Best 14:1 Player Ever-John Schmidt or Willie Mosconi?

[arnaldo]

The story I've heard is a fire at Willies house destroyed all the film of him.
I always thought that maybe some where in a Brunswick building or a former Brunswick employee has some old forgotten films.
It's also possible that Brunswick tossed it out at one point in time.

I attended countless occasions (more than 30) of Mosconi's exhibition performances, and some of his rare post-war competitive performances.

Willie generally insisted to venue hosts that no unauthorized hand-held filming be allowed for spectators. He had several career-protective reasons for the caveat, including potential distraction, profiteering, and the potential for capturing what his obsessive (and beneficial) perfectionism would term: unforgivable misjudgments or faulty execution on his part. Meaning less than automaton, flawed-human playing, in his view. A view that gave us a legacy of near-magical runs that made it all look so easy, and exhibiting the logic and sustained excellence so uniquely characteristic of historic Straight Pool.

Arnaldo ~ One day there will definitely be the technology to harmlessly extract and digitalize the memory bank of my kindred geezers -- I foolishly presume to speak for -- who have these precious memories of a nonpareil performance genius mesmerizing spectators.

 

[measureman]

I attended countless occasions (more than 30) of Mosconi's exhibition performances, and some of his rare post-war competitive performances.

Willie generally insisted to venue hosts that no unauthorized hand-held filming be allowed for spectators. He had several career-protective reasons for the caveat, including potential distraction, profiteering, and the potential for capturing what his obsessive (and beneficial) perfectionism would term: unforgivable misjudgments or faulty execution on his part. Meaning less than automaton, flawed-human playing, in his view. A view that gave us a legacy of near-magical runs that made it all look so easy, and exhibiting the logic and sustained excellence so uniquely characteristic of historic Straight Pool.

Arnaldo ~ One day there will definitely be the technology to harmlessly extract and digitalize the memory bank of my kindred geezers -- I foolishly presume to speak for -- who have these precious memories of a nonpareil performance genius mesmerizing spectators.

If you saw over 30 of his exhibitions do you remember any where he just did not play well?
Was he truly human when it came to the game?
I only saw him once in person when I played him and he was flawless.

 

[Z-Nole]

What do you mean by count? He played there for a while and then played somewhere else. The point being made was that it wasn't his 626 table so why even bother arguing about whether that ball "should have" gone in.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I was kidding. Others here seem upset the Shaw table was sold. Gotta strike while the iron is hot, and they did.

 

[Z-Nole]

It invalidates the point the poster of the video wanted to make if it was not even the table John set his record on

Guess he needed one with even bigger pockets. Lol.

In the video it looked like john was a little surprised that 5 went in.

For the record I don’t care about any of the tables measurements. Running 509, 600 or 700 is simply amazing no matter what table it was on.

 

[measureman]

Guess he needed one with even bigger pockets. Lol.

In the video it looked like john was a little surprised that 5 went in.

For the record I don’t care about any of the tables measurements. Running 509, 600 or 700 is simply amazing no matter what table it was on.

You got that right.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Guess he needed one with even bigger pockets. Lol.

In the video it looked like john was a little surprised that 5 went in.

For the record I don’t care about any of the tables measurements. Running 509, 600 or 700 is simply amazing no matter what table it was on.

It's more the balls and cloth. If they scatter with almost no effort you can run balls. You watch some older accu stat videos of straight pool and there are times it is real work to run balls.

They bunch up and a break shot at best opens a portion of the rack. It's a world of difference. On the Jaysons table if two balls came in contact they bounced right apart. As well as the slickess of the
balls makes the pockets play bigger.
I have run over 200 several times and many hundreds under regular pool room conditions. I'm telling you, it
can be a job.

 

[Z-Nole]

It's more the balls and cloth. If they scatter with almost no effort you can run balls. You watch some older accu stat videos of straight pool and there are times it is real work to run balls.

They bunch up and a break shot at best opens a portion of the rack. It's a world of difference. On the Jaysons table if two balls came in contact they bounced right apart. As well as the slickess of the
balls makes the pockets play bigger.
I have run over 200 several times and many hundreds under regular pool room conditions. I'm telling you, it
can be a job.

They were definitely ideal conditions for both JS runs.

 

[arnaldo]

If you saw over 30 of his exhibitions do you remember any where he just did not play well?
Was he truly human when it came to the game?
I only saw him once in person when I played him and he was flawless.

Mosconi played flawlessly in *every* exhibition of his that I attended. All were in the tri-state region of NY-NJ-PA.
And the same was true when he played exhibition/competitive matches that involved non-pro regional "A" players who were rarely on their best game simply because they were facing Willie.

There was only one occasion -- during my 14 years of regularly watching his perfection -- where for extremely understandable reasons his playing rapidly deteriorated as the tournament progressed. I saw all 16 of his pro-player matches in the 1966 14.1 round-robin held in a Burbank building that was a former huge supermarket and was slightly "remodeled" (walls patch-painted, and un-optimal carpeting installed) and the venue hyperbolically advertised as "Burbank's Hall of Champions" for the all-tuxedo event. All Mosconi matches were evening games -- he refused to play afternoon games.

Willie's playing was increasingly rusty and it sadly led to very audible and continual frustration-motivated demands for rule alterations. Willie feuded daily with promoter Arnie Satin.

Joe Balsis beat Willie in the finals (a tie-breaking playoff -- they had equal 14-2, win-loss records for the round-robin games). Willie was 53 years old, in *far* from ideal health or playing condition.

Willie's two losses came at the hands of Irving Crane, then Cisero Murphy. (Followed, as mentioned, by his loss to Balsis in the final match of the event.) As Arnie Satin handed the 2nd place Runner-up trophy to Mosconi, Arnie quite audibly (and aggressively) said to him with smirky grin: "How does it feel to lose a tournament, Willie?" -- Fighting words, as it turned out. I can flesh out the actually disrespectful and often mis-reported details of what ensued, if anyone's interested.

Arnaldo

 

[middleofnowhere]

They were definitely ideal conditions for both JS runs.

As it should be. Something that would be considered tournament conditions. No one is really asking them to play under Miami pool room conditions on a muggy summer night.
I remember being at U of M in Miami with Jimmy Caras and it was so bad you could not run two racks of balls. A break shot the balls just stuck together. They had put new cloth on the table for the exhibition and it was like a wet army blanket.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Mosconi played flawlessly in *every* exhibition of his that I attended. All were in the tri-state region of NY-NJ-PA.
And the same was true when he played exhibition/competitive matches that involved non-pro regional "A" players who were rarely on their best game simply because they were facing Willie.

There was only one occasion -- during my 14 years of regularly watching his perfection -- where for extremely understandable reasons his playing rapidly deteriorated as the tournament progressed. I saw all 16 of his pro-player matches in the 1966 14.1 round-robin held in a Burbank building that was a former huge supermarket and was slightly "remodeled" (walls patch-painted, and un-optimal carpeting installed) and the venue hyperbolically advertised as "Burbank's Hall of Champions" for the all-tuxedo event. All Mosconi matches were evening games -- he refused to play afternoon games.

Willie's playing was increasingly rusty and it sadly led to very audible and continual frustration-motivated demands for rule alterations. Willie feuded daily with promoter Arnie Satin.

Joe Balsis beat Willie in the finals (a tie-breaking playoff -- they had equal 14-2, win-loss records for the round-robin games). Willie was 53 years old, in *far* from ideal health or playing condition.

Willie's two losses came at the hands of Irving Crane, then Cisero Murphy. (Followed, as mentioned, by his loss to Balsis in the final match of the event.) As Arnie Satin handed the 2nd place Runner-up trophy to Mosconi, Arnie quite audibly (and aggressively) said to him with smirky grin: "How does it feel to lose a tournament, Willie?" -- Fighting words, as it turned out. I can flesh out the actually disrespectful and often mis-reported details of what ensued, if anyone's interested.

Arnaldo

Yes, we want to hear the story. DiLiberto told me something about it. Something about a foul or three fouls and Mosconi argued he didn't play by that rule or something. I heard it almost came to blows.

 

[Nostroke]

Yes, we want to hear the story. DiLiberto told me something about it. Something about a foul or three fouls and Mosconi argued he didn't play by that rule or something. I heard it almost came to blows.

I heard it came to 'one blow' and then i heard there was no blow so id like to hear it also. I'm guessing 'no blow'. A certain pro with the initials JR, i believe said there was a punch by Willie and i believe Danny said-that pro wasn't even there. In conclusion, I'd like to hear his version also.

 

[middleofnowhere]

It's more the balls and cloth. If they scatter with almost no effort you can run balls. You watch some older accu stat videos of straight pool and there are times it is real work to run balls.

They bunch up and a break shot at best opens a portion of the rack. It's a world of difference. On the Jaysons table if two balls came in contact they bounced right apart. As well as the slickess of the
balls makes the pockets play bigger.
I have run over 200 several times and many hundreds under regular pool room conditions. I'm telling you, it
can be a job.

I don't like to just say things without being sure I know what I am talking about. I just went to the facebook page that has the 5 days of runs by Jayson still up. I began watching skipping forward to just break shots. My assessment may have been understated. Break after break balls scatter effortlessly. One break he is much too high on the rack and can only contact one front ball. Balls go everywhere regardless.

I don't know, this just doesn't happen. I hate to say it, but I think almost any straight pool player with those balls and cloth on that table would at the very least set a personal best. Go there and watch draw your own conclusion. I think you will kind of agree with me.

 

[measureman]

Mosconi played flawlessly in *every* exhibition of his that I attended. All were in the tri-state region of NY-NJ-PA.
And the same was true when he played exhibition/competitive matches that involved non-pro regional "A" players who were rarely on their best game simply because they were facing Willie.

There was only one occasion -- during my 14 years of regularly watching his perfection -- where for extremely understandable reasons his playing rapidly deteriorated as the tournament progressed. I saw all 16 of his pro-player matches in the 1966 14.1 round-robin held in a Burbank building that was a former huge supermarket and was slightly "remodeled" (walls patch-painted, and un-optimal carpeting installed) and the venue hyperbolically advertised as "Burbank's Hall of Champions" for the all-tuxedo event. All Mosconi matches were evening games -- he refused to play afternoon games.

Willie's playing was increasingly rusty and it sadly led to very audible and continual frustration-motivated demands for rule alterations. Willie feuded daily with promoter Arnie Satin.

Joe Balsis beat Willie in the finals (a tie-breaking playoff -- they had equal 14-2, win-loss records for the round-robin games). Willie was 53 years old, in *far* from ideal health or playing condition.

Willie's two losses came at the hands of Irving Crane, then Cisero Murphy. (Followed, as mentioned, by his loss to Balsis in the final match of the event.) As Arnie Satin handed the 2nd place Runner-up trophy to Mosconi, Arnie quite audibly (and aggressively) said to him with smirky grin: "How does it feel to lose a tournament, Willie?" -- Fighting words, as it turned out. I can flesh out the actually disrespectful and often mis-reported details of what ensued, if anyone's interested.

Arnaldo

I see you are a tri-state guy.It's a long shot but maybe you saw me play Willie in a newly opened room in Toms River N.J.
It was 1964 and I think it was spring or fall,cant remember but it was warm.
Do you remember a real good player Neptune Joe Frady?
I knew him well and played a lot of pool with him.
Sadly he passed a couple of years ago.

 

[Dan White]

Willie's two losses came at the hands of Irving Crane, then Cisero Murphy. (Followed, as mentioned, by his loss to Balsis in the final match of the event.) As Arnie Satin handed the 2nd place Runner-up trophy to Mosconi, Arnie quite audibly (and aggressively) said to him with smirky grin: "How does it feel to lose a tournament, Willie?" -- Fighting words, as it turned out. I can flesh out the actually disrespectful and often mis-reported details of what ensued, if anyone's interested.

Arnaldo

You sure know how to keep your audience hanging!

 

[easy-e]

Evidently, you didn’t have the expertise to assess Mosconi’s abilities, then nor now.

Thank God we have you here to be the authority.

 

[SmoothStroke]

True Story,,,, Brunswick was grooming Willie to run against LBJ for President in 1964.
He convinced them this wasn't for him, he didn't want quit to during his run.
He was also considered for the first man to walk on the moon.

 

[easy-e]

Good! Reach up high for help, its all over your head and talent level, anyway.

Totally.

 

[arnaldo]

I heard it came to 'one blow' and then i heard there was no blow so id like to hear it also. I'm guessing 'no blow'. A certain pro with the initials JR, i believe said there was a punch by Willie and i believe Danny said-that pro wasn't even there. In conclusion, I'd like to hear his version also.

Yes, we want to hear the story. DiLiberto told me something about it. Something about a foul or three fouls and Mosconi argued he didn't play by that rule or something. I heard it almost came to blows.

As I mentioned, the promoter loudly said to Mosconi with a smirky grin: "How does it feel to lose a tournament, Willie?"

I was standing with two of my pool buddies about 10 or 12 feet away from Willie and the promoter (Arnie Satin).

Willie's face looked livid and deadly serious, enraged by the promoter's nasty, taunting, and ridiculing comment. Willie shouted back: (exact words):

"Stick that trophy up your ass!"

Arnie handed the trophy to a bystander, blasted a couple of obscenities at Willie and then even louder: "Nobody talks to me that way. Nobody!"

Both were steaming now. They rushed towards each other . . . squared-off with fists clenched -- and swung their arms wildly for a few seconds.

But no real punches ever landed. Bystanders instantly pulled the two men apart very easily.

(Willie and Arnie were both quite small men -- roughly about the same height -- and were obviously middle-aged men, typically devoid of street-fighting experience.) Tiny tuxedo-ed enemies who were likely both glad their one-rounder was broken up quickly.

Arnaldo ~ Knowing about Willie's all-too-recent health issues: two heart attacks and a stroke -- my buddies and I were equally glad the men were rapidly separated.

 

[arnaldo]

I see you are a tri-state guy.It's a long shot but maybe you saw me play Willie in a newly opened room in Toms River N.J.
It was 1964 and I think it was spring or fall,cant remember but it was warm.
Do you remember a real good player Neptune Joe Frady?
I knew him well and played a lot of pool with him.
Sadly he passed a couple of years ago.

I knew "of" Neptune Joe -- everybody 100 miles-around (and more) was aware of his superlative skills and heart.

Your question prompts me to contemplate that during my 70+ years of playing, spectating, and event-officiating, my tally of personally "knews" amounts to about a thousand gents and ladies with whom I've enjoyed meals and extensive conversations, and who had/have memorable skills.

My lifetime "knew ofs" would be in the tens of thousands. I'm certain that other still-addicted codgers would have similar, cherished & gratifying tallies, and instantly-recalled great days and nights in the sweet, unique (and multi-sensory) ambience of our beloved sport.

Unfailingly over the years when I was at major tournaments watching the best-of-the-best and the dazzling newest contenders, there was always a moment when I'd say to myself (or to another excited spectator): "There's no place on Earth I'd rather be, than right here, and right now."

Arnaldo

 

[ShootingArts]

The old video of Mosconi is awesome but only if you are a pool player. Willie ran rack after rack while never pocketing a ball a bar room banger couldn't pocket. The magic of course is that he always had those shots. Watching Willie it was easy for most anyone who didn't play to believe they could buy a table and be stringing hundred ball runs in a few weeks!

Watching video of Willie changed my game. Nobody before or since impacted my game like that. Willie Mosconi changed my ideas of what was possible on a pool table. Those putting down Mr Mosconi and the players of that era probably never saw them in their prime.

Hu