shot, and will be coming into the "thin" part of the position zone, and therefore have a 4-6 inch target zone.

No big deal, right? Well, if the table rolls off in the slightest, you can end up frozen to a ball instead of having position on it.

This is just one example. There are more. Bar tables have slightly different ways that you get to certain balls. Both Dave Matlock and Buddy Hall have played so much bar table pool, they probably don't even realize the differences any more, because it is ingrained to the way they play. They switch gears automatically.

Just watch Jesse Bowman play bar table 9 ball. he plays it different than most players I have seen, and I used to watch Glenn Atwell play all the time in the NW. Bigtruck has quite a few Jesse Bowman matches up on UStream. Check em out.

To my eye, (and I've played quite a bit on the 'box) Jesse just does things a little different than other good bar table players. He is VERY good at using a slow max inside english shot to "run through" an object ball near the rail, and manages the angle off the second rail better than any bar table player I have ever seen. This allows for some precise pattern play that gets him easy outs where other good players have to go up and down table.

Russ
 
excellent posts by Andrew and Russ

John,

Excellent posts by Andrew and Russ and even in your post you touch on the game being different quoting Matlock. A person should be able to adjust and play their best game on either table but it does take some time to adjust particularly if someone rarely plays on a bar box. Not only that, but someone's best game may not be suited to the bar box. You can largely dodge trouble using shape on the big track, often you have to open up the problem areas on the short track.

The difference in playing styles on each table means that although someone may play their best on either table, their best may not be equally suited to either table. Russ is right about there being a major adjustment for the cushions on each table too with most bar boxes but when talking about moving from the big Diamond to the little Diamond last night that doesn't apply in the case the commentators were talking about.

A top bar box player has an edge on a bar box. In my opinion, a top big table player has less of an edge over an equal bar box player on the big table. Again my opinion, but I feel nine foot tables are more "honest" and consistent and therefore easier to adjust to.

Hu
 
Bar table is different than a scaled-down 6-/7-footer

JB Cases said:
Ok, I had a disagreement in the TAR chat about this. Jeanette Lee was playing Larry Price and the announcers were constantly talking about how Jeanette wasn't a bar table player and if only she had some bar table experience and on and on.

I said that it's all the same. I said it's all about controlling the cueball and nothing else.

I say this as a player who has played bar tables and big tables for 30 years now.

I just don't see the difference at the higher level and I have had this discussion with people like Buddy Hall and David Matlock while driving down the road with both of them. Matlock told me that it's easier to play big tables because balls don't cluster up as much but other than that there is no difference with a normal cue ball. He did say that the game is different on the bar table with a big cue ball.

Buddy said a good player should be able to play his best on either table.

So what do you all think - tell me what the real concrete difference is from bar tables to big tables.
Click to expand...

John:

One thing I'm going to point out is a *very* key operative word here -- "bar" table. I.e. BAR table versus just "7 footer" or "6 footer." There is a difference, and those differences are:

1. Cue ball.
2. Side pockets.

Much has been said about the bar table's cue ball -- it's not the same size or weight or density as the object balls. Depending on the make/model of the table (e.g. Valley, Dynamo, etc.) the cue ball is either oversized ("grapefruit" ball), overweight (a full ounce heavier than the object balls -- e.g. Aramith Red Dot Dynamo), or magnetic (e.g. Aramith green-"S"-logoed ball).

A 6-/7-footer is just a scaled-down version of a 9-footer, which as we all know, has side pockets with apertures larger than their corner pockets. The side pockets on a "true" 6-/7-footer, like its 9-footer cousin, has side pockets that are up to an inch larger aperture than its corner pockets. A bar table's side pockets, on the other hand, are EXACTLY the same size as its corner pockets, making those side pockets a much smaller target when approaching them from an angle. Some consider the side pockets on a bar table to be "poison" -- to be avoided at all costs if one is not a "dead-eye Dick" straight shooter. Many a big table player's runs and games have ended by a not-accurate-enough shot at the bar table's side pockets, with the big table player scratching his/her head why he/she missed that routine shot into the side pocket that he/she would normally nail.

I know when I got back into pool after a 14-year hiatus (I'd put my cues away for 14 years to focus on my career), I oiled my squeaky wheels on the big table, and got back in stroke in the big table environment. After I felt comfortable with my stroke again, I was invited to join a bar table league. (This was several years ago.) I thought I'd string rack after rack on the bar table, thinking it was just a smaller version of the 9-footer, and I was playing well in the big table environment.

Boy, did I have a rude awakening coming to me! Even though the shots were easier on the bar table, I still had my head handed to me, because I was overrunning position with the heavy or magnetic cue ball, underestimated the difficulty of the bar table's undersized side pockets (when approached from an angle, that is), and just in general realized that I grossly underestimated the bar table environment. It took a bit of focused playing and practice, over a couple years, before I could confidently say I could make the switch and play at or near the same level between the two dissimilar environments.

I would go on record in saying that the type of play between big table environment and the bar table environment (notice I said bar table, and not 6-/7-footer) is very different. Many folks used to playing on both just don't realize the significant change in play and tactics they subconsciously make adjustments to, without even realizing it. That's probably why folks say they notice "no difference" between the two environments, when an outsider watching that same player switch between the two environments, notices the change in play and tactics.

Sure, the bar table's shots are easier (due to the decreased distance to the pocket). But the bar table -- by its very nature of being a bar table -- introduce other "monkey wrenches in the works" to offset the easier shots.

That's just my humble opinion, but hope it's helpful,
-Sean

P.S.: much of my experience above, in the differences between "standard" tables and the bar table, is echoed in the great work "The 8-Ball Bible" by R. Givens ( http://8-ballbible.com/ )
 
Solid input.

A very timely subject for me. In mid November I relocated just northwest of Nashville for a project. I have had limited play on a barbox for years and zero on a Diamond Smart table. There are two nine foot tables in town so all tourney's and action are predominently on boxes. The equipment is great. I took severe beatings the first month, I lived in a constant state of barely hooked. One place has 7' pro cut, very humbling. Much to my surprise is the angle adjustment from big to small. The pattern needs to be tighter with a lot less cue ball travel and the "pinch" shot is now in my arsenal. I was amazed at the Music City Open at all the play on thirty bar boxes. I used to think a big table player had an advantage over a bar boxer. That is incorrect. Safety play is actually more advisable on the box. I now believe that adjustment from small to big is easier. Also, everyone here plays strong...even the nits are tough...who'd a thunk it! New learning for an 'ol dog...exciting.:cool:
 
Too Funny Randy...

If Ms. Lee was playing perfectly the announcers would probably start talking about how much a good protective case is needed in bars much more than pool halls... and JB wouldn't have posted at all.

More than likely the announcers just needed something to sound SMART about and agree on.

randyg said:
Listing to the announcers may be the problem? SPF=randyg
Click to expand...
 
I find big tables easier to play. I don't have all the clusters & tight traffic like a bar box, so my position can be a lil more relaxed & sloppy and i'm still good. On a bar box, I have to be dead nuts on my position EVERY shot, not just critical shots. Aside from that, pool is pool. Another thing to note is actually pocketing balls on a bar box is easier for me. Every shot is a short shot. I can stroke looser & freeball. I gotta be a lil tighter & smoother stroking on a big table. Maybe it's a trade off & you are correct that there is no difference in the end. But to me, bar boxes seem tougher.
 
different skill levels

as we all saw in the hustler when fast eddie first got on the billiard table he got whupped, he then made adjustments and went on to win. i know, i know its just a story, BUT players at a higher level can a change their game as the situation calls. so bar box or 9 by 5 most of them can still play.

different deal when my buddies come to my house, there are no pool halls around and all of them play in the tournaments and league on bar boxes most of the time. my table is a 4 by 8 brunswick.

nearly all of them play better on bar tables than on my 4 by 8 brunswick.
 
Methinks it's mostly similar, but a bit different

Stop shots - IMHO, on a bar table with buckets, move the cueball as little as humanly possible. Stop shots are your best friend.

Clusters - on 9's, the pros (at least those on tv) seem more in favor of just getting on the right side of the ball and playing a safe. On a bar box, it's much easier to go into clusters and due to the shorter distances and you gotta be confident in breaking up balls if you wanna run racks

I guess I actually agree with the announcers - it is a bit of a different game.
 
Experience does count, especially on a wavy table with dead rubber. Throw in the bad chalk, the cheap cue ball, having to jack up in certain areas of many small bars....and things could get ugly. The better the small table conditions are(diamond) the better the big table player usually does.

The best bar box players I have seen are the straight pool players, center ballers. They know how to deal with the clusters in tight quarters.
 
Announcers serve a purpose, and that is to entertain and keep and audience. I recall many year ago folk going to the L.A. Dodgers Live games, and listen to the radio guy with their radio in hand because the radio guy was more interesting than the park announcer.
 
huge difference

Barbox game is more difficult to adjust to.

Like everyone has already stated:
More clusters
Better cue ball control
Some position shots have to be shot differently
Small zones

Shinning example:
This year at the barbox chmps. Glenn Atwell took 1st, 2nd, 2nd. Glenn plays more barbox pool then anyone who showed up. Here in Portland OR there are only a couple pool rooms and finding a trouny on 9' tables is like finding a dodo bird. Everything here is barbox pool, and more and more bars are putting in diamond barbox tables over valley barbox tables. We are starting to get really good on those things. It was also a portland area team who won a team national chmps (TAP or VENA).

Don't get me wrong, Glenn and play a mean game on a 9' table, but he is not thought of as one of the best in the country. But on a barbox he is always talked about as one of the best.

cbi
 
Almost all of my competitive play at this point is on bar boxes, but I have an OS 8ft at home. I have to be constantly aware that stringing racks at the house doesn't necessarily equate to the same thing on the bar box. Often they don't break well. The shape zones are smaller & the angles thru them are tighter. You have to be extra cautious about speed when you break out a cluster. Some of the bar tables have good Simonis on them, and you have to play a lot more kill spin shots.
When moving from a bar box to a 9 footer, one of the things I find takes a bit of adjustment is the difference in results for given spin to speed ratios due to the extra distance the cue ball travels to & between rails. Another is the "natural peripheral vision" adjustment. When you play mostly on a bar box, for instance, you kinda "feel" the angle for a bank or cut shot based on the relative environment size. Going to the bigger table requires a conscious awareness of the larger proportions. I practice one rail banks with an "instinctive drill" a lot. Line balls up on the string, lay down the cue ball, and bank the first ball. Pick up the CB, lay it down & bank the next ball. Bank to your left & right, sides & corners. I don't aim them - I feel them, and I hit them quick & crisp. That's the point - it becomes instinctive.
Your instincts include the size of your environment.
 
Put a world class snooker player on a bar box and watch. Put a world class bar box player on a snooker table and watch.

The difficult transition from one table to the other will be pretty obvious. That is taking the the difference to the extreme but certainly shows there is a BIG difference. From there it is a matter of degree.

The comment as it relates to JL's playing is valid.
 
Underclocked said:
Put a world class snooker player on a bar box and watch. Put a world class bar box player on a snooker table and watch.

The difficult transition from one table to the other will be pretty obvious. That is taking the the difference to the extreme but certainly shows there is a BIG difference. From there it is a matter of degree.

The comment as it relates to JL's playing is valid.
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You know that she won, right? Apparently, she was able to adjust, I heard she won either one or two sets, 9-ahead, getting the 8 in 10 Ball and one game on the wire.
 
No, I didn't know she won but I'll take your word for it. I don't think that lessens the validity of my comments. A great player won't look like a rookie going in either direction but neither will they play as well as they do on the more familiar table. Table dimensions and ball size/weight may not have much affect on pure shot-making talent, but they will certainly impact positioning and strategies.

ps: I've played Matlock on both bar tables and snooker tables. I didn't like the bar table action and he didn't like the snooker.
 
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