BCALeague, Mark Griffin & Professional Pool Players

Where was the UPA when the issue with payouts of the Arizona Tournament came out?
Hmmmm, let me see... Nowhere to be found. They just said it was not their problem. It was a UPA sanctioned event therefore the money should have been secure somehow, but UPA made no assurancces that the money was available for real. On these tournaments an escrow service should have been provided.
Who saved the day? Mr. Mark Griffin!
 
Lots of kind things said for Mark here. His contribution to the sport is greatly appreciated.

However, Mark also has a great crew working for him. Besides others, I would personally like to mention David Vandenberghe, who I believe has contributed also to Mark's path.

David has been in the industry since back in the '60's. He has been in the billiards industry in sales and promotion, a cue maker, National Tournament Director for the APA and then Vice President for the 6 year duration with the organization, he has managed and directed the Pro Billiards Tour and the Camel Pro Tour and has been National Accounts Manager for Diamond and currently the Chief Operating Officer for the BCA Pool Leagues.

It is great to know that behind Mark's generosity and planning, he has such good people working along with his vision.

Let's hear it for David.
 
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klockdoc said:
Lots of kind things said for Mark here. His contribution to the sport is greatly appreciated.

However, Mark also has a great crew working for him. Besides others, I would personally like to mention David Vandenberghe, who I believe has contributed also to Mark's path.

David has been in the industry since back in the '60's. He has been in the billiards industry in sales and promotion, a cue maker, National Tournament Director for the APA and then Vice President for the 6 year duration with the organization, he has managed and directed the Pro Billiards Tour and the Camel Pro Tour and has been National Accounts Manager for Diamond and currently the Chief Operating Officer for the BCA Pool Leagues.

It is great to know that behind Mark's generosity and planning, he has such good people working along with his vision.

Let's hear it for David.
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Agreed. Behind a great leader there is also great people as well.
 
Deal Me IN

bestkites said:
Agreed. Behind a great leader there is also great people as well.
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I once carried a full bottle of beer across a large crowded poolroom and gave it to Mark without spilling a drop or drinking any of it.

Doug
( I wonder if he has a job for me..............................one where I don't have to show up or wear any pants )



Edited to add: Everyone was getting along so well in this thread, that I went back to bed and woke up all over a second time in order for it cook a little longer, but to no avail. Damn civil people.
 
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Smorgass Bored said:
I once carried a full bottle of beer across a large crowded poolroom and gave it to Mark without spilling a drop or drinking any of it.

Doug
( I wonder if he has a job for me..............................one where I don't have to show up or wear any pants )



Edited to add: Everyone was getting along so well in this thread, that I went back to bed and woke up all over a second time in order for it cook a little longer, but to no avail. Damn civil people.
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Your point is?
 
Smorgass Bored said:
Point ?
If I'd known I needed a point, I'd never have joined AZB.
Doug
( I'm going to walk the dog.......and I'll return when I've found a dog to walk )


.
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Right................Ic.......................... Also if you find a dog to walk make sure you take a plastic bag to get his disposibles thrown in the garbage as well.
 
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Code Of Conduct

sjm said:
Take a deep bow, Joey, for what may be your single finest post as a member of this forum.

Pro pool players need to come to the realization that it's the man behind the venture, not the money behind the venture, that will save the day.

In December 2005, before the first IPT event was even played, I recall being rubbed the wrong way by posts suggestng that Kevin Trudeau's riches were the very guarantee that tournament players had always sought, and somewhat angrily, I posted the following:



As importantly, Trudeau had no history of doing anything for pool and refused to tie the future of his organization to anything or anyone concerned about the general well-being of both amateur and pro pool. He lacked the track record, and he lacked the passion to be the man who would see to pool's future as a sport. As many pointed out before the IPT held it's first tournament, he also lacked integrity.

Mark Griffin is the anti-Trudeau. He has the track record of being a continual and passionate supporter and benefactor of pro pool. He has given to our sport in so many ways, and his recent actions only serve to remind us of his unswerving commitment to pro pool and its future. He is a man who understands that the future of pool is about both amateur and pro pool. He is a man with vision, passion, and integrity, a man in whom the players should trust.

Mark Griffin may not be the only man worthy of such trust, but he is a passionate, credible, long-term benefactor of our sport. To pro players, with due respect, all I can say is:

"Despite his appalling track record, Trudeau's credit was good enough for you. Mark Griffin has a far greater track record, so, perhaps you need to have a little faith rather than trying to financially strong arm him to the point that he might lose interest in this venture."

Joey A hit the nail on the head.
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And you drove the nail home. You see what I see in Mark Griffin. I'm glad that there are others who see it as well.

Now if we can just get the pro players to see what we see.

Perhaps then, the players will give him the complete control that he needs to make this happen.

Unfortunately, pool players as a whole have not been able to organize themselves. They have not been able to provide a steady income for themselves. Until now, they have not been able to hitch their careers to any successful pool tour or pool organization.

I just hope that the professional players don't allow their own personal egos and personal perspectives to get in the way of supporting this plan and Mark Griffin from the get-go.

Pool players will need to make another transition: One from having their hands out, trying to make demands for a pay day, to creating demand for their services and individually and collectively, marketing themselves to the world. This new plan will surely entail things that the players NEED to do for themselves.

Another AZer and myself have created a CODE OF CONDUCT for professional pool players and it will soon be offered to them. A lot of time and effort has been invested in creating this document and pool players would do themselves proud to read and practice what we have outlined for them.

The CODE OF CONDUCT has been a labor of love and we hope that the players will seriously read, consider and practice the things we have outlined. It will help their careers and personal lives, of that I'm sure.

It should be available within the next couple of weeks.

Thanks again for your kind words and poignant remarks.

Sincerely,

Joey Aguzin
 
klockdoc said:
Lots of kind things said for Mark here. His contribution to the sport is greatly appreciated.

However, Mark also has a great crew working for him. Besides others, I would personally like to mention David Vandenberghe, who I believe has contributed also to Mark's path.

David has been in the industry since back in the '60's. He has been in the billiards industry in sales and promotion, a cue maker, National Tournament Director for the APA and then Vice President for the 6 year duration with the organization, he has managed and directed the Pro Billiards Tour and the Camel Pro Tour and has been National Accounts Manager for Diamond and currently the Chief Operating Officer for the BCA Pool Leagues.

It is great to know that behind Mark's generosity and planning, he has such good people working along with his vision.

Let's hear it for David.
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TAP, TAP, TAP!
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
And you drove the nail home. You see what I see in Mark Griffin. I'm glad that there are others who see it as well.

Now if we can just get the pro players to see what we see.

Perhaps then, the players will give him the complete control that he needs to make this happen.

Unfortunately, pool players as a whole have not been able to organize themselves. They have not been able to provide a steady income for themselves. Until now, they have not been able to hitch their careers to any successful pool tour or pool organization.

I just hope that the professional players don't allow their own personal egos and personal perspectives to get in the way of supporting this plan and Mark Griffin from the get-go.

Pool players will need to make another transition: One from having their hands out, trying to make demands for a pay day, to creating demand for their services and individually and collectively, marketing themselves to the world. This new plan will surely entail things that the players NEED to do for themselves.

Another AZer and myself have created a CODE OF CONDUCT for professional pool players and it will soon be offered to them. A lot of time and effort has been invested in creating this document and pool players would do themselves proud to read and practice what we have outlined for them.

The CODE OF CONDUCT has been a labor of love and we hope that the players will seriously read, consider and practice the things we have outlined. It will help their careers and personal lives, of that I'm sure.

It should be available within the next couple of weeks.

Thanks again for your kind words and poignant remarks.

Sincerely,

Joey Aguzin
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CODE OF CONDUCT

Rule #1. Don't call anyone the Gingerbread Man.
 
Also had a brief conversation with Bill in Vegas and BCA will come out with a new handicapped system to be applied on all leagues. That same system will also be applied on the BCA Nationals in Vegas and APA is going to start having some real competition. There is a lot of stuff coming down the pipe from BCA, not only the support for pro players but to the sport of billiards as a whole.
 
JAM...I hope you know I admire much of what you write but I have to take issue with you on a couple of important things.

When someone shows me a truthful financial statement, I will believe the KT "invested $10 million" in the IPT. His "investment" is only what might have come out of his own pocket.

When you deduct the significant sums of entry and qualifier fees and sponsor dollars, I would wager that his personal out-of-pocket "investment" was substantially less than $10 million.

Secondly, of course, those who were actually PAID would love that fact but you worded your post to suggest that most if not all the pros were happy about what happened. I must doubt very seriously that that is correct but of course, you are just as entitled to your opinion that it is correct as I am that it is not.

Finally, if the episode was JUST a failed business plan then fine. All hail to the guy that has the stones to take a shot.

But without a shred of doubt, the episode was NOT merely a failed business plan. Rather, KT LIED THROUGH HIS TEETH....OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN....just as he lied to those he criminally defrauded in his credit card episode and lies to when he publishes his preposterous books that promise cures for everything from impotence to lymphatic CANCER without a shred of EVIDENCE.

The man is a MENACE and quite frankly, his presence in the industry does nothing but perpetuate the rather "sleazy" reputation that pool has and has had throughout its existence in this country.

Again...I admire you and think you are COOL BEANS and all that stuff...but I had to chime in on this one.

And BTW, I was a player sponsor so I do have a dog in this hunt...about a $10,000.00 dog as a matter of fact! (-:

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
JAM...I hope you know I admire much of what you write but I have to take issue with you on a couple of important things.

When someone shows me a truthful financial statement, I will believe the KT "invested $10 million" in the IPT. His "investment" is only what might have come out of his own pocket.

When you deduct the significant sums of entry and qualifier fees and sponsor dollars, I would wager that his personal out-of-pocket "investment" was substantially less than $10 million.

Secondly, of course, those who were actually PAID would love that fact but you worded your post to suggest that most if not all the pros were happy about what happened. I must doubt very seriously that that is correct but of course, you are just as entitled to your opinion that it is correct as I am that it is not.

Finally, if the episode was JUST a failed business plan then fine. All hail to the guy that has the stones to take a shot.

....Again...I admire you and think you are COOL BEANS and all that stuff...but I had to chime in on this one.

And BTW, I was a player sponsor so I do have a dog in this hunt...about a $10,000.00 dog as a matter of fact! (-:

Regards,
Jim
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You know, I have never done the math, but if I were to add up everything that was paid -- BEFORE RENO -- it would be several million dollars.

I am not sure I would have access to the qualifier entry fees paid to the IPT, but if I can find that information this weekend, I will take the time to add them all up.

Another thing to consider is the expense of the venue sites. I do not know how much the King of the Hill venue sites cost, one in Vegas and one in Orlando. The entry was free for spectators and players.

Then you have the staff of the IPT, some of whom must have received paychecks at one time. The camera men and broadcast folks were plentiful at all events. I am sure some if not all of them had to have gotten paid.

All in all, I would guesstimate a $10 million initial outlay on behalf of Kevin Trudeau.

JAM
 
JAM said:
You know, I have never done the math, but if I were to add up everything that was paid -- BEFORE RENO -- it would be several million dollars.

I am not sure I would have access to the qualifier entry fees paid to the IPT, but if I can find that information this weekend, I will take the time to add them all up.

Another thing to consider is the expense of the venue sites. I do not know how much the King of the Hill venue sites cost, one in Vegas and one in Orlando. The entry was free for spectators and players.

Then you have the staff of the IPT, some of whom must have received paychecks at one time. The camera men and broadcast folks were plentiful at all events. I am sure some if not all of them had to have gotten paid.

All in all, I would guesstimate a $10 million initial outlay on behalf of Kevin Trudeau.
JAM
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Could be...but again, his "investment" is a sum equal to his gross income less expenses. I also recall that he continued holding qualifiers LONG after the last event.

I can't imagine that he or anyone remaining on his staff would ever release such information about a private company and given the man's DOCUMENTED propensity to lie his face off (remember the "checks in the mail" story??? and the Fed Ex lost the checks story...IN WRITING???)
it would be foolish to believe whatever one might be TOLD without seeing the documents.

Regards,
Jim
 
This has got to be the friendliest, most to-the point and well-written thread on this forum. Congratulations to all for being so civilized, a virtue quickly becoming lost.

On-topic: Anything known about how Mark Griffin will actually structure his idea? Will he be organizing tournaments or funding existing tournaments? Will he be organizing worldwide TV-coverage? Any idea when we might see something more from him?

Note to mr. Griffin: Best of luck to you sir!
 
the shame is that this is noteworthy

Ron kars said:
This has got to be the friendliest, most to-the point and well-written thread on this forum. Congratulations to all for being so civilized, a virtue quickly becoming lost.

On-topic: Anything known about how Mark Griffin will actually structure his idea? Will he be organizing tournaments or funding existing tournaments? Will he be organizing worldwide TV-coverage? Any idea when we might see something more from him?

Note to mr. Griffin: Best of luck to you sir!
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The shame is that a thread that is civil and between people that respect each other and the other person's opinions is noteworthy. This should be a typical thread and the ones that degenerate into flames the exception.

I too am eagerly awaiting details from Mr. Griffin. However, with both Mr. Griffin and Mr. Janis working to help men's pro pool I am feeling more optimistic about it than I have in years. We have good men with organizations and experience behind them trying to get something going for men's pool. I hope to see some activity in 2008 and a great 2009!

Hu
 
Off Topic.....On Topic

Off Topic..... I hope this thread doesn't change into a Love/Bash KT thread again...:eek: Start your own. This one is for Mark and his accomplishments/dreams.



On Topic.....

bestkites said:
Also had a brief conversation with Bill in Vegas and BCA will come out with a new handicapped system to be applied on all leagues. That same system will also be applied on the BCA Nationals in Vegas and APA is going to start having some real competition. There is a lot of stuff coming down the pipe from BCA, not only the support for pro players but to the sport of billiards as a whole.
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I hope Mark doesn't change to a handicap system. I thoroughly love the non-handicap system that BCA employs at the National level. This is why I left the APA.

Stand up and play. If you can't beat the guy your playing, practice more. JMO
 
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klockdoc said:
I hope Mark doesn't change to a handicap system. I thoroughly love the non-handicap system that BCA employs. This is why I left the APA.
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BCA leagues DO have a handicap system - it's just more team-oriented, collectively, than individual-oriented. But (I don't know first hand, so correct me if I'm wrong) that handicap system doesn't apply at the Vegas event.

And that said, as best I can tell, each BCA league operator can run his/her league the way he/she wants. So there could well be local BCA leagues that have NO handicapping whatsoever. *shrug*

The one I play in, in fact, has been EXTRA handicapped - instead of the lower-total-handicap team getting the difference in the two team's total handicaps every round, they get 150% of that, rounded up. So 1 becomes 1.5, rounded up to 2, 2 becomes 3, 3 becomes 4.5, rounded up to 5, 4 becomes 6, etc.

This 150% bonus has made the league more competitive, yes, but it's also led to oddities such as the weakest team ending up in first place in the standings. Their total earned games/points are the lowest amongst the eight teams in the league, but that 150% bonus they get (as they are always on the receiving end) pushed them to the top.

I believe our league operator guy is revising that plan (which he inherited when he took over) for this coming session starting next week.
 
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A handicap (sandbagging) system like the APA will ruin the BCA. Obviously what klockdoc meant was that if the BCA went to a numbered handicap system like the APA, it will be disastrous. Yes, the BCA has tiers but not handicaps. Handicaps imply that two players of different skill levels play each other and some sort of spot is involved.
 
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