Best Cue Sport Player of All Time

It's easy to forget the ladies when discussing the best athletes of any given sport.

Fisher and Corr have recently accomplished what few males have ever even attempted, excellence in two disciplines at the highest level. One might argue that the talent pool in women's snooker is tiny, maybe so, but that's not their fault.

Male snooker events have offered millions in recent years to its champions, yet how many pool pros do you know who have attempted to cash in on any of them?
 
Many years

Irving Crane won pool and billliard titles for over 50 years.
He came in 7th in the 1941 worlds 3 C tourney playing against Cockran and Hoppe and won the World's straight pool title in the 70's.
Not bad for an old straight pool player.
 
freddy the beard said:
If you think Effy was not a great all-around billiard player, consider this: The great champion, Sang Lee could only beat Efren playing 3 cushion! He couldnt win playing straight rail, balkline, or 1 cushion or 2 cushion billiards. Sang Lee, a man with a lot of gamble, tried Efren these games unsuccessfully at Chris's Billiards in Chicago when they were both living there. My dream game is Efren playing 1pocket with Harold Worst.

the Beard
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Freddie,

Were you there in Johnson City the year Worst (with Beenie coaching him) beat the "gaff" game with 21 balls? He had to run as many as 18 to 20 balls some games. And these balls are all jammed together. It gets pretty crowded with 21 balls all on one end of the table.

It was one of the most amazing things I ever saw, and is cemented in my memory. The only player I can conceive of doing this today would be Efren. And he wouldn't like this challenge. I would say that it is about ten times as hard as running a rack of Rotation. Ronnie, Lassiter, Jersey Red and many others had NO chance at this game.

I was there, sweating it all the way. I forgot the guys name who brought the game, but Vernon Elliott was assisting him and holding the money. They finally packed up and left, never to return, after Worst won for the third time. It was more than amazing, it was fantastic!
 
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ironman said:
I was in Detroit a few weeks ago and John Henry talked about Worst as if he had super-natural powers.
I didn't realize he died so young.
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I agree with John Henry, whoever he is. Harold was the most feared player on the planet for about five years before he died. No one wanted a piece of him at ANY game!

He is the one American, who had he lived, might have been able to go over and win on the English Snooker Tour. Every game he tried, he mastered rather quickly. Kind of like Efren.

I saw him beat Cornbread in the Snooker Championships at the Michigan State Fairgrounds in 1963. And he played great, running one century that I saw. Red beat him in the One Pocket finals I might add. And that was a new game for Worst at that time.
 
bells said:
Wow what a thought Harold Worst and Efren palying a onepocket match..................lol. When i think of Harold worst i think of a non safe playing run out artist. If only that game was possible.............
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Believe me when I tell you, he could control Whitey every bit as good as Efren, and definitely had a more powerful stroke.
 
It's very hard to compare players from different eras because unlike so many sports pool keeps very few statistics. Plus, many of the stories about the greats, especially in pool, relate to how they matched up gambling, rather than in tournaments. I've said in another thread that, in my opinion, the players of today, at all sports, are better than the players of yesterday, mostly due to the fact that they had the older players to learn from.

However, the best manner of comparison, or at least the best we have access to, is in the records of the players. From that point of view you have to look at the ultra-dominance of guys like Mosconi and Joe Davis, and particularly Davis. Though I think Steve Davis or Stephen Hendry became better players, Joe Davis has the greatest record perhaps in the history of cue sports, winning the world snooker championships for 20 straight years! During that span he had a perfect 100% match record.

Now you can talk all you want about great players, but think about that. He never lost a MATCH, not once, for 20 YEARS!! For as great as anyone else may have played, or plays now, that is unparalelled. Even Mosconi's legendary talents at straight pool, or Efren's at one pocket, don't compare to that.

Another great accomplishment is Irving Crane winning world straight pool championships over (I think) five decades.
 
jay helfert said:
Freddie,

Were you there in Johnson City the year Worst (with Beenie coaching him) beat the "gaff" game with 21 balls? He had to run as many as 18 to 20 balls some games. And these balls are all jammed together. It gets pretty crowded with 21 balls all on one end of the table.
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JH,
Could you describe the rules for the "gaff" game. I've played some straight pool drills with as many as 30 balls on the table; I think I'd like to try the "gaff" game. Thanks.
 
I think in order to determine a more definitive answer, you have to take into consideration the level of competition...

It's one thing to dominate a game or two especially if the fields are weak, but it's another to dominate several fields consisting of a multitude of incredibly strong players.
Let's face it, if there's nobody any good playing the game, then holding the championship trophy just doesn't mean as much.

So I would start looking for the strongest player by looking for the strongest eras in pool, billiards and snooker and then find the player that dominated/dominates that era and compare and contrast appropriately.

Also let's keep in mind, that the question was "best all around!" Dominating only one game would pretty much leave you out of the running regardless of how much you dominated that discipline.
 
Please explain something about Worst.

He was born in 1929 correct?

Mosconi was world champ im pocket billiards from 1941-1956.

Hoppe won 3c world titles from 1947-1952.

Did Worst bot compete in those tourneys? He would have been in his
prime no?
 
gromulan said:
Now you can talk all you want about great players, but think about that. He never lost a MATCH, not once, for 20 YEARS!! For as great as anyone else may have played, or plays now, that is unparalelled. Even Mosconi's legendary talents at straight pool, or Efren's at one pocket, don't compare to that.
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I'm not sure it wasn't 27 years. But to keep things in perspective, like it's billiards forerunner, I think the world snooker championship that Davis contested was generally against a single named challenger, and usually a billards specialist at that. It wasn't necessarilly held every year either. His greatness was in setting the standard and defining what could be achieved, and he certainly stood head and shoulders above his contemporaries. But if he walked into a modern day tournament he would get slaughtered.

We probably owe the basic snooker stance to Joe Davis though. Even as reigning world (English) billiards champion the magazines of the day extolled amateurs not to copy his trademark crouch, with chin tucked to cue.

Boro Nut
 
In the modern era, Steve Davis and Ronnie O'Sullivan have attempted a second discipline at the highest level, to me, that speaks volumes about their overall cue capabilities.

The stories of Reyes beating Sang Lee and Blohmdal running 100 balls in straight pool are all wonderfull, but I've always wondered why such players have never chosen to enter the big tourneys in the other disciplines.

Take Reyes for example, in the past 5 years alone he's made close to a million bucks from tournaments, plus he reportedly has big sponsorships/endorsement deals in the Phillipines. Surely he could
afford to take some time to work on his snooker game and try his hand at the miliions available in the UK, no? Or how bout a major 3C tourney just for fun, I mean if he can beat Sang Lee....

Blohmdal is another guy whose name gets tossed around as the best cueman ever, I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine he's made a few bucks, and he's in Europe, why not take a chance on the snooker tour, or any of the major pool events now in Europe? Same with Ceulemans.

That's why I respect Sullivan and Davis so much, they are millionaires who dominated their sport and are now trying to prove themselves all over again. Former world champ Mark Williams also has tried his hand at pool.
 
Boro Nut said:
I'm not sure it wasn't 27 years. But to keep things in perspective, like it's billiards forerunner, I think the world snooker championship that Davis contested was generally against a single named challenger, and usually a billards specialist at that. It wasn't necessarilly held every year either. His greatness was in setting the standard and defining what could be achieved, and he certainly stood head and shoulders above his contemporaries. But if he walked into a modern day tournament he would get slaughtered.

We probably owe the basic snooker stance to Joe Davis though. Even as reigning world (English) billiards champion the magazines of the day extolled amateurs not to copy his trademark crouch, with chin tucked to cue.

Boro Nut
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I'm pretty sure it was 20 years - 1927-1947, though there were no championships during the war years. I agree that some of the 'tournaments' were really challenge matches, with players competing to face Joe, but a lot of them weren't.

Here's an excerpt from his wikipedia page...

He helped to organise the first snooker world championship in 1927 and won the tournament by beating Tom Dennis 20-10, for which he won £6 10s. He went on to win every world championship until 1946, when he retired from the event, but continued to play professionally until 1964.

Joe was also the World Professional Billiards Champion from 1928 until 1932.

He achieved the first officially recognised maximum break of 147 in 1955 in an exhibition match at Leicester Square and was officially beaten on level terms just four times in his career.
 
smashmouth said:
Please explain something about Worst.

He was born in 1929 correct?

Mosconi was world champ im pocket billiards from 1941-1956.

Hoppe won 3c world titles from 1947-1952.

Did Worst bot compete in those tourneys? He would have been in his
prime no?
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Ok, i'll try. Harold was a Three Cushion player in the 50's. And at age 24 in 1954, he traveled south to Argentina and won the world title, beating Enrique Navaro I believe. Hoppe may or may not have been in that event. Byrne or Shamos could answer that. All I remember hearing was that the young Worst won in front of a hostile crowd and had to be escorted out of Argentina the next day. I told you the guy was fearless.
 
Williebetmore said:
JH,
Could you describe the rules for the "gaff" game. I've played some straight pool drills with as many as 30 balls on the table; I think I'd like to try the "gaff" game. Thanks.
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Here you go. 21 balls numbered 1 thru 21. They are racked on the spot with a sixth row of six balls. All the low number balls are put closest to the players corner pocket. All the high number balls are on the opposite side of the rack. A player is given a designated number to shoot at. In Worst's case it was the highest possible, 200. Even players like Ronnie or Kelly got to shoot at 180.

Then three pills are drawn from a large jar containing 50 pills numbered 1 thru 50. You then add up the total of the three pills and subtract that from 200, and you have the total number Worst must make. These totals are based on the actual number on each ball. Let's say he draws the 15, the 22 and the 27. That's a total of 64. Subtract 64 from 200 and you have 136. Now he must make a total of 136 points to win the game. There is a total of 232 points in play. To make 136 he must make all the balls from 1 to 16 or any combination of balls that add up to 136. The shooter got from 5-1 to 8-1 on the money, depending on how strong they played. That's how tough it was. And no one did it once until Harold and Beenie came along. And in the end he did it three in a row for 5K a pop (5-1 on a thousand).

So in every game Harold was shooting at a different number, depending on what piils he drew out of the jar. Needless to say he must run most of the balls in one pocket without missing. If he scratched on the break it was a loss and there was no cue ball in hand after the break. You played them where they lied. I'd like to let Efren play this game all day and night and bet whatever he wants. I will promise to bring 100K! And that's no joke if someone wants to call him. He gets 5-1 and shoots at 200. Simple! He can bust me at that game.

So now everyone can tell me about comparing players from different eras. I know what I saw and to this day it was the greatest exhibition of pool I've ever seen. Several games Harold had to run as many as 18 or 19 balls to win. And he did! This is one reason why I call him the best I ever saw.
 
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Jay,
I know you've seen far more players over a longer period of time than I have, so I believe you about Harold Worst. Unfortunately, he was before my time.

I've seen most of the top current players and I think Efren is the best all around (I've even seen him play 3C, and he was fantastic.)

The most raw talent I've ever seen from anyone holding a cue was that of Ronnie O'Sullivan. I was at one of his snooker matches in the 90's. If he concentrates more on pool, I think he's capable of beating anyone.
 
Cuaba said:
Jay,
I know you've seen far more players over a longer period of time than I have, so I believe you about Harold Worst. Unfortunately, he was before my time.

I've seen most of the top current players and I think Efren is the best all around (I've even seen him play 3C, and he was fantastic.)

The most raw talent I've ever seen from anyone holding a cue was that of Ronnie O'Sullivan. I was at one of his snooker matches in the 90's. If he concentrates more on pool, I think he's capable of beating anyone.
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I've heard this from a lot of people. That is one reason I may go to Sheffield this year for the World Snooker Championships. The best new talent I've seen out there is Dennis Orcullo. He looks like the real deal to me.
 
jay helfert said:
The best new talent I've seen out there is Dennis Orcullo. He looks like the real deal to me.
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You need a new HD television then. Failing that, Holyfield is the bare chested one in the baggy shorts.

Boro Nut
 
21 ball game

Freddy has a chapter on this game in his book "Banking With The Beard". According to him a man named Brier Spivey was offering the proposition game to all the players. No one beat the game at first, until Marshall Carpenter
ran all 21 balls ,then followed that up by running 20.

Carpenter was the only player to beat Spivey's proposition until Harold Worst and Eddie Taylor came along. Also according to the book bets paid 10 to 1 .
 
Hambone said:
Freddy has a chapter on this game in his book "Banking With The Beard". According to him a man named Brier Spivey was offering the proposition game to all the players. No one beat the game at first, until Marshall Carpenter
ran all 21 balls ,then followed that up by running 20.

Carpenter was the only player to beat Spivey's proposition until Harold Worst and Eddie Taylor came along. Also according to the book bets paid 10 to 1 .
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You are right. Spivey was the guy with the game. And Vernon was assisting him. I only saw Worst do it. Taylor was unsuccesfull when I was watching.
 
Kelly and Worst

In the 70s, Eddie Kelly stated (to me and others)that Harold Worst was the only guy he knew that he couldnt beat playing Nineball. Consider, Kelly had already gone to Elizabeth City, NC with Ronnie and played Wimpy for a week to a draw in Wimpy's home pool room.
In the Spivey proposition, Worst, Squirrel and Taylor were eventually all barred from the game. However to encourage action from the weaker players, Spivey would allow the man shooting to call in anybody he wished to shoot 1 shot in the run as a pinch-hitter. The point total for the average good player was 160. Naturally, everybody used Worst to shoot the impossible straight-in and Eddie Taylor to shoot the impossible bank that would keep the run going. Worst and Taylor made so many ridiculous shots that this practice too was soon discontinued by Spivey.

(Jay, I dont think there were that many pills (1 to 50) in the bottle. I think there were only 21. )

the Beard
 
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