Didn't Efren win the Maine Event straight pool tournament hosted by Grady, or am I mistaken?
Best Cue Sport Player of All Time
- Thread starter jason
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Right on, Bill. I interpreted Jason's original question as wanting picks of which player was the best player who played several different cue games. Efren reportedly is a decent 3C player, but nowhere near great. Worst excelled and won major tournaments in all disciplines. However, if the proposition is who was the greatest player to pick up a cue in any cue game, then there is no answer.hemicudas said:
Doc
freddy the beard said:
just don't say he's a world class 3c player. he's not. as for balkline,,,,, maybe sang lee stunk in balkline/straight rail. i'll ask a friend who knew sang lee well. there must have been a handicap. i cannot believe they played straight up, especially 3c. that would have been just dumb on efren's part.
great story, though, and one i never heard. efren is amazing.
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Efren and Sang Lee
I never said Efren was a world class 3c player. I also never said Efren played Sang Lee 3c straight up. Sang Lee spotted him, I forgot how much. But there was no handicap when they played the other Billiard games. Incredibly, the games he really dominated Sang Lee was 1 cushion and 2 cushion billiards.
the Beard
bruin70 said:
I never said Efren was a world class 3c player. I also never said Efren played Sang Lee 3c straight up. Sang Lee spotted him, I forgot how much. But there was no handicap when they played the other Billiard games. Incredibly, the games he really dominated Sang Lee was 1 cushion and 2 cushion billiards.
the Beard
harold worst................
Wow what a thought Harold Worst and Efren palying a onepocket match..................lol. When i think of Harold worst i think of a non safe playing run out artist. If only that game was possible.............freddy the beard said:
Just in case you didnt' know, unlike 3C, Efren is an accomplished tournament winning 18.1 balkline champion in the Philippines. I think at one time, he was playing equal amounts of balkline and rotation.bruin70 said:
Part of his mastery of the cueball patterns is as much from balkline play as anything.
Fred
Efren was the Karambola King one time in the Philippines.Cornerman said:
Straight-rail though, not Balkline.
Rodulfo Luat was also a Karambola King.
It would be nice to have an authoritative answer. Straight rail and 18.1 balkline are really very different games.JoeyInCali said:
freddy the beard said:
There isn't really a fair comparison between the two players at 3-cushion - since Efren wasn't in Sang's league. 3-cushion players that play at the blistering averages Sang used to shoot would just run circles around shooters with Efren's average. The right handicap for the "long-haul" between Efren and Sang would probably have been at least double the points, to be a fair game.
As for regular carom, Sang Lee grew up playing the Korean 4-ball straight rail game and was a champion for many years on a smaller, slower, unheated table with the restrictive corner balklines. In this game he used to run out easily and consistently off the break, manipulating the balls into a "nurse" and then nurse the balls around the table without end. On the heated 5x10 european tables, I saw him practice straight-rail once in a while, but he never played seriously since he was concentrating on competitive 3-cushion by the time he came to the US.
But Sang, like Efren, never competed at on a world level at the small carom games (like Ceulemans or Caudron). Not to say that Efren or Sang didn't both have the raw talent to hit with the best if they tried - but it would be a far cry for either of them to compete with specialists like Caudron (or even Ceulemans) at any balkline game without first getting many years of experience. Having played Sang Lee at all the carom games for many years, I personally believe that if he really applied himself to compete against the world-class balkline players - he would have a better chance at it than Efren would. That's just my personal opinion.
I heard about a 1-cushion match between Sang Lee and Efren in Chicago where Efren wins. Not to take anything away from Efren who plays fine caroms, but rumor has it that Sang was very sleep deprived during this encounter... Alas, I wasn't present to witness the game - I wish I was. I've played Sang Lee 1-cushion in practice in NY, and he was really, really good. Efren must have played very well. It's too bad we'll never see a rematch.
Regardless, based on one match or one day, I don't think anyone could fairly state that any player "dominates" another in any of the small carom disciplines (straight/balkline/1-cushion) until they have played thousands of points. These games are normally played to hundreds of points (300-400) for a reason and that still that isn't enough to see who is clearly better. You would have to look at the overall average and performance to know who dominates.
Accu-stats caught an impromptu exhibition (held at Sang Lee's old room back in the 90's) between Caudron and Peter DeBacker (european balkline champion) on tape. It was a short 150 pt "demonstration" game and DeBacker runs over 100+ and out. The fact, however, is that Caudron is a much better player than DeBacker ever will be. One could rightfully state that in straight, balkline (any version) and one-cushion, Caudron dominates all others. If you just watch him "nurse" the 18 inch line for hundreds of points during World Championship competition and you'll understand what I mean - IMO, no one (in any billiard game) has better millimeter-control over the cue ball than this guy does playing balkline.
In the 2003 World Championships of 18.2 (47.2 cm) balkline there was a player who was actually averaging better than Frederic Caudron (after the preliminary round robins and going into the finals). The games where 300 points (equal innings). This guy won the lag against Caudron, and made the break - but proceeded to miraculously miscue on the 3rd shot (I think the threat of Caudron running out was too great and made him nervous!) Then Caudron got up and ran 300 and out - setting a new world record (average of 126 pts/inning). His world-record performance was caught on DVD.
Did Sang and Efren actually play a game of "2-cushion"? I'm interested to know what rules they played under. As far as I know, "2-cushion" billiards is not a standard carom billiard game played anywhere in the world. Was it "2 or more cushions" or was it "2 and only 2"? Interesting saftey/position considerations in the latter...
I think that many pool/billiard players would do themselves a great service for their game - if they developed a background in straight-rail/balkline in order to obtain finer cue ball control. Efren has obviously has done a lot of billiard work which gives him a definitive edge while playing pool (nudging balls, opening clusters, kick-safeties, soft-masses, etc). Sang's touch and position play in 3-cushion game obviously developed from his straight-rail prowess accumulated during his early years. Their acute cue-ball experience is mostly foreign to pool players that may have been limited to 9-ball/bar-table-only beginnings. The same is true for American carom players that have jumped directly into 3-cushion - bypassing all of the nuances of the basic games.
-Ira
Cornerman said:
18.1 balkline is much harder than 18.2 balkline. I don't think anyone can really 18.1 well until they are very proficient at 18.2 since there is no room for a "corrective" shot - and you must get on the right side of the carom ball on each position shot.
If his game is 18.1, then he must be good at 18.2 - I would love to watch a tape (anyone have videos from Manilla?)
Also missing from the list are John Roberts Sr. and Jr. (No relation to the US Supreme, so far as I know.) Their game was English Billiards. And how about Alfredo de Oro? He surely has to be considered above Mosconi in any all-around retrospective. If you believe McGoorty, de Oro was also the sort who would do anything required to scratch out a win.jason said:
Unfortunately, billiard history is so poorly taught in American schools these days that you should probably restrict the list to living players. I'm waiting for someone to nominate Rudolph Wanderone.
That is probably this tape: http://www.accu-stats.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=000482iralee said:
Some things to consider,
Alison Fisher and Karen Corr reached World Champion status in both pool and snooker, what males have ever done that?
During one mixed competition, Mizerak lost to Steve Davis in Snooker AND straight pool, beating him in nine ball. Around the same timeframe he also failed to qualify for the Snooker World Championship.
For all the talk about Efren and his greatness in snooker and 3 cushion, I've never heard of him entering a major tourney in either discilpine, having said that, in a long match, he dominates pool like nobody I've seen in any cuesport. I actually believe top pros literally fear him.
Alison Fisher and Karen Corr reached World Champion status in both pool and snooker, what males have ever done that?
During one mixed competition, Mizerak lost to Steve Davis in Snooker AND straight pool, beating him in nine ball. Around the same timeframe he also failed to qualify for the Snooker World Championship.
For all the talk about Efren and his greatness in snooker and 3 cushion, I've never heard of him entering a major tourney in either discilpine, having said that, in a long match, he dominates pool like nobody I've seen in any cuesport. I actually believe top pros literally fear him.