BCA Hall of Fame 2008 nominations?

[jay helfert]

How can you deny Pat Fleming being nominated in the meritorious service section of this ballot? In my opinion,not because I worked with him for 20 years but because I know him for the person that he is.His relentless efforts in keeping our game in the eye of the public for the past 20 plus years should be recognized for what it is,not for some self serving reason. Pat has been struggling financially for the better part of this time but has not allowed that to deter him in his vision. Pat is one of if not the finest person in pool period, everything he has done has been done in the most dignified fashion. If he has fallen short in any criteria for this award I would like to know where.

Bill Incardona

Tap Tap to that Billy. I feel the same way about the man. And he prefers to remain in the shadows for the most part, never taking any glory for what he has achieved. Pat remains a most humble man, seemingly without ego.

You may not know this, but Pat was once one of the top 14.1 players in the world. He is a true 100 ball runner and has done in it competition, not practice. I know that when the tournament directors (Scott, Steve and myself) would get together for our own private soirees, Mr. Fleming was BARRED!

 

[Terry Ardeno]

You may not know this, but Pat was once one of the top 14.1 players in the world. He is a true 100 ball runner and has done in it competition, not practice.

Pat Fleming WON the 1979 Eastern States 14.1 Championship. These fields were world class also, past winners were Cicero Murphy, Ray Martin, Steve Mizerak, etc. That's the type of field he won over....
Pat's highest personal high run is 209!

 

[Blackjack]

Pat Fleming WON the 1979 Eastern States 14.1 Championship. These fields were world class also, past winners were Cicero Murphy, Ray Martin, Steve Mizerak, etc. That's the type of field he won over....
Pat's highest personal high run is 209!

Pat is a great player - I loved watching the way he would attack the break ball - he's done a lot for pool and IMO he is very deserving of the HOF...

Now Terry - what about Little David Howard? 2 US Opens (1982 & 1986) and arguably one of the best breakers in history -

Here's some more titles he has won... this list is INCOMPLETE

David Howard

Like Louie Roberts, I never hear his name mentioned for the Hall Of Fame - just wondering why... I played this guy many times back in the day and he was a MONSTER!

 

[jay helfert]

Pat Fleming WON the 1979 Eastern States 14.1 Championship. These fields were world class also, past winners were Cicero Murphy, Ray Martin, Steve Mizerak, etc. That's the type of field he won over....
Pat's highest personal high run is 209!

He just did beat Trudough's high run. And that's saying something!
Everyone knows Trudough can really go. He runs those two and threes like they are nothing!

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Pat is a great player - I loved watching the way he would attack the break ball - he's done a lot for pool and IMO he is very deserving of the HOF...

Now Terry - what about Little David Howard? 2 US Opens (1982 & 1986) and arguably one of the best breakers in history -

Here's some more titles he has won... this list is INCOMPLETE

David Howard

Like Louie Roberts, I never hear his name mentioned for the Hall Of Fame - just wondering why... I played this guy many times back in the day and he was a MONSTER!

David Howard is like Tom Jennings, they just flat disappeared from the pool scene almost overnight.
You are so right about "Little" David. Anybody who wins the U.S. Open 9 ball Championship twice IS a monster. In my opinion, he was light years ahead skill wise of Jennings, who was a 14.1 specialist.

David is well liked in pooldom. I always wondered why he stopped competing.

Anyway, to guess an answer at your question as to why his name is never brought up, probably because he is so behind the scenes in pool right now that many / most of whoever votes don't remember him. That plus the fact that there are so many, many players even MORE qualified for the HOF. St Louie, Don Willis, Billy Incardona, Grady Mathews, Cliff Joyner, Keith McCready, Richie Florence, Jersey Red, Cornbread, Gary Spaeth, Bugs Rucker and dozens more great players will probably never make it in. Now that Efren has been inducted, Jose Parica has to be on deck. Hopkins (like Earl) should have been inducted on the first ballot.

***The BCA was so political in the past. If you rented a booth at their trade show, you were a "voting member" and some of these people are really just fine businessmen who have no love or knowledge of pool and its history, its just the business they are in. Having some of these guys vote for who gets in the HOF would be like me voting for who should be in the Algebra HOF. I have nooo idea who the great algebra stars were. And sad to say, if you said the names of some of our legendary players to the suits who run the BCA, you would get the same look as someone like me trying to do calculas. They just don't know. It's their business rather than their passion.
I think the pool fans should be able to vote each year on who gets in.

 

[vagabond]

'I' s have it so should pat be inducted into HOF.Three cheers to pat.Hurray

 

[Terry Ardeno]

He just did beat Trudough's high run. And that's saying something!
Everyone knows Trudough can really go. He runs those two and threes like they are nothing!

I have a tape of Minnesota Fats playing in those "Legends" tournaments in the early 1980s. Charlie Ursitti was the ref (He's also one of the world's foremost pool historians and a great guy as well). Anyway, Fats is stalling while it's his turn. He's gabbing on and on to the crowd about how he runs a gazillion balls. ESPN is taping this and it's like dead time while he goes on about his high run. After telling him over & over "Fatty, it's your shot", Charlie goes up to him and says "OK, now make one in a row!"

 

[MikeJanis]

Also for promoting our sport - Joe Kerr - Pat Fleming - and definitely PEG LEDMAN.

Since Joe Kerr is still kicking I think we should nominate him so he can appreciate it before he is gone.

Mj

PS.. Joe helped me back in the days when I was just starting out. The Akron Open was my 1st real professional event that I attended.

 

[PETARD]

can't answer the question but.............

I see that the BCA HOF induction(s) will be in Charlotte at the Trade Show in June. I don't recall having heard anything about the nominees or balloting, and I couldn't find anything on the BCA website. Rumors, anyone?

since all ignored your question, my info suggests that the nominations are being submitted now but the entire process seems too secret for me. i think that with all the possible players who should get in there are also the pat flemings and my personal favorite, jerry breiseth, the best teacher on the planet. in addition, jeanette lee, allison fisher, allen hopkins, ronnie allen,........................

the list goes on but i hope the rules for nomination are spelled out someplace and factor in some mathematics as the candidate list grows over time and the rules should grow with it. i have been to the one pocket hall of fame dinner at the dcc the last 3-4 years and many of the inductees are dead. why not let the qualified enjoy their spot in history while still young to enjoy it and benefit from it. who has done more than jeanette lee to publicize the sport? allison has dominated the ladies, hopkins has done it all, ronnie allen is getting old, change the rules assuming there are soom to make this a people award along with key members of the pool community.

this is a great sport and we need to catch up with other sports.

petard

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Johnny Archer will eventually be enshrined; too many nine ball tournament wins to keep him out of the HOF. Allen Hopkins should make it and Jose Parica's record should be looked at carefully and maybe he should be voted in.
Ronnie Allen? Why? He doesn't have the tournament credentials to warrant enshrinement.
Anyone read Diliberto's book, "Road Player"? You never knew when Ronnie was dumping someone.
Back room money games are not part of actual history; unlike tournament statistics, they're only folklore.
Whereas much of it is truth, a lot is fable as well.

 

[Ron Cook]

HOF Induction of Dan Louie, has my vote!

I see that the BCA HOF induction(s) will be in Charlotte at the Trade Show in June. I don't recall having heard anything about the nominees or balloting, and I couldn't find anything on the BCA website. Rumors, anyone?

Hands down, Mr. Dan Louie, this man has all the qualities of a great player, he has won a hundred or more local tournaments, and won a couple of US Major titles and has placed well in the money in numerious major tournaments accross the country. Dan has the character of a real champion and gentleman, and yes, Dan Louie you are the man!!

Without a doubt, he is a real croud pleaser and I believe if we get behind him on AZ Billiards he would represent the HOF as a man of real character. Even when he was going through some tough battles with his kidneys he keep playing and represented the pool world well.

Most recent, with his visit to the hospital for exploratroy surgery he was playing pool right up to having to forefeit his match to a hospital visit which tried to slow him down, but I heard he is back up and playing and I thank the guy upstairs Dan is still with us!

DAN LOUIE has my VOTE for the HOF Induction for year 2008 !!!!!!!!
(There is 8 of them!!!!!!!! for 2008 & Dan.).

 

[huckster]

Johnny Archer will eventually be enshrined; too many nine ball tournament wins to keep him out of the HOF. Allen Hopkins should make it and Jose Parica's record should be looked at carefully and maybe he should be voted in.
Ronnie Allen? Why? He doesn't have the tournament credentials to warrant enshrinement.
Anyone read Diliberto's book, "Road Player"? You never knew when Ronnie was dumping someone.
Back room money games are not part of actual history; unlike tournament statistics, they're only folklore.
Whereas much of it is truth, a lot is fable as well.

If you don't think "the original fast eddie" Ronnie Allen should be in the BCA Hall then why even bother enshrining anyone. For over 25 years No One was favored against him playing one pocket. If you think he was a one trick poney I have a video somewhere of him running 125 and out first inning of a major 14.1 tourney. During the late 60's and early 70's he was a bonified master on the small track. Ronnie Allen was the real deal. He would torture quite a few esteemed players that are already in. I hope with voting members like Mike Janis maybe someday the BCA HOF will actually induct on merit an achievment instead of politics. RA for the HOF

 

[rossaroni]

If you don't think "the original fast eddie" Ronnie Allen should be in the BCA Hall then why even bother enshrining anyone. For over 25 years No One was favored against him playing one pocket. If you think he was a one trick poney I have a video somewhere of him running 125 and out first inning of a major 14.1 tourney. During the late 60's and early 70's he was a bonified master on the small track. Ronnie Allen was the real deal. He would torture quite a few esteemed players that are already in. I hope with voting members like Mike Janis maybe someday the BCA HOF will actually induct on merit an achievment instead of politics. RA for the HOF

I think Danny was saying that it is hard to induct someone when they don't have the tournament wins. The BCA wants to promote a clean image of pool and are not going to be quick to induct a life-long gambler or back room player. I agree with you too Huckster- everyone knows Ronnie was a stong cold champion, but I think it is going to be tough to get players like Ronnie inducted. At least we have the One Pocket HOF, and they look at players back room adventures-something that the BCA doesn't do.

It's kind of like inducting a street basketball player who beat many NBA players. People might know that they had superstar potential in the NBA, but they are still not going to get inducted for what people know. Most pool players know Ronnie, Denny Searcy, Keith, Rags were some of the best players in the world, but what possible creditials do these players have that the BCA would care about? It's ashame but tournament wins is the main thing that is looked at, and many of these players don't have enough to be considered by the powers that be at the BCA.

Tournaments were not very abundent back then and many players had to gamble. When one great road player and gambler said that the money that one top player made in a year would not keep him in whiskey, I don't think he was lying. Huckster, I am sure you have heard this statement before, because it came from you grandfather-another one of the very, very talented players who could have made the HOF from tournamnet achievements, but chose a different road.

 

[1pocket]

I think Danny was saying that it is hard to induct someone when they don't have the tournament wins. The BCA wants to promote a clean image of pool and are not going to be quick to induct a life-long gambler or back room player. I agree with you too Huckster- everyone knows Ronnie was a stong cold champion, but I think it is going to be tough to get players like Ronnie inducted. At least we have the One Pocket HOF, and they look at players back room adventures-something that the BCA doesn't do.

It's kind of like inducting a street basketball player who beat many NBA players. People might know that they had superstar potential in the NBA, but they are still not going to get inducted for what people know. Most pool players know Ronnie, Denny Searcy, Keith, Rags where some of the best players in the world, but what possible creditials do these players have that the BCA would care about? It's ashame but tournament wins is the main thing that is looked at, and many of these players don't have enough to be considered by the powers that be at the BCA.

Tournaments were not very abundent back then and many players had to gamble. When one great road player and gambler said that the money that one top player made in a year would not keep him in whiskey, I don't think he was lying. Huckster, I am sure you have heard this statement before, because it came from you grandfather-another one of the very, very talented players who could have made the HOF from tournamnet achievements, but chose a different road.

Thanks all, for the kind words about the One Pocket HOF. With our emphasis on the action side of the game, the One Pocket HOF does make for an excellent companion/contrast to the BCA HOF. It's actually good for them this way, too, because they can keep their slate "clean". Although we still are called "One Pocket" HOF, we have grown to pick up Banks and "Lifetime Pool in Action" honors, so that we can more fully cover the action side of the game.

Long live action!!

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Why honor the "hustling" or even action side of the game? Has it really done that much for pool, or has it stained it to the point of a permanent mark?
Sure, the stories are exciting to listen to and it adds a mystique to the game that other sports don't have, but has it really been beneficial to the overall image of pool and therefore to the ability for someone to legitimately make a living as a profession?
I believe that the HOF should also include certain intrinsic qualities such as integrity and sportsmanship. And I believe it does include these qualities to a certain degree, and this is why it took Earl Strickland so many years to become inducted.
I'm sorry, but did the man in question have either of these good qualities?
Pat Fleming I do believe deserves consideration. Pat is a good guy and has contributed immeasurably to the sport.
By the way, I believe Grady Mathews has actually more verifiable tournament victories in all games than Ronnie Allen.

Danny K

 

[1pocket]

Why honor the "hustling" or even action side of the game? Has it really done that much for pool, or has it stained it to the point of a permanent mark?
Sure, the stories are exciting to listen to and it adds a mystique to the game that other sports don't have, but has it really been beneficial to the overall image of pool and therefore to the ability for someone to legitimately make a living as a profession?
...

Danny K

Okay, let's disqualify all the players who have done significant gambling and/or hustling over the years. Now lets disqualify all the tournaments and tournament promoters that have permitted or maybe even encouraged a little action on the side. Better also make sure we eliminate any tainted money that flows into the sport. Since we've done this, of course we also have to eliminate all the fans of the game that are especially interested in the action side of pool. Alright, now we're getting somewhere!


Hey, where'd everybody go???



As old as pool/billiards are, there have always been two legs that support the game/sport -- and we just eliminated one. To be perfectly honest, how many of us would remain interested if pool only stood on that one, albeit wholesome, leg?



Of course, if your own sense of values makes it difficult for you personally to offer any 'honor' to any player or event or promoter (or cue maker) with any ties to hustling, by all means, you can elect to step aside when it comes to that possibility, and I am willing to tip my hat to you, as a man who stands by his convictions...

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

If, say we were rid of the gambling, underworld part of pool and, like golf the image of pool were one more of honesty and integrity, where the players call fouls on themselves and are concerned about reputations on a global scale instead of winning money dishonesty. And by dishonesty I mean showing a weaker speed and leading someone on in order to "steal" the cash. Or, in Ronnie's case dumping a backer in order to win.

Might this new image be in more congruency with the general public, whose values more mirror those of the golfer, bowler or tennis player? And wouldn't they be more interested in supporting a sport that reflects their own moral and spiritual values?

 

[Pushout]

Back room money games are not part of actual history; unlike tournament statistics, they're only folklore.
Whereas much of it is truth, a lot is fable as well.

I have to ask, just how much that you think of as history is true? The Civil War is a great example. Growing up in the North, I heard only one side of the story. Having now lived in the South for over ten years, I really wonder if what I always thought I knew about the war was true. How about Viet Nam?
How about what the government tells you about anything do you think is true? Golf has it's gambling folklore also and it still exists, it's just not played up since golf became "acceptable". Who are you to judge what's true and what's not? The hustlers and gamblers are part of pool's history. Accept it.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I KNOW That I Didn't Dream It

Somewhere in the dark recesses of my addled old brain, I seem to remember a story/post (maybe in RSB) about the BCA changing locations and office staff. I think that I remember the person writng the story as mentioning that the new office crew and people deciding on someone's induction into the HOF rested on the shoulders of a group of clueless young uns (who could barely name any of the players and hadn't heard of most of the older players)..
Does anyone else remember this story, it's author or it's details ? Bob Jewett ? PJ ? Any old RSBers ?

Doug

 

[jrhendy]

If, say we were rid of the gambling, underworld part of pool and, like golf the image of pool were one more of honesty and integrity, where the players call fouls on themselves and are concerned about reputations on a global scale instead of winning money dishonesty. And by dishonesty I mean showing a weaker speed and leading someone on in order to "steal" the cash. Or, in Ronnie's case dumping a backer in order to win.

There is probably more gambling, hustling and larcency in golf than in most pool rooms in the country. If pool would have wised up and showed the real world of pool many years ago, warts & all, it would have been a lot farther along than it is now. Instead they tried to camoflage it and water down the characters that make up pool. Poker got lucky and many of the players that used to be considered a step below a pool player are rich celebrities now because they let them be themselves when showing them to the world. I spent the day with Ronnie yesterday and he is still a character and one of the greatest players that played our game. He still draws a crowd & entertains where ever he goes. IMO he should be in the hall. I know you are a good guy and care about pool, but if you look down on gambling you may never see the other side of it. Pool is and always will be pool. Gambling is a big part of it and most of the people who are in the hall gambled along the path to get there. John Henderson.