Better, topic (Veneers)

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I will give the same answer I give to customers. I can do them either way when you custom order a cue.
As for myself I lean a little more twards the stacked method. Reason being, with really long fine points the color looks more vibrant in the tips of the points because you are looking at one solid piece of veneer at the tip. It is a very small diffrence. Other than that I really do not have a preference on which style I do.
 
LGSM3 said:
Mike, this is the best thread i've seen in a while. I completely agree with most everything you and Ryan have said.

you asked how people FEEL, i feel that if someone puts enough pride into either method then the result will not be open for ridicule.

Theres no possible way in my opinion that mitered is "more professional"

theres a couple of guys who have chimed in "won't name names" that have more than a huge following and get top dollar for cues. If they suddenly started stacking there veneers i don't think for one second that it would change peoples opinion or the value of there cues. If anything the bandwagon would say that mitering is for hacks.

yes mitering veneers is way easy, but the guy who says its easy to do a good job at it! should accept my offering of a plane ticket and a handful of cash to come show me.

Yes, i miter veneers, i hate it, its more than very hard to do it right.

think the post is especially good for people starting out, to know they don't have to do the obvious because everybodies doin it.

one more thing, 4-5 veneers being the easiest to miter, 3 being a little more difficult...2 ? gotta stack em, atleast i do or it looks like hell....anybody successfully mitered 2 veneers? not talking about .060's or bigger
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what tools do you have in your shop and I might take you on that offer
 
Veneers

qbilder said:
I don't get the mitered veneers being more professional. Somebody's gonna have to explain that one to me.

For anybody who thinks mitered is more traditional, I know a fellow with a handful of Gus Szams that have overlapping veneers. One of them is a GSB & two of the points have mitered veneers while the other two have overlapping veneers. It's the neatest thing I have seen in an old cue & by most people likely would go unnoticed. But the fact is the greatest builder in our history overlapped veneers & if it's something he felt comfortable doing, then I am too.
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I digress, but don't think Gus overlapped. I've seen some of his I would swear where, but talking to people who knew him, they say no. I think what you are seeing is that Gus didn't pre glue the two mitered veneers together. He put the sides in and then the point stock and then squeezed the devil out of it. Sometimes the one side of the veneer would push the other out of the way and just crush into the v bottom. Just a different way of doing it.

By the way, this is what AZ should be all the time.

ML4.jpg
 
I am just starting my collection. I have several cues on order with veneers and I do not care which style the cuemaker decides to do as long as the look very good. I have received a cue in the past where the points were mitered and it looked like it had split ends. Needless to say, I did not accept the cue as is.

This is a great thread Mike... I love reading and learning.


Chris
 
CMD said:
I am just starting my collection. I have several cues on order with veneers and I do not care which style the cuemaker decides to do as long as the look very good. I have received a cue in the past where the points were mitered and it looked like it had split ends. Needless to say, I did not accept the cue as is.

This is a great thread Mike... I love reading and learning.


Chris
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Doing mitered veneers are very much like playing a guitar, very easy to do -badly, much, much harder to do to perfection.

Dick
 
cutter said:
I digress, but don't think Gus overlapped. I've seen some of his I would swear where, but talking to people who knew him, they say no. I think what you are seeing is that Gus didn't pre glue the two mitered veneers together. He put the sides in and then the point stock and then squeezed the devil out of it. Sometimes the one side of the veneer would push the other out of the way and just crush into the v bottom. Just a different way of doing it.

By the way, this is what AZ should be all the time.
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That's possible. They looked pretty clean to be wedged in, tho. I'll give a closer look next time I am at the collector's house. I'll even get some photos if i'm not sure what i'm seeing. Heck, i'll get photos anyway!!!

And I agree 100%. This is the way the forum should be.
 
Is there a chance someone could post pictures (or better yet, a 3x5 card with pictures and diagrams on the back) of the two styles being discussed for those of us less worldly in the matter????


thanks
jim
 
cutter said:
I digress, but don't think Gus overlapped. I've seen some of his I would swear where, but talking to people who knew him, they say no. I think what you are seeing is that Gus didn't pre glue the two mitered veneers together. He put the sides in and then the point stock and then squeezed the devil out of it. Sometimes the one side of the veneer would push the other out of the way and just crush into the v bottom. Just a different way of doing it.

By the way, this is what AZ should be all the time.

ML4.jpg
Click to expand...

Great looking points Steve. This is what mitered points are supposed to look like when finished. When veneers are glued up like these it makes no difference if they are mitered or lapped as the glue line is nearly discernible. Getting results like these are not real difficult but come from attention to detail on a number of steps, anyone of which if not followed, will lead to disappointment in the final outcome. The V cut must be accurate, sharp and clean. The veneers need to be properly prepared before use. The proper glues need to be utilized and probably the most important steps are insuring that the veneers are accurately mitered and clean so as that an absolutely perfectly aligned, 90 deg angle is formed. If these steps are taken the final point, will of coarse, come out perfect. Many more times than not some short cuts are taken or not thought needed and it shows in the final product with large glue lines, split ends, veneers broken off at the points or not sharp but more blunted.

When a person has problem he needs to think of what may be causing it and then take steps to eliminate them. Once a solution is found, a tool or technique must be found to correct it and then that solution needs to be incorporated into the point making sequence. Each time one of the problems have been solved the point will look better until finally, when all of the little problems have been solved, they will be perfect. Once you have a proper sequence of steps put together there will no longer be any fears of what the final outcome will be. You will know before you even start.

Dick
 
RBC said:
Eric,

I just received a picture of the veneers fairly close up on a Spain blank Balabushka. It's pretty easy to see that they are stacked. Not only that, they are all stacked the same direction! It's way too big to post and if I make it smaller. it's harder to see.

So, I totally agree with you. If they are done right or not is what counts. I have seen cues where they were done so well it was hard to tell. I'm also not sure recuts would change the hit much either. Again, provided everything was glued and machined properly.
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Royce,

You might be right about Burton stacking veneers but there may be another explanation. If the blank is offset enough to even up the points, it can throw off the miter enough to make it look like it is stacked. If the veneer looks like it is all stacked on one side that may be a better explanation. Uneven pressure can cause the same thing, shifting off to one direction or the other. But that usually happens on one point not all.

Mark
 
one more thing, 4-5 veneers being the easiest to miter, 3 being a little more difficult...2 ? gotta stack em, atleast i do or it looks like hell....anybody successfully mitered 2 veneers? not talking about .060's or bigger[/QUOTE]

I'm in the middle of a 1 veneer mitered fullsplice. It's not finished yet but it's looking good so far.

Good thread Mr. Mike.
 
ITguy said:
Is there a chance someone could post pictures (or better yet, a 3x5 card with pictures and diagrams on the back) of the two styles being discussed for those of us less worldly in the matter????


thanks
jim
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I'd say looks like you going to visit again, I have both methods work in progress going right now and you have seen them.
 
CMD said:
I am just starting my collection. I have several cues on order with veneers and I do not care which style the cuemaker decides to do as long as the look very good. I have received a cue in the past where the points were mitered and it looked like it had split ends. Needless to say, I did not accept the cue as is.

This is a great thread Mike... I love reading and learning.


Chris
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Thank you Chris you will see and learn a lot when you visit.
 
cutter said:
I digress, but don't think Gus overlapped. I've seen some of his I would swear where, but talking to people who knew him, they say no. I think what you are seeing is that Gus didn't pre glue the two mitered veneers together. He put the sides in and then the point stock and then squeezed the devil out of it. Sometimes the one side of the veneer would push the other out of the way and just crush into the v bottom. Just a different way of doing it.

By the way, this is what AZ should be all the time.

Hi Steve
Thank you for posting, Excellent work as always. Have you ever done overlapped or do you miter right down to one veneer?
Click to expand...
 
Fullsplice said:
one more thing, 4-5 veneers being the easiest to miter, 3 being a little more difficult...2 ? gotta stack em, atleast i do or it looks like hell....anybody successfully mitered 2 veneers? not talking about .060's or bigger
Click to expand...

I'm in the middle of a 1 veneer mitered fullsplice. It's not finished yet but it's looking good so far.

Good thread Mr. Mike.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Mark:
For sure if anyone can do a clean 1 veneer miter, It is definately you. You are one of the best friends a guy could ask for and I hope you feel better.
 
hangemhigh said:
Mitered veneers give the appearance of depth in boxes, they also give a cue the appearance of symmetry and help contribute to the sense of perfect alignment in a cue.

Stacked has it's place though, and perfect execution of stacked veneers is as much a testament to the builders prowess as mitered.
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Thank you very much.
 
I hope some of these also help.
The purple heart and Ebony combine .026 and .035 veneers mitered. #3 and #4 are are also mitered. The last one on the right, Olive wood and Cocobolo have overlapped veneers.

image47.jpg


Picture #2, Overlapped method using .026 veneers.
EbonyandAmboya.jpg


Picture #3, All mitered
Forearms3forGSSPandPS.jpg


Picture #4, .035 veneers overlapped.
Image17copy.jpg
 
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