Bca vs Apa

[Marie's husband]

Maries Husband, you are correct, you don't have all the info. And I don't either, so take this as it's intended....

Each APA Territory has seperate Divisions. Each Division plays four sessions a year. In our League, the first and second place teams get a payout at the end of each session. The session we won it was around $800 per team, and $400 per team for second place. Yes, split up to 8 ways, depending on how many players on that team. Thats $4800 per year paid out in our 12-14 team division alone.

Our League has a bunch of Divisions, I don't even know the number. There are 7 in our half of the League, so I assume there is a similar number in the other half. (Our league covers most of the state of Maine.) 14 individual divisions, getting those payouts, four times a year. $4800 per division x 14 divisions = $67,200. Per year. Before anything to do with Vegas. In little old Maine.

Then, at our State Vegas qualifying tournament, each team that is there gets paid for each round they survive, including simply making it to the tournament. It wasn't quite as much for us as winning the league, but I think it was around $250 per team, per round (four rounds). Plus the chance for the Vegas trip.

Our League sends 7 teams (4 for 8-ball, 3 for 9-ball) plus a couple of scotch doubles teams, and a couple of singles competitors. That is substantial, as well.

So to summarize this a bit, yes, the APA is in business to make money. But there are payouts at the local level, so it isn't quite as cut and dried as your calculations seem.

And yes, I'm sure there are Leagues that don't pay back as much as our does. But I bet there are others that pay as much, or maybe more. Which brings us back to my original statement about checking things out at each individuals location to see what is what. Rather than information disseminated on a message board.

Justadub,

Thank you for the information on how your area and state APA is run and like I said, I was only going off the APA website and they dont list anything about regions or have links to regions/states.

Also, you came up with pay outs of over 67k which looks good, but how much money did the members actually contribute from there weekly fees for that entire year?

In my guestimate, you had 14 divisions, each division has 10, 4 player teams, weekly fees are probably $10 per player. each session last 10 weeks this is what it would look like.

So thats 140 teams a week playing, which means 560 players at $10 a player for total of $5600 a week for 10 weeks, $56000 a session and $224000 a year for your area.

If I am way off then please let me know.

 

[TimKrazyMon]

Assuming that you are correct and if I am using Marie's Husbans info, then the APA takes in 4.5 million and pays out 1.5 million for the National Championships. That leaves 3 mil to off set the costs of operating a league that requires 30 + staff, (I assume that is close) operating expenses, office space, travel and accomodation to Vegas for all the staff twice a year (april nationals and august nationals), riviera hotel convention costs, sponsorship of the WPBA and junior programs and everything else that I am missing.

Not a ton of money left over at the end of it all.

My point to everyone is that by my calculations, using the information provided by the same people who slam the APA , is that the APA is not robbing players like everyone thinks they are. Do they, as a business make some money, yes I hope so because i love playing and a stron APA business means that it will be hear in the future.

Leagueguy

Correction, they take in $4.5M in memberships + the 20% from every franchise.

 

[justadub]

Justadub,

Thank you for the information on how your area and state APA is run and like I said, I was only going off the APA website and they dont list anything about regions or have links to regions/states.

Also, you came up with pay outs of over 67k which looks good, but how much money did the members actually contribute from there weekly fees for that entire year?

In my guestimate, you had 14 divisions, each division has 10, 4 player teams, weekly fees are probably $10 per player. each session last 10 weeks this is what it would look like.

So thats 140 teams a week playing, which means 560 players at $10 a player for total of $5600 a week for 10 weeks, $56000 a session and $224000 a year for your area.

If I am way off then please let me know.

We're starting to veer into unknown territory, and I'm not comfotable trying to really break it all down. But this is what I know.

Each team pays $40 a week. On a 12 week schedule. $40 x 48 week schedule = $1920 per team. Our division has 12 teams currently, $1900 x 12 = $23,040 paid in weekly dues for our division each year. Guessing 14 divisions in Maine, $23,040 x 14 = $322,560.

That doesn't count the annual membership of $25 per player, but I believe most of that goes directly to National, though I am quite unsure of that.

Also realize that we do not pay for table time on League nights here either. So when you are factoring pay-ins/pay-outs and what you actually get, each player in our division gets to play pool all night on league night for $8. The way we typically do it is only the people who actually compete that night pay, $8 each, so the other players who aren't competeing that night are playing for free.

The larger point of my post is that there are more payouts for APA players than just the promise of the Vegas trip, which has been insinuated earlier. I believe I get a good bang for my $8 a night. Table time is $10-$16 per hour at one of the rooms here...

 

[Marie's husband]

We're starting to veer into unknown territory, and I'm not comfotable trying to really break it all down. But this is what I know.

Each team pays $40 a week. On a 12 week schedule. $40 x 48 week schedule = $1920 per team. Our division has 12 teams currently, $1900 x 12 = $23,040 paid in weekly dues for our division each year. Guessing 14 divisions in Maine, $23,040 x 14 = $322,560.

That doesn't count the annual membership of $25 per player, but I believe most of that goes directly to National, though I am quite unsure of that.

Also realize that we do not pay for table time on League nights here either. So when you are factoring pay-ins/pay-outs and what you actually get, each player in our division gets to play pool all night on league night for $8. The way we typically do it is only the people who actually compete that night pay, $8 each, so the other players who aren't competeing that night are playing for free.

The larger point of my post is that there are more payouts for APA players than just the promise of the Vegas trip, which has been insinuated earlier. I believe I get a good bang for my $8 a night. Table time is $10-$16 per hour at one of the rooms here...

your right, we are Veering into the unknown and maybe it would be best that an actual APA operator or someone from headquarters may answer the questions about how the money is distributed.

As long as you are happy with what you are getting then thats all that counts for you. I know that I would not be happy with it and that is why I would not be part of this league and would probably just start my own that had open records so that anyone and everyone can see where the money is going.

 

[cuesmith]

I am not a BCAPL or an APA member so the above post really got me thinking about the numbers and it is just amazing at where the money is going. Maybe I just dont understand it and someone may clear it up for me someday, but I decided to actually do some research on my own and look at the two major leagues systems and try to come up with which one I would play in if I had that option.

Here is what I came up with by just looking at each league website and using the information that gave me to see how it is managed. I would imagine the websites dont have all the information needed to be 100 percent accurate, but it has enough information to give me "the just" of it.


The APA only shows there national tournaments and it list all the qualifiers to make it to nationals but it does not show added money for any of the qualifiers. With that, I guess the APA headquarters only adds money to Nationals and thats all.

APA- 265,000 members
membership fee $25
6.625 mil in just membership fee's.

Out of the 6.6 mil, I could only find 1.5 mil of that being used for the prize fund at the national championships so I imagine 5.1mil goes to the organization, not the members. Now that is just from membership fee's, so that doesnt even consider the weekly fees that goes to the district owner/league operator/and national headquarters. so I just cant imagine how much money is actually un-accounted for.



BCA- 60,000 members
membership fee $15
$900,000 in member fees.

I looked at the past events and upcoming events calender over a 12 month period and there is a ton of information on the BCAPL website so I stopped counting once the total was around 450k. I figured that 450k was enough to pay for travel expenses and salary's over a 12 month period for the management of the BCAPL.

I was really amazed at how the BCAPL sponsors so many tournaments, local, regional, national, it didnt matter, seemed like they were adding money to anything dealing with pool and they have a program to actually apply for your tournament to be sponsored by the BCAPL.



To sum it up and this is just my opinion on how I see the two leagues.

The APA is a business that is in it to make money, it sells the idea of having a chance to get an all expense paid trip to Vegas and win thousands. It also has a section to buy a sanctioned area, so if you have to purchase it, then someone has to pay for it and that would be the members.

The BCAPL is a more of an organization that collects a one time fee from its members and then sets up major tournaments throughout the US for any of its members to play in. Just by looking at there website it shows how actively involved they are with making changes and promoting pool.
Also, the BCAPL was not trying to sell sanctioned areas, they were willing to give you a sactioned area if you could prove that you are willing to do the work.

A real no brainer for me, play BCAPL if its available, if its not, try and start one if you have the players available. If I was playing in an APA league, I would be asking for a raise in money added or more tournaments available to all members.

Reps to you! This is the best post I've ever read about the APA and the way it's robbing it's membership! I'm not saying it's the league operators, it's at the National level where the real problem lies. I've been urging people for over 10 years to boycott the APA because of their tactics. I certainly do not begrudge anyone making a decent or even a good living, but the APA is taking it to the point of gouging it's membership!

 

[Scott Lee]

Marie's husband...You are so far off base here, it's beginning to get ridiculous. Go to your doctor, lawyer, plumber, auto mechanic, auto dealer, banker, etc. etc. etc. Ask them to "open their books" for you, so you can SEE where all the money is going! LMAO I want to see the look on your face when they tell you where to go. APA LO's, for years, have been open about the league (like it's some state secret...NOT). Yes, it is a business. Businesses must operate at a profit, or they GO UNDER. I guarantee you that if the LO with 500 teams is only making $100K he is getting screwed. Way too much abuse from misinformed players like yourself (I know, you said you don't play), plus the crybabies who think (WRONGLY) that every APA LO is "getting rich" (although some are, and richly deserve it imo). What a crock. In a lot of cases, I suspect they're not getting paid near enough for all the work they do...let alone all the grief they get (especially if it's reflected even marginally accurately here...which I highly doubt). One poster had the nerve to state that a poll of his area would result in 75% negative feedback. I wonder if he'd like to back that up?

I say play in the APA or don't play...but quit whining! Even if it's the "only" league, nobody puts a gun to your head and says "Play or you're dead!" LOL BTW, FTR I believe that APA Corporate should put more $$$ into the national events...and that's coming from a former successful APA LO. As far as the local LO's...if they keep their players happy, their league will thrive and grow. If they don't, their league will shrink. It's a pretty simple business model...and a successful one at that. Sure there are a few bad apple LO's...just like there are in the BCAPL, TAP, VNEA, ACS and any other organized league. However, the good ones outweigh the bad ones most likely 20-1. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

BTW, the BCAPL is NOT nonprofit either. It is a privately owned business that does a great job catering to their player members. Mark Griffin is not about to open his books to you either (and shouldn't). One last thing...PLEASE do go start your own league...if for no other reason, than to show you how much WORK it is (forget about the b*tching from the players). Then, at least, you'll have a podium to stand on, that is built on solid information.

Scott Lee ~ climbing down off my soapbox
www.poolknowledge.com

I know that I would not be happy with it and that is why I would not be part of this league and would probably just start my own that had open records so that anyone and everyone can see where the money is going.

 

[fish on]

boycott apa why?

Reps to you! This is the best post I've ever read about the APA and the way it's robbing it's membership! I'm not saying it's the league operators, it's at the National level where the real problem lies. I've been urging people for over 10 years to boycott the APA because of their tactics. I certainly do not begrudge anyone making a decent or even a good living, but the APA is taking it to the point of gouging it's membership!

apa is the leader in pool player recruitment
Over 20% are ladies think about the way pool has suffered from other leisure time activities
APA has done more to grow pool than any other thing!
I am putting teams into our local room and these people are the bar team guys who never would get into a pool room otherwise!
Listen up the pool rooms need players who spend money, the bars subsidize the fees just to get these guys in to drink!
The reason I am trying so hard to get this apa div going here is so these novice players who have a chance to win by the way are exposed to my friends room as u know 2 pool rooms have closed /are closing in my local pa area!
D&D and concord sorry for us
both great rooms but cannot make it from the current diminishing area players
So lets all feed the horse thats pulling the wagon!
leagues
FYI my other Divs team bars give money to play in their place which we split and each player pays 5 each time he plays a match.

The so called gouger league operater in my area also gives point back money to each team at the end of the year!!!
over 30 to each player on each team this year!!!
I think everybody should check out the APA website to see how they operate and have fun!!!

 

[cbi1000]

Marie's husband...You are so far off base here, it's beginning to get ridiculous. Go to your doctor, lawyer, plumber, auto mechanic, auto dealer, banker, etc. etc. etc. Ask them to "open their books" for you, so you can SEE where all the money is going! LMAO I want to see the look on your face when they tell you where to go. APA LO's, for years, have been open about the league (like it's some state secret...NOT). Yes, it is a business. Businesses must operate at a profit, or they GO UNDER. I guarantee you that if the LO with 500 teams is only making $100K he is getting screwed. Way too much abuse from misinformed players like yourself (I know, you said you don't play), plus the crybabies who think (WRONGLY) that every APA LO is "getting rich". What a crock.

I say play in the APA or don't play...but quit whining! Even if it's the "only" league, nobody puts a gun to your head and says "Play or you're dead!" LOL BTW, FTR I believe that APA Corporate should put more $$$ into the national events...and that's coming from a former successful APA LO. As far as the local LO's...if they keep their players happy, their league will thrive and grow. If they don't, their league will shrink. It's a pretty simple business model...and a successful one at that. Sure there are a few bad apple LO's...just like there are in the BCAPL, TAP, VNEA, ACS and any other organized league. However, the good ones outweigh the bad ones most likely 20-1. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

BTW, the BCAPL is NOT nonprofit either. It is a privately owned business that does a great job catering to their player members. Mark Griffin is not about to open his books to you either (and shouldn't). One last thing...PLEASE do go start your own league...if for no other reason, than to show you how much WORK it is (forget about the b*tching from the players). Then, at least, you'll have a podium to stand on, that is built on solid information.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

We are not talking about doctor, lawyer, plumber, auto mechanic, auto dealer, banker, etc. etc. etc

We are talking about pool. This is a pool forum, if we are talking about all that other stuff we'd be on other stuff forum.

OP was asking about BCA vs. APA. And many people have proven here time and time agian that APA has flaw after flaw. And in the end it's your money going into their pockets. However, if you claim to be the best then be the best. Make your biggest and best tourny (Nationals) the best. But they don't. They are such tight asses they get the worse equipment and have the most pissy people run it for a week hand out 25k to first place 8 ball and 15k for 9 ball and say we are the best.

And the thing i love the most, they come in and will kick out a team for sandbagging, still pay that team money and tell the teams that they beat too bad.

LOL

 

[Scott Lee]

fish on...Mickey's place is closing? Bummer...that's terrible news. I was just there in March.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The reason I am trying so hard to get this apa div going here is so these novice players who have a chance to win by the way are exposed to my friends room as u know 2 pool rooms have closed /are closing in my local pa area!
D&D and concord sorry for usboth great rooms but cannot make it from the current diminishing area players

 

[Scott Lee]

You miss the point entirely. No business (including pool leagues) is going to "open their books" to anyone...with the possible exception of a potential buyer...or the IRS.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

We are not talking about doctor, lawyer, plumber, auto mechanic, auto dealer, banker, etc. etc. etc

We are talking about pool. This is a pool forum, if we are talking about all that other stuff we'd be on other stuff forum.

OP was asking about BCA vs. APA. And many people have proven here time and time agian that APA has flaw after flaw. And in the end it's your money going into their pockets. However, if you claim to be the best then be the best. Make your biggest and best tourny (Nationals) the best. But they don't. They are such tight asses they get the worse equipment and have the most pissy people run it for a week hand out 25k to first place 8 ball and 15k for 9 ball and say we are the best.

And the thing i love the most, they come in and will kick out a team for sandbagging, still pay that team money and tell the teams that they beat too bad.

LOL

 

[cuesmith]

apa is the leader in pool player recruitment
Over 20% are ladies think about the way pool has suffered from other leisure time activities
APA has done more to grow pool than any other thing!
I am putting teams into our local room and these people are the bar team guys who never would get into a pool room otherwise!
Listen up the pool rooms need players who spend money, the bars subsidize the fees just to get these guys in to drink!
The reason I am trying so hard to get this apa div going here is so these novice players who have a chance to win by the way are exposed to my friends room as u know 2 pool rooms have closed /are closing in my local pa area!
D&D and concord sorry for us
both great rooms but cannot make it from the current diminishing area players
So lets all feed the horse thats pulling the wagon!
leagues
FYI my other Divs team bars give money to play in their place which we split and each player pays 5 each time he plays a match.

The so called gouger league operater in my area also gives point back money to each team at the end of the year!!!
over 30 to each player on each team this year!!!
I think everybody should check out the APA website to see how they operate and have fun!!!

If you'd have actually read what I wrote, you'd have seen that I said it's not the "League Operators" it's at the national level where the gouging is done! That's simply a fact! Whether you like the APA or not, if you're letting them

take your money with little returns for it, you are the sucker! I don't believe this is good for pool! They could do things in a manner where they made a good living, without using the "23 rule" as a devise to force teams to recruit

new players! This is what I find offensive and bad for the sport overall. The people being brought in to the sport, 1) for the most part fade away after being discouraged. 2) don't give a hoot about pool to begin with. 3) If they

do well and improve end up as disgusted with the APA as most people who've been involved!



I've owned 2 pool bars and 2 pool rooms over the years and started playing in the APA and sponsoring teams back in the beginning when it was the Busch Pool League. I've seen some of the most outrageous things happen due

to the "APA system" and the ridiculous way it's ran! Enough so, that even though I didn't have the time to do so, I took it upon myself to bring a different league system to my city. I worked my ass off for 2 1/2 years at it and

gave most of what we earned back to the players, a concept completely foreign to the APA hierarchy! I know how difficult the job of "league operator" really is, but the owners of the APA are the ones to blame! They're getting

super rich and couldn't care less about the sport or the people playing. And as long as people are asking questions about the APA I WILL voice my opinion, and I don't care who doesn't like it. My only regret is that the guy who I

gave my "Heart of Ohio Pool League" franchise to, didn't follow through. If he had, there wouldn't be an APA in Cincinnati! In 2 years we started up from scratch and had more teams and much more satisfied players than the APA!

I'm not talking from a few years experience, I was involved in the APA for off & on close to 20 years before I finally realized we could not change it from within, the greed at the top was too great! I WILL CONTINUE TO BOYCOTT

THE APA AND TELL ANYONE WHO WILL LISTEN JUST HOW SCREWED UP IT REALLY IS!

 

[Marie's husband]

Marie's husband...You are so far off base here, it's beginning to get ridiculous. Go to your doctor, lawyer, plumber, auto mechanic, auto dealer, banker, etc. etc. etc. Ask them to "open their books" for you, so you can SEE where all the money is going! LMAO I want to see the look on your face when they tell you where to go. APA LO's, for years, have been open about the league (like it's some state secret...NOT). Yes, it is a business. Businesses must operate at a profit, or they GO UNDER. I guarantee you that if the LO with 500 teams is only making $100K he is getting screwed. Way too much abuse from misinformed players like yourself (I know, you said you don't play), plus the crybabies who think (WRONGLY) that every APA LO is "getting rich" (although some are, and richly deserve it imo). What a crock. In a lot of cases, I suspect they're not getting paid near enough for all the work they do...let alone all the grief they get (especially if it's reflected even marginally accurately here...which I highly doubt). One poster had the nerve to state that a poll of his area would result in 75% negative feedback. I wonder if he'd like to back that up?

I say play in the APA or don't play...but quit whining! Even if it's the "only" league, nobody puts a gun to your head and says "Play or you're dead!" LOL BTW, FTR I believe that APA Corporate should put more $$$ into the national events...and that's coming from a former successful APA LO. As far as the local LO's...if they keep their players happy, their league will thrive and grow. If they don't, their league will shrink. It's a pretty simple business model...and a successful one at that. Sure there are a few bad apple LO's...just like there are in the BCAPL, TAP, VNEA, ACS and any other organized league. However, the good ones outweigh the bad ones most likely 20-1. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

BTW, the BCAPL is NOT nonprofit either. It is a privately owned business that does a great job catering to their player members. Mark Griffin is not about to open his books to you either (and shouldn't). One last thing...PLEASE do go start your own league...if for no other reason, than to show you how much WORK it is (forget about the b*tching from the players). Then, at least, you'll have a podium to stand on, that is built on solid information.

Scott Lee ~ climbing down off my soapbox
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

I was not expecting the APA to open up there books and I really didnt ask for there books to be opened so I think I may have been unclear on that with the way I wrote my last post. What I was looking for is someone within the APA to actually come on here and say it does cost 3 mil to operate and run the APA and there is not a surplus of 5mil from membership fees. Or have them say, we do have 6 regional tournaments a year that we put $$$ as sponsors or just something to justify the huge difference.

As per me being ridiculous about starting my own league and opening up the books? We have been doing it that way for the last 15 years and havent had a problem with it. Every member of the three leagues that are in the area can look at the current balance of the accounts and expendatures of the league because its part of the league's weekly results. Plus, every member knows how much the the payment of the President/secratary are because there is a one time fee when signing up. That fee is stated to each member when signing up.

Am I whining or *****ing, No I dont think so. A whiner is someone that crying about nothing and saying nothing and a *****er is someone that brings up a problem without a solution.

I do believe I made a point so Im not whining, and as far as *****ing, the resolution to what I brought up was stated earlier in an earlier thread. In case I didnt: if your happy with the situation playing in the APA then good for you, if your not, then dont play.

Why am I not bringing up the BCAPL or Mark Griffin as a business? As stated before, the BCAPL is a business and by looking at there website it proves that the BCAPL sponsors and promotes a substantial amount of there membership fees back into the game of pool. Looking at the APA website, doesnt really prove that too me.

 

[watchez]

I wouldn't personally play in the APA if the pool room/bar paid my league fees, picked me up at my house for league each night, got me drunk for free and took me home.

 

[Scott Lee]

I didn't call YOU ridiculous. I said you were obviously misinformed about the APA in general...which you are. To expect someone from APA Corporate to come on here and quote numbers is equally absurd. Many local APA LO's have done that for their players (I did), in the same vein as you describe for the local leagues you apparently have run for 15 yrs. There is no disagreement that a lot of money is being made by the parent company, and it is, seemingly, not shared much with the players (of course all the events they run, and the maintenance of a national league cost nothing, I suppose). For a business that has been successful for more than 3 decades, I would hope to heck that they're making a lot of money. That's why anyone is in business for any length of time. Could they do more? Sure...but that's their call, not mine. Again...don't like it, don't play. Seems pretty simple to me.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

I was not expecting the APA to open up there books and I really didnt ask for there books to be opened so I think I may have been unclear on that with the way I wrote my last post. What I was looking for is someone within the APA to actually come on here and say it does cost 3 mil to operate and run the APA and there is not a surplus of 5mil from membership fees. Or have them say, we do have 6 regional tournaments a year that we put $$$ as sponsors or just something to justify the huge difference.

As per me being ridiculous about starting my own league and opening up the books? We have been doing it that way for the last 15 years and havent had a problem with it. Every member of the three leagues that are in the area can look at the current balance of the accounts and expendatures of the league because its part of the league's weekly results. Plus, every member knows how much the the payment of the President/secratary are because there is a one time fee when signing up. That fee is stated to each member when signing up.

Am I whining or *****ing, No I dont think so. A whiner is someone that crying about nothing and saying nothing and a *****er is someone that brings up a problem without a solution.

I do believe I made a point so Im not whining, and as far as *****ing, the resolution to what I brought up was stated earlier in an earlier thread. In case I didnt: if your happy with the situation playing in the APA then good for you, if your not, then dont play.

Why am I not bringing up the BCAPL or Mark Griffin as a business? As stated before, the BCAPL is a business and by looking at there website it proves that the BCAPL sponsors and promotes a substantial amount of there membership fees back into the game of pool. Looking at the APA website, doesnt really prove that too me.

 

[cuesmith]

Could they do more? Sure...but that's their call, not mine. Again...don't like it, don't play. Seems pretty simple to me.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, I usually find your posts on target, but not in this case. Like you say, "If you don't like it, don't play." I agree with that, I don't play APA anymore. But where I find you wrong is that you also seem to think we shouldn't share our opinions and our experiences with others here, even when someone asks for it! Does that seem reasonable to you?

 

[Scott Lee]

Sherm...Yes, I agree with you about sharing opinions and experiences...which is why when someone posts that ALL APA experiences are bad, I counter with "no they're not". The simple fact is there are more good than bad. It's just a very vocal minority here that love to bash the APA. The huge majority of APA players couldn't find AzB with Google or Mapquest, but are happy playing in their local league!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, I usually find your posts on target, but not in this case. Like you say, "If you don't like it, don't play." I agree with that, I don't play APA anymore. But where I find you wrong is that you also seem to think we shouldn't share our opinions and our experiences with others here, even when someone asks for it! Does that seem reasonable to you?

 

[ridinda9]

Plenty of players post to support the APA.

The CEO of BCA posts to support his league , and posts regularly on several topics.

Terry , Larry , & Renee are nowhere to be seen. Because they don't care about your opinion - they're bigger than that.

To the fellow who listed APAs 'sponsorship' of the WPBA as one of their expenses - guess what , it has corporate sponsors of it's own , plus a lucrative TV deal. WPBA is a cash cow.

To the s/l 4 who's been playing APA 4 years and isn't sure people would recognize sandbagging if they saw it -yes , we would . It's real , and it
happens every week. Unfortunately , a certain amount of "handicap management" is required under the APA system. The APA's response to this is "mark defensive , and no one can cheat the system". BirdShot !
The equalizer doesn't really work- an s/l 3 is very seldom going to beat an
s/l 7 in the real world , so you simply have to play the lower skilled player over his head in regular session to keep his handicap down . The player may not even realize his captain is using him that way. "I just want you to get some experience actually playing against higher skilled players":wink:
And if a ball doesn't go in a hole when I shoot , 70% of the time that was
' handicap management , and , SURPRISE , it rolled to where you can't make it - but like Maxwell Smart , I only "missed it by that much"
The biggest complaint against the APA is the Nationals - where is the money really going , cuz it ain't coming back in the prize pool . My team leaves in 10 days to compete for a top prize of $10,000
divided by 8 players
$1200 dollars each- if we go all the way
I'll lose more than that at the Cue Club
They take it in , but they don't pay it out . . .

And all this is before I start on their out of control local league operators -
whom they have neither the desire nor the ability to rein in.
I play simultaneously in two different APA regions 600 miles apart (only takes 4 matches per session to stay qualified) so I have a very clear understanding pf how much is on the local operator- and to answer someone else question , yes , in some areas 75% dissatifaction may be
correct , but APA's the only game in town , and the Local League operator
owns the franchise, so essentially she (oops , identity hint slipped out) can do anything she wants. Stand up to oppose her at a captains meeting and your s/l suddenly goes up - and locally controlled bonus points aren't awarded - ad infinitum.

nuff sed

 

[sk8ordie]

Judges have the BCA ahead on the scorecards after round one.
Round 2 [DING!] :thumbup:

 

[Scott Lee]

ridinda9...Wow, at just 34 posts you have it all figured out. Amazing!

Plenty of players post to support the APA.

True, but here the haters outnumber the supporters at least 10-1, plus the fact that most of the APA has never heard of AzBilliards (to their detriment, because there is a wealth of information available here).

The CEO of BCA posts to support his league , and posts regularly on several topics.

Terry , Larry , & Renee are nowhere to be seen. Because they don't care about your opinion - they're bigger than that.

No...They're former professional players, and like mosts pros, choose not to post here because too many people like you will bash them to death and drive them away. Thank goodness for the few that do post...like John Schmidt. I enjoy the fact that Mark Griffin posts here frequently. He's very good for pool, and his opinion is certainly one I personally value and respect. Oh, and just to be specific, Mark is the CEO of the BCAPL, not the BCA...two completely different organizations.

To the fellow who listed APAs 'sponsorship' of the WPBA as one of their expenses - guess what , it has corporate sponsors of it's own , plus a lucrative TV deal. WPBA is a cash cow.

A cash cow huh? Boy that would be news to the players...who have lost sponsorship dollars and tournament venues right and left, over the past few years (this year there are a whole 4 events planned). Somehow that doesn't sound much like a cash cow.

To the s/l 4 who's been playing APA 4 years and isn't sure people would recognize sandbagging if they saw it -yes , we would . It's real , and it happens every week. Unfortunately , a certain amount of "handicap management" is required under the APA system.

If you reread the thread, you'd see that it was someone else who suggested that the OP might not recognize sandbagging...not the APA 4 that originally posted.

The APA's response to this is "mark defensive , and no one can cheat the system". BirdShot !

Scored correctly by BOTH teams, defensive shots do help in reigning in the cheaters.

The equalizer doesn't really work- an s/l 3 is very seldom going to beat an
s/l 7 in the real world , so you simply have to play the lower skilled player over his head in regular session to keep his handicap down . The player may not even realize his captain is using him that way. "I just want you to get some experience actually playing against higher skilled players":wink:
And if a ball doesn't go in a hole when I shoot , 70% of the time that was
' handicap management , and , SURPRISE , it rolled to where you can't make it - but like Maxwell Smart , I only "missed it by that much"

You actually have one point correct. In most cases a 3 will not beat a 7...and that's how the system is supposed to work. There is always a chance, however slight...and it has happened. "Handicap management", or whatever you wish to call it, is nothing more than outight cheating. If you have to cheat to win...go with what you do best, I suppose (I know...it's okay because EVERYBODY does it, right?).

The biggest complaint against the APA is the Nationals - where is the money really going , cuz it ain't coming back in the prize pool . My team leaves in 10 days to compete for a top prize of $10,000 divided by 8 players $1200 dollars each- if we go all the way I'll lose more than that at the Cue Club

If it's as bad as you say, why are you going? You have your figures wrong, of course (big surprise). The 8-ball prize is $25K, divided 8 ways is $3k each...not bad. The 9-ball prize is $15K, divided 8 ways is about $2K each...still not bad. Of course that's just 1st Place (but I GUARANTEE you that those winners will be deleriously happy, with the $$$ and the win...after all they did just win a national championship, that can never be taken away). The APA pays all the way to last place. Name another league or tournament EVER that paid the whole field. You can't, because there aren't any.

They take it in , but they don't pay it out . . .

Maybe you should just take the $50 you'll get when you arrive (last place $$$), and go bet it on red. You'd probably have a better chance to win more, than playing in the tournament.

And all this is before I start on their out of control local league operators -
whom they have neither the desire nor the ability to rein in. I play simultaneously in two different APA regions 600 miles apart (only takes 4 matches per session to stay qualified) so I have a very clear understanding pf how much is on the local operator- and to answer someone else question , yes , in some areas 75% dissatifaction may be correct

Wow...you travel 600 miles to play in a league you HATE? Who's the unhappy idiot here? I'll take a bet on the 75% dissatisfaction rate...and we can get a factual survey done to decide the winner...as opposed to your 'official' predictions.

but APA's the only game in town , and the Local League operator owns the franchise, so essentially she (oops , identity hint slipped out) can do anything she wants. Stand up to oppose her at a captains meeting and your s/l suddenly goes up - and locally controlled bonus points aren't awarded - ad infinitum.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about here either. If LO's could raise skill levels simply because they didn't like people, they'd be out of biz pretty fast. Unbeknownst to you, APA Corporate can discipline LO's, and even revoke franchises for things you're supposing happen at will.

nuff sed

Boy, I'll say...nuff said!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[watchez]

Scott - many of your points hold some water but your point that Larry and Terry are former pros and don't post here because of how people on this site treat pros is weak. Not many that post on this site even know anything about their past. It is the present and their current business that stops them or anyone from their organization from posting here.

Did you know that Louie Roberts was in the process of gathering information with an attorney to sue Larry and Terry at the time of his death?