Becoming a good player

[CantEverWin]

I'm 31 years old and from about 18 years old I was introduced to a lot of games. I had actually read up on pool, and it's many forms before before I was able to play them.

I try to be logical. If 14.1 is the best judge of pool talent then we need to reorder who we view as the best players in the world. It usually seems that when we have 14.1 tourneys a different group of guys move to the top. Not all obviously, but the favorites do change. Kind of like bank pool.

I highly enjoy playing 14.1. I may have the most fun playing 3 cushion billiards. Playing a lot of that seems to narrow me in playing other pool games as well.

My favorite, and what I consider one of the more difficult games to play well is golf on a tight pocket snooker table. I like playing it heads up. From what I understand that may not be a game that's popular elsewhere. Hell, it's not even popular here, and would bore rotation players.

 

[cleary]

Proper practice, drills, gamble with tough players at your above your speed.

 

[3andstop]

Once you get to a high level, the break is anything but hoping to get lucky.

Oh boy here I go ... I can't help it.

Look, I understand high level players try to get calculated results on a 9 ball break, but it's time to be realistic here.

First of all I didn't start this thread to talk about high level players, I am talking about a suggestion on how to get better to be a high level player, and how to be more consistent in running out your first rack of 9 ball as well as subsequent racks if that game continues to be your game of choice after experiencing real pool. Aside from practice drills, I'm talking about the most beneficial game to play to get better.

Getting better happens with CB control and CB control is a product of touch, execution, knowledge, concentration and focus, and creativity. NONE OF WHICH are best learned by playing 9 ball and I'll tell you why.

In 9 ball (and speaking here in comparison to the better learning choice, straight pool), position zones are enormous, concentration and focus are continually broken by the very nature of this short rack game that has players switching turns every 3 minutes. Also by it's very nature, the game is so ridiculously restricted and one dimensional by the choices of shot that creativity is practically non existent. Additionally the penalty for missing a shot in 9 ball is far far less crucial than missing a shot in straight pool, so the depth of focus and concentration is quickly learned the hard way in straight pool.

Secondly, and in direct response to your post, even high level players can't guarantee good results on a 9 ball break, all they can do is hit them how they feel they can get the best results. No one on earth can predict the ending place of 10 balls on a pool table when you smash them all to hell, and even one ball blocking the path to a hit, kick, or hole changes everything, so don't tell me it isn't luck.

9 ball can be a fun game to play in small doses when armed with the advanced knowledge and ability to concentrate and execute. But not the "be all, end all" game for beginning level players to learn from because it doesn't offer the opportunities like straight pool.

One of the most important aspects of playing advanced pool is the ability to focus and concentrate, the ability to fall into dead stroke, And the best way to learn that is to experience it. The best way to experience it is to be exposed to it by the opportunity to feel it for extended periods of time. The more you experience it, the more natural the feeling becomes and the better the likely hood of calling it up on demand becomes.

Now, on a totally different note If I may get off topic on my own thread, ... it bewilders me how anyone, let alone the majority of pool players can enjoy playing rack after rack, hour after hour of this mindless game that dictates your every move, leads you around the pool table like lemmings, monotonously and redundantly, and is dependent on a successful opening smash and crash. And ... when you get blocked you take out some circus short cue and start jumping over balls, until finally the stars align and you run out and think you did something repeatable without repeated luck when you are admittedly a C player. You continue this ridiculous process over and over, hoping to get better? or luckier? I don't think they know. Are you kidding me?

They are a generation or 2 removed from real pool and don't even know what it is.

Straight pool and one pocket ... and shit, even 8 ball are far more creative games that you would think could hold the interest of the majority of pool players. But no, the way I see it, the younger generation has bastardized the art of pool and turned it into this short rack carnival game which as morphed into a generation of lazy players who don't care to explore the depths of this game and yet want to improve.

 

[runout1961]

I agree, 9 ball is pool at its most basic form. I guess that's why it makes it onto the tv more than any other form of pool. My favorite game to play has been 14.1 for some time now, and I've put a lot of hours into it to try and become good. Those hours I put in to 14.1 increased all other games, rotation, 8 ball and snooker. I didn't know it at the time but it forces you to think and concentrate more so than 9 ball ever can. You start to master simple positional shots, soft stun, drawing the CB back 1ft, stun run through, all these shots I class as the backbone of any decent pool players game. I started to realize I don't have to move the CB 4 rails in 9 ball quite so much if I plan the rack correctly. Would I fear playing someone who has run an 8 pack in 9 ball previously or someone who consistently runs 30-50 in 14.1....i would rather play the guy who ran an 8 pack that one time.



My view on 9 ball is you only need a small number of shots in your arsenal to be any good at it, where as to be any good at 14.1 especially a player that can run 100+ you need to have every type of shot in your arsenal, so rather than spending time playing and trying to be a monster at 9 ball, I feel people would be better served devoting more time to try become a monster straight pool player.

Good post. Very well said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Masayoshi]

Oh boy here I go ... I can't help it.

Look, I understand high level players try to get calculated results on a 9 ball break, but it's time to be realistic here.

First of all I didn't start this thread to talk about high level players, I am talking about a suggestion on how to get better to be a high level player, and how to be more consistent in running out your first rack of 9 ball as well as subsequent racks if that game continues to be your game of choice after experiencing real pool. Aside from practice drills, I'm talking about the most beneficial game to play to get better.

Getting better happens with CB control and CB control is a product of touch, execution, knowledge, concentration and focus, and creativity. NONE OF WHICH are best learned by playing 9 ball and I'll tell you why.

In 9 ball (and speaking here in comparison to the better learning choice, straight pool), position zones are enormous, concentration and focus are continually broken by the very nature of this short rack game that has players switching turns every 3 minutes. Also by it's very nature, the game is so ridiculously restricted and one dimensional by the choices of shot that creativity is practically non existent. Additionally the penalty for missing a shot in 9 ball is far far less crucial than missing a shot in straight pool, so the depth of focus and concentration is quickly learned the hard way in straight pool.

If you think 9 ball isn't a creative game, you just haven't gone deep enough. Certain patterns in 9 ball are elementary and once everything is clear, its tic tac toe, but the skill and creativity in 9 ball comes BEFORE everything is clear. No other game in pool requires such a wide repertoire of kicks, period (well 10 ball, but lets face it, they are the same game for discussion purposes). It also is the only game where the vast majority of your safeties require you to separate the cue ball and object ball while keeping them away from the pockets (and rails), which is more difficult that most of the other games on an execution basis and often times a conceptual basis, especially during the end game.

Also, position in 9 ball is far from easy, it is one of the most difficult because it is much more difficult to recover from a bad angle. And often times, there is an extremely fine line between a good angle an a bad angle, probably more so than most other games because your average shot is much longer and difficult to make because of the stroke demands.

Secondly, and in direct response to your post, even high level players can't guarantee good results on a 9 ball break, all they can do is hit them how they feel they can get the best results. No one on earth can predict the ending place of 10 balls on a pool table when you smash them all to hell, and even one ball blocking the path to a hit, kick, or hole changes everything, so don't tell me it isn't luck.

No one can predict the lay of 10 balls on the break, but no one can predict the lay of 14 balls after a break in straight pool. What is predictable is the path of the one and the cue ball. Good players, not even top players, can control these two balls with consistency and anything with consistency isn't luck. A ball knocking these balls away from their intended positions or blocking the pocket happens, but is equivalent to playing a safety in straight pool only to have a dead ball line up in the rack. If you want to call that luck, all games are luck.

9 ball can be a fun game to play in small doses when armed with the advanced knowledge and ability to concentrate and execute. But not the "be all, end all" game for beginning level players to learn from because it doesn't offer the opportunities like straight pool.

Certainly its not and beginning players should strive to learn all games to some extent, but it is far from the checkers and chess comparison people make it out to be. Nor is 9 ball a game that should be neglected by beginners as it is the game that focuses most on execution, which is what beginners most lack.

One of the most important aspects of playing advanced pool is the ability to focus and concentrate, the ability to fall into dead stroke, And the best way to learn that is to experience it. The best way to experience it is to be exposed to it by the opportunity to feel it for extended periods of time. The more you experience it, the more natural the feeling becomes and the better the likely hood of calling it up on demand becomes.

The better you get, the less you will care about getting in dead stroke it will come around now and again, sure, but what makes a player good is not how well he plays when he is on, but how well he plays when he is off. If you play like Earl in dead stroke, but a C player normally, you are still a C player.

Now, on a totally different note If I may get off topic on my own thread, ... it bewilders me how anyone, let alone the majority of pool players can enjoy playing rack after rack, hour after hour of this mindless game that dictates your every move, leads you around the pool table like lemmings, monotonously and redundantly, and is dependent on a successful opening smash and crash. And ... when you get blocked you take out some circus short cue and start jumping over balls, until finally the stars align and you run out and think you did something repeatable without repeated luck when you are admittedly a C player. You continue this ridiculous process over and over, hoping to get better? or luckier? I don't think they know. Are you kidding me?

If you think that's all there is to 9 ball, you haven't come far enough yet. 9 ball is one of the deepest games in pool because it requires you to do more with less options rather than do less with more options. Yes, the other games require a bit of pattern reading beyond what 9 ball requires, but most of that is extremely basic stuff. Anybody who has played pool at a decent level can come up with a reasonable pattern for the other games without much difficulty.

They are a generation or 2 removed from real pool and don't even know what it is.

Straight pool and one pocket ... and shit, even 8 ball are far more creative games that you would think could hold the interest of the majority of pool players. But no, the way I see it, the younger generation has bastardized the art of pool and turned it into this short rack carnival game which as morphed into a generation of lazy players who don't care to explore the depths of this game and yet want to improve.

Again, reading patterns, 90% of the time, is very basic stuff not exactly what I would call creative. ALL good players can read a pattern whether or not the are primarily 9ball players. There are specialty shots in one pocket that take creativity, and straight pool takes a bit of creativity in the breaking clusters department. 9 ball takes creativity in the kick department, not to mention finding alternate ways to get out, safeties, and 2 way shots. All games require creativity, suggesting 9 ball uses less is just underestimating how good you can actually get at the game.

 

[BasementDweller]

[...]

Again, reading patterns, 90% of the time, is very basic stuff not exactly what I would call creative. ALL good players can read a pattern whether or not the are primarily 9ball players. There are specialty shots in one pocket that take creativity, and straight pool takes a bit of creativity in the breaking clusters department. 9 ball takes creativity in the kick department, not to mention finding alternate ways to get out, safeties, and 2 way shots. All games require creativity, suggesting 9 ball uses less is just underestimating how good you can actually get at the game.

Great post Masayoshi.

There are many people that try to turn pool into rocket surgery.

I don't care what game you are talking about -- 14.1 and one-pocket included, picking out the correct shot is not that difficult of a task. It's the execution of the shot that's the hard part.

Execution trumps knowledge when it comes to pool.

There are many advantages to playing 14.1 but it's not the holy grail of pool like some people think. Actually, if there is such a game it might just be rotation.

 

[Pidge]

Great post Masayoshi.

There are many people that try to turn pool into rocket surgery.

I don't care what game you are talking about -- 14.1 and one-pocket included, picking out the correct shot is not that difficult of a task. It's the execution of the shot that's the hard part.

Execution trumps knowledge when it comes to pool.

There are many advantages to playing 14.1 but it's not the holy grail of pool like some people think. Actually, if there is such a game it might just be rotation.

I understand what you are saying but without knowledge how do you know what to execute? Without the right execution the knowledge is pointless. Its like those who think buying an aiming system will make them a pro. Sure they may have the knowledge of of how to make balls, but without the right execution that aiming system, or knowledge is pointless. You need both in abundance to play at the highest level, but a good 50/50 mix of the two will make you a tough player to beat.

 

[3andstop]

Great post Masayoshi.



Execution trumps knowledge when it comes to pool.

I think you mean execution trumps knowledge when it comes to 9 ball. You would be correct there since you are led from shot to shot by the little numbers on the balls.

You try bringing blind firepower to a straight pool or one pocket match and you'll be eaten alive.

 

[BasementDweller]

I understand what you are saying but without knowledge how do you know what to execute? Without the right execution the knowledge is pointless. Its like those who think buying an aiming system will make them a pro. Sure they may have the knowledge of of how to make balls, but without the right execution that aiming system, or knowledge is pointless. You need both in abundance to play at the highest level, but a good 50/50 mix of the two will make you a tough player to beat.

I just think it is way easier to acquire the knowledge of the game (all games) than it is to put in the necessary hours that it takes to get the execution part down. I just really don't think the game is all that difficult. Especially now that we can sit down and study all the pros playing the various games.

Maybe I'm too close to the forest here but the knowledge part of the game has always come pretty easy for me. That's probably true for most people that are truly fascinated by something. I've spent way more time trying to figure out what my body is doing at the table than I have spent trying to figure out what the balls are doing.

I think you mean execution trumps knowledge when it comes to 9 ball. You would be correct there since you are led from shot to shot by the little numbers on the balls.

You try bringing blind firepower to a straight pool or one pocket match and you'll be eaten alive.

I'm not really talking about blind firepower here but this is the sort of thing that always comes up about one pocket and it's just not true anymore. The one pocket learning curve for top players used to be years but now it's more like months. If they can execute the shots they can quickly learn to out shoot the "movers".

 

[3andstop]

I'm not really talking about blind firepower here but this is the sort of thing that always comes up about one pocket and it's just not true anymore. The one pocket learning curve for top players used to be years but now it's more like months. If they can execute the shots they can quickly learn to out shoot the "movers".

Yes yes, but I'm not exactly talking about blind movers with white canes and red tips either. :thumbup:


BTW, back to the original thought, I'm really speaking more about gaining game knowledge than I am talking about top players.

 

[sparkle84]

I don't care what game you are talking about -- 14.1 and one-pocket included, picking out the correct shot is not that difficult of a task. It's the execution of the shot that's the hard part.

.

I doubt you spend much time in the 14.1 forum. If you did you'd see posts where people post runs for critique and advice. Many of these are in the 40-50 range. Even though many of them have the shotmaking and position skills to achieve higher runs most of them stay right in that same range. Why? In any one instance an individual might have certain flaws in some facet of their game that stop them but the underlying factor in virtually all of them is poor shot selection and poor angle selection.

Very few people pick this up easily. It can be learned and developed but it's very difficult for most.

With both 14.1 and 9/10 ball execution is required. With 9B some shots are harder, with 14.1 position has to be more precise. It's kind of a wash as far as skill and execution go. Good smart 9B players when faced with a hard shot along with hard position will opt to play safe more often than not.

Which game will produce a better more knowledgeable player all else being equal? Most pros will say 14.1 (except Earl of course).
Take 2 players of roughly equal ability. One's a 9B guy and the other plays primarily 14.1. In most cases the 14.1 guy won't hesitate to play and gamble at 9B but the 9B guy will be very hesitant to gamble at 14.1. Why? Because his weaknesses will be greatly magnified to the point where he would seldom have a chance to win.

 

[BasementDweller]

I doubt you spend much time in the 14.1 forum. If you did you'd see posts where people post runs for critique and advice. Many of these are in the 40-50 range. Even though many of them have the shotmaking and position skills to achieve higher runs most of them stay right in that same range. Why? In any one instance an individual might have certain flaws in some facet of their game that stop them but the underlying factor in virtually all of them is poor shot selection and poor angle selection.

Very few people pick this up easily. It can be learned and developed but it's very difficult for most.

With both 14.1 and 9/10 ball execution is required. With 9B some shots are harder, with 14.1 position has to be more precise. It's kind of a wash as far as skill and execution go. Good smart 9B players when faced with a hard shot along with hard position will opt to play safe more often than not.

Which game will produce a better more knowledgeable player all else being equal? Most pros will say 14.1 (except Earl of course).
Take 2 players of roughly equal ability. One's a 9B guy and the other plays primarily 14.1. In most cases the 14.1 guy won't hesitate to play and gamble at 9B but the 9B guy will be very hesitant to gamble at 14.1. Why? Because his weaknesses will be greatly magnified to the point where he would seldom have a chance to win.

I spend some time in the 14.1 forum and I stand by my belief about that game. Certainly, there is knowledge to be gained about pattern play and all that (working with key balls, insurance balls, etc.), but what I think limits a player's straight pool runs more than anything is missed balls and those misses come about because players get out of line and move outside of their ball pocketing comfort zone. Of course you can say - well if they new the right shot to play they wouldn't miss so many balls. I just don't see it that way anymore. If you take a 20 or 30 ball runner and infuse them with Mosconi's knowledge of 14.1 what do you think you will get? I think you will get a player that will more consistently run 20 or 30 balls and maybe start hitting some 40's. That's about it. Their stroke will still let them down as soon as they move just a bit out of their comfort zone.

Now if you take a guy that can crush the 9 ball ghost and get him to start playing 14.1 he will certainly be frustrated at first but if he actually is interested in the game and studies it a bit he will quickly start making acceptable runs. In a month or two he will break 50 and so on.

You see I believe the game is much more about the stroke than about knowledge. The knowledge of the game comes naturally once the stroke is ready for it. What I've found works the best for me is constantly working on the stroke and this part might surprise you -- playing 14.1. You probably think that sounds contradictory but it's not. I've found 14.1 to be the best way to practice my cue ball control -- it's not really an intellectual exercise for me. The original poster and I aren't really that far apart.

So just stroke building and 14.1 practice for me -- well coupled with working on my break and a few other 9 ball specific shots.

 

[3andstop]

I think if we start defining what is a good stroke, and how to maintain it and self control through the range of speeds and englishes, we may find ourselves coming full circle to the original inspiration for me writing this thread, explaining how best to be consistent running your first and subsequent 9 ball racks.

The fact that I dislike the monotony of the 9 ball game may put a slightly bitter twinge to my descriptions, but I think the fact remains you need solid fundamentals which include both the physical side of the game as well as the focus and concentration, and I strongly believe 14.1 offers the best opportunity to get in sync with those things.

I hung around a lot of pool rooms when I was younger, I even owned a pool room with 18 GCs.

My mental image of a person struggling to get through their first rack of 9 ball is a younger person who doesn't yet understand the importance of a natural repeatable stroke, alignment, mindset and execution. Doesn't understand the intricacy of caroms or the physics behind altering their lines. Every shot shows signs of a slightly different stroke, perhaps off parallel to the table, maybe more poky, or even too soft almost doggy. Strokes all over the map hunting for the answers.

Get ready for a crazy analogy for 9 ball and 14.1.

That old joke comes to mind with the father and son bull standing at the edge of a mountain range, looking down at all the cows grazing in the pasture below. The son says, "dad, lets run down there and have sex with a cow". The father says, "no son, lets walk down there and have sex with em all."

I also maintain that pounding balls all over the table chasing after a particular number on a ball is the long road to a stable well balanced stroke as well as a thirst for understanding the finer points of clusters and developing shots.

 

[pletho]

I think if we start defining what is a good stroke, and how to maintain it and self control through the range of speeds and englishes, we may find ourselves coming full circle to the original inspiration for me writing this thread, explaining how best to be consistent running your first and subsequent 9 ball racks.

The fact that I dislike the monotony of the 9 ball game may put a slightly bitter twinge to my descriptions, but I think the fact remains you need solid fundamentals which include both the physical side of the game as well as the focus and concentration, and I strongly believe 14.1 offers the best opportunity to get in sync with those things.

I hung around a lot of pool rooms when I was younger, I even owned a pool room with 18 GCs.

My mental image of a person struggling to get through their first rack of 9 ball is a younger person who doesn't yet understand the importance of a natural repeatable stroke, alignment, mindset and execution. Doesn't understand the intricacy of caroms or the physics behind altering their lines. Every shot shows signs of a slightly different stroke, perhaps off parallel to the table, maybe more poky, or even too soft almost doggy. Strokes all over the map hunting for the answers.

Get ready for a crazy analogy for 9 ball and 14.1.

That old joke comes to mind with the father and son bull standing at the edge of a mountain range, looking down at all the cows grazing in the pasture below. The son says, "dad, lets run down there and have sex with a cow". The father says, "no son, lets walk down there and have sex with em all."

I also maintain that pounding balls all over the table chasing after a particular number on a ball is the long road to a stable well balanced stroke as well as a thirst for understanding the finer points of clusters and developing shots.

A good stroke doesn't mean you will make all your shots, even if you have a great stroke, but no mental fortitude, focus, and concentration, you still miss. You've got to have focus, concentration, and you have got to believe you'll make the shot.