Bar table question...

JasonS

JasonS

jason-sadler.com
Silver Member
Is there any particular reason why it seems like I almost always miss cue whenever I power draw on a bar box? It's rather funny from the other side, but it gets really old. I was expressing my frustrations to a buddy of mine about a bar table's size in that I can never get a proper run-out from the break and he says "play better shape" and thats obvious lol, so don't get me wrong when I ask about the draw shots... Sometimes my only shot is to draw the length of the table or more to break up a cluster or whatever to get out, but I almost always launch it into people's stools lol.

I use the same cue and same chalk when I practice power drawing on a regular sized table, the only difference I can think of is the cue ball. On a standard table I'm either using the red circle or the 6 red dot CB and, I'm not gonna lie, I do miss cue 1 out of 5 times or so, but on the bar boxes its like 4.5 out of 5.

I don't really HAVE to draw, but it would be nice to understand why bar tables (mainly valleys) give me such a hard time. Maybe it's just me haha.

edit: when I say "mainly valleys" I mean I mainly play on valleys... not trying to diss valley :).
 
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If you're playing with the "big ball" that could explain it. Some tables have magnetized cueballs that are the same size as the others.
 
I believe all the tables are magnetic around here so I'm fairly certain that the cue balls are standard size.

Are the surfaces different? Maybe the magnetic balls don't want to move easily due to increased inertia and the chalk's gripping point (limits of adhesion or effective friction or whatever) isn't great enough causing the tip to slide off regardless of the amount of chalk that was applied. If that's the case then a softer tip would be good?
 
You quite honestly just might be trying too hard! Most bar boxes have that slower cloth, and you are thinking about that when you stroke. Extra adrenaline in the heat of battle also might play a part. Have someone watch your form, see if you are raising up on the forward stroke, or elevating your elbow at the time of impact.
 
take it easy

a lot of people try and overhit a ball when they're trying to draw it. I'm not saying this is what you're doing, but it sounds like it.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to draw the full length of a bar table (although if you have to do that then I question the pattern you are running).

Try loosening up your grip on your backhand. I know this may sound a little weird, but move your bridge hand a little closer to the cue ball and hold the cue with your back two fingers and thumb only. This helps give you more follow through because you're closer to the cue ball. ONLY FOR DRAW SHOTS
 
Unless the bar box has Simonis or a similar cloth I don't even try to power draw. Bar box pool on that napped felt is a completely different game than tournament pool conditions.
 
The only time I miscue is with the green 'S' valley cueball. It seems greasy compared to any other cue ball.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
 
I bet the cue ball is bigger or heavier, so its easier to accidentally scoop the ball. Aim a half or even a full tip higher, and settle for less draw. Also make a conscious effort to use alot of cue speed, and follow through.

JasonS said:
Is there any particular reason why it seems like I almost always miss cue whenever I power draw on a bar box? It's rather funny from the other side, but it gets really old. I was expressing my frustrations to a buddy of mine about a bar table's size in that I can never get a proper run-out from the break and he says "play better shape" and thats obvious lol, so don't get me wrong when I ask about the draw shots... Sometimes my only shot is to draw the length of the table or more to break up a cluster or whatever to get out, but I almost always launch it into people's stools lol.

I use the same cue and same chalk when I practice power drawing on a regular sized table, the only difference I can think of is the cue ball. On a standard table I'm either using the red circle or the 6 red dot CB and, I'm not gonna lie, I do miss cue 1 out of 5 times or so, but on the bar boxes its like 4.5 out of 5.

I don't really HAVE to draw, but it would be nice to understand why bar tables (mainly valleys) give me such a hard time. Maybe it's just me haha.

edit: when I say "mainly valleys" I mean I mainly play on valleys... not trying to diss valley :).
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I can think of a couple of reasons:

-oversize CB that is heavier than the other balls
-the Valley magnetic ball (same size as others) is heavier than a red circle ball
-fuzzy or dirty cloth, compared to clean, smooth Simonis cloth at the poolhall
-slick Valley magnetic ball on worn cloth

The last one is kinda unique. what happens is that you have a heavier CB, that is slick, possibly due to hand chalk and worn cloth, that is also somewhat slick, causing the cb to spin in place and not draw well. The cb doesnt bite into the cloth.

All of the above may cause you to try to put extra juice on the CB to get action, causing a miscue.

That my best guesses.


Eric
 
Well, this isn't an answer for you, but...

Leave yourself an angle. Draw is very rarely a good move for position.

-s
 
pooltableproCP said:
You quite honestly just might be trying too hard! Most bar boxes have that slower cloth, and you are thinking about that when you stroke. Extra adrenaline in the heat of battle also might play a part. Have someone watch your form, see if you are raising up on the forward stroke, or elevating your elbow at the time of impact.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about that actually... Usually it takes a little more force to move the CB around. On the fast equipment I'm used to playing on I can use a soft stroke and easily move the CB up and down. Perhaps when I adjust to slow equipment my muscles adapt and to mimic what I normally see as far as draw speed/power and I end up just nailing the crap out of it, thus causing the CB to eject into the audience. I can place my CB behind the first diamond and place my OB behind the first diamond on the other end so that its straight in and I can draw one full length on a 9ft diamond, but using the same stroke on the bar boxes the spin on the CB just evaporates half way there almost. So yeah, I probably end up hitting it just way too hard to compensate for slow cloth.

I'm trying to just understand or figure out slower/smaller equipment I guess. Angles don't change a lot so my kick safes transfer over well (not to mention its hard to miss a kick on 7x3.5 anyway) and my shot-making is great, but keeping the CB in control or even on the table is tough!

My team plays tonight and I'll take more time than usual between shots and really buckle down and position for angled shots and stop shots... That's what I should be doing regardless of equipment, but more so when I haven't got the option to really open up my stroke.
 
Thats why they call it a bar box. An at the bar maybe just maybe you had the one or two many beers. In my bar days I had a hard time drawing whitey. Thats when I had a stroke. :smile:
 
steev said:
Well, this isn't an answer for you, but...

Leave yourself an angle. Draw is very rarely a good move for position.

-s
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree... When I've placed high or won any of the local 9-ball tournaments I have never really had to use a lot of draw or extreme english, but that was because I had adjusted to the speed of the tables and could play the natural angles which made running out very easy.

Going to bar equipment, though, I end up getting straight in on shots a lot more often because the CB just doesn't react the same whether its the cloth or the rails so I'd have draw to get back in line only to be in worse shape because the CB would only move a couple inches lol and then to try and adjust I just end up scooping it off the table.

But like I said I'll have to focus more on angles and stop shots... Im normally "focus, focus, focus" but in a bar I'm "focus, beer, beer" so I'll just have to buckle down.
 
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A little tip about trying to draw on strange tables especially bar tables with not so perfect playing conditions.
We old timers liked to slightly elevate the butt of our cue but very slightly and not enough to effect the aim. Doing this you strike the bigger part of the cue ball but with a downward motion, this helps to minimize the miscues. The term we used for this was called a false draw. Using this technique gives you confidence to put down a good stroke. Of course this takes practice because your stroke has to shorten up a bit for this to work.
 
A couple of things that I hope will help:

1) If you are *frequently* requiring table length draw, then you probably need some work on your position play, and recognizing better angles and shape.

2) I have played on MANY bar tables with all sorts of cue balls. My experience is that it is WAY harder to golf a heavy and/or oversized ball off the table. Far more likely is a regular miscue. However, even the crappy bar table cue balls in most bar boxs have low quality composition, and the surface gets pitted, dirty, and otherwise crapped up quickly. The green logo Aramith ball, which is touted as the best bar table cue ball, is no better in this regard. Very low quality surface, hence very dirty, pitted, etc. This is going to prevent that ball from sliding along the cloth as easily, and thus friction will rip away a lot of your backspin. Draw will be more difficult in this situation. I think the comments about the slow cloth are, to be honest, irrelevant. I dislike playing on anything but Simonis, but not because it impacts my ability to draw the ball.

3) I was "into" the power draw shot ever since I saw it. I think it looks cool and is extremely satisfying. When I was a younger player, I tended to overuse draw because I liked how it looked and felt, and. well, because I *could*. Because of this, I have studied the draw shot. I too have at one time had problems with golfing the ball off the table. What I came to realize is that 98% of the time when this happens, it is attributable to one or two things or both. *Jumping up myself* or *tightening my grip*. I will say that the jumping up thing is almost *always* the problem. This is often accompanied by the tightening of the grip. The grip tightening alone without jumping up rarely causes the severe miscue. This becomes a downward spiral when I see the miscue. I then begin to worry about it happening again, and so the nervous anxiety makes me flinch and jump up, and usually tighten my grip. Then it is even more likely to happen! The key is to make sure you have done all your other stance things the same way, and then STAY STILL when you stroke. Especially make sure that your head does not move. Have a friend check it out. Even flinching and raising your head like 2 inches can be all it takes (because of course your shoulder and upper back will also move). Also, really focus on the tightness of your grip. You can't *try* to make the draw happen, you have to *let* it happen.

4) On a bar box, remember that because it is smaller, a far higher percentage of shots will involve positioning your cue over a rail. Because on average, the cueball is often closer to a rail, the angle of your stick will be greater (meaning the elevation of the butt.) If you place a ball on the first diamond away from the end rail, lets say, on each of a 9' and barbox table, the minimum cue elevation on the bar box will be greater than on the 9'. While this isn't necessarily a problem, it certainly would explain a difference between the two tables and how you address the cue ball.


Food for thought, I hope it helps you!

KMRUNOUT
 
JasonS said:
Going to bar equipment, though, I end up getting straight in on shots a lot more often because the CB just doesn't react the same whether its the cloth or the rails so I'd have draw to get back in line only to be in worse shape because the CB would only move a couple inches lol...
Click to expand...

Keep in mind while playing on the barbox: shots are easier! You don't need _good_ shape, just a makeable shot. Much more important is getting that angle to the next shot. Sacrifice a little position to guarantee your run keeps going.

-s
 
KMRUNOUT said:
3) I was "into" the power draw shot ever since I saw it. I think it looks cool and is extremely satisfying. When I was a younger player, I tended to overuse draw because I liked how it looked and felt, and. well, because I *could*. Because of this, I have studied the draw shot. I too have at one time had problems with golfing the ball off the table. What I came to realize is that 98% of the time when this happens, it is attributable to one or two things or both. *Jumping up myself* or *tightening my grip*. I will say that the jumping up thing is almost *always* the problem. This is often accompanied by the tightening of the grip. The grip tightening alone without jumping up rarely causes the severe miscue. This becomes a downward spiral when I see the miscue. I then begin to worry about it happening again, and so the nervous anxiety makes me flinch and jump up, and usually tighten my grip. Then it is even more likely to happen! The key is to make sure you have done all your other stance things the same way, and then STAY STILL when you stroke. Especially make sure that your head does not move. Have a friend check it out. Even flinching and raising your head like 2 inches can be all it takes (because of course your shoulder and upper back will also move). Also, really focus on the tightness of your grip. You can't *try* to make the draw happen, you have to *let* it happen.

4) On a bar box, remember that because it is smaller, a far higher percentage of shots will involve positioning your cue over a rail. Because on average, the cueball is often closer to a rail, the angle of your stick will be greater (meaning the elevation of the butt.) If you place a ball on the first diamond away from the end rail, lets say, on each of a 9' and barbox table, the minimum cue elevation on the bar box will be greater than on the 9'. While this isn't necessarily a problem, it certainly would explain a difference between the two tables and how you address the cue ball.
Click to expand...

Very well said! I'm not so much a novice to the fundamentals of the game since I've luckily had a pro guide me since almost day one free of charge with free table time (thanks Justin!)... But being into the game for only a couple years now it is very easy to snap into bad habits. My game is a C at best when I'm anxious or nervous. Ultimately I would love to play without fear or worry, but thats another thread lol.

#4 is something I've never really noticed. I will have to keep that in mind!
 
JasonS said:
Very well said! I'm not so much a novice to the fundamentals of the game since I've luckily had a pro guide me since almost day one free of charge with free table time (thanks Justin!)... But being into the game for only a couple years now it is very easy to snap into bad habits. My game is a C at best when I'm anxious or nervous. Ultimately I would love to play without fear or worry, but thats another thread lol.

#4 is something I've never really noticed. I will have to keep that in mind!
Click to expand...

Great Jason! Maybe that will help you. Like I said, I got pretty into the draw stroke, and still think its one of my greatest strengths. On a 9' with Simonis, I can put the object ball 1 diamond away from the corner pocket, cue ball on the head string, and draw all the way back to the rail and maybe 1/2 way back up the table, or place the cueball near the object ball and get 2 table lengths...that ought to be WAY more than enough in any situation ha ha!!

BUT...I later realized that control and accuracy, and certainly consistency was far more important. I have some great drills for developing an accurate draw stroke. The key is to generate the power you need-no more, no less. For example being able to accurately draw 4 feet is much better than being able to draw either 6 inches or 12 feet. Let me know if you would like me to share my draw drill. Also, if there is any way you can get video of yourself trying these shots, it will likely reveal if you are making any of the mistakes I outlines in my previous post. It sure did for me.

I'd be pumped if my suggestions help you!

KMRUNOUT
 
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