BHE vs FHE

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Again, misrepresenting what I said. Seems to be all you got...

Some videos (Dr. Dave's, for instance) teach a lot - but you're not him (God knows), and your "vanity challenge" is empty nonsense (like Spidey's frequent "challenges") that really only shows your lack of knowledge.
Knowledge that you, and ONLY you possess at the highest level over everyone else including top pro players. Where has it gotten you other than mouthing off one day after another on a pool forum for almost the last 30 years? You sure as hell can't back it up on the table.

My challenges can't compare to the number of ways you know how to back pedal, weasel, cry and moan, reverse it, or whatever
tactic available to not have to show your ass to everyone on here. Now, go make a new 2D drawing and dazzle everyone.
 

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
+300 posts.........This thread has run it's course for me......and there is far too much of what is in my UAS link below......Plus I am Hungry for some Ham and Eggs.....and a thumb technique thread just started up on the Tidly Winks forum....I need to get in on that!!!!
 

pw98

Registered
Which english method do you use? Traditional english is stroked diagonally, away from the shot line, plus adjusting consciously or subconsciously for curve, squirt, etc.

It sounds like you've not gone throught the steps I've diagrammed. Try them if you like.
I pivot in the air then come down with my arm at the same angle as a centerball shot.

Your way is terrible. It has a low ceiling as far as how good you can get and how reliably you can get the same direction off the rail.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
It's not table conditions dependent AS MUCH AS it is layout of the balls dependent. You don't just get to pick your favored shot all the time. Your proposed replacement shot travels an entirely different path that wouldn’t necessarily be available.

I get sometimes shots aren't always available table to table. Lively rails, small pockets, and fresh cloth all changes the available shots. The biggest of those is fresh cloth. Multi-rail spin shots aren't always available on fresh cloth. That's the one variable I see that changes the patterns of pros. Once the cloth breaks in, they go right back to their typical patterns.

Again -- tons of options if you're shooting one ball. You're lucky if you get two options on a shot while running out a 9 ball rack.
Well I could just as easily retort with "well maybe your inside 3/4 rail route isn't available"...lol

You claim I must have to play a shot a certain way to construct your argument. I'm telling you there are options and I wouldn't put myself your suggested situation. I also include that I'm only talking about pattern play and not forced recovery. You can choose to believe what I'm telling you about my game or not, but I can promise you I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Once again, I'm not saying I never play with english beyond 1 tip. I am saying that I purposely construct my patterns to avoid it. As spoken in the recent tight pocket thread. I consistently cheat pockets to generate carom angle to lower the english requirement.
I'm always skeptical of the "low english" crowd. There's just way too many shots where it makes more sense to roll the cue ball with "lots" of english than it does to stun it with a "little" english.
No worries, I get it. Many ways to skin a cat. I play a ton of shots in what many consider alternative methods. I also can juice the ball around the table as well. I have just determined over time that carom angle is better than english to move the ball around. I'll purposely take sharper angles then most feel think appropriate with that goal in mind. I don't consider this a failing in my game. Just an aspect to lower my dependence on what makes this game difficult. That's not potting the ball, but potting a ball with excessive english.

However I think our debate has broken down a little... To this point when I have spoken of "english". I have been referring to either left or right action on the CB. This was born out of the conversation of FHE vs BHE, (horizontal adjustment). I do play primarily with a rolling CB or force follow, and I can of course stun/draw the CB. On the vertical axis I do not worry about english beyond a full tip.
Moved on from BHE/FHE. 😉
..but a much better conversation anyway :)
 

pw98

Registered
I certainly would insist on 5 times without editing, yes, because PJ's extreme reluctance to make a video proves to me his scatter will include failed shots.
Your scatter will be crap too.

How can you seriously think you can change shot speeds and english amounts and consistently hit the same spot on the horizontal axis while twisting your wrist on the fly is beyond me.

You can try to be wordy and put salespitch crap on your method but your method will remain inferior.
 

pw98

Registered
You're yet to argue anything I've posted, actually.

So far, your strongest argument seems to be "It's impossible to apply 1.65 mm of english without sliding the bridge hand forward during the stroke".

Are we making a video or . . . ?
It's not worth arguing every sentence of fluffed up nonsense you spew. Pj debunked all 20 paragraphs you contrived with two sentences.
 

pw98

Registered
Well I could just as easily retort with "well maybe your inside 3/4 rail route isn't available"...lol

You claim I must have to play a shot a certain way to construct your argument. I'm telling you there are options and I wouldn't put myself your suggested situation. I also include that I'm only talking about pattern play and not forced recovery. You can choose to believe what I'm telling you about my game or not, but I can promise you I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Once again, I'm not saying I never play with english beyond 1 tip. I am saying that I purposely construct my patterns to avoid it. As spoken in the recent tight pocket thread. I consistently cheat pockets to generate carom angle to lower the english requirement.

No worries, I get it. Many ways to skin a cat. I play a ton of shots in what many consider alternative methods. I also can juice the ball around the table as well. I have just determined over time that carom angle is better than english to move the ball around. I'll purposely take sharper angles then most feel think appropriate with that goal in mind. I don't consider this a failing in my game. Just an aspect to lower my dependence on what makes this game difficult. That's not potting the ball, but potting a ball with excessive english.

However I think our debate has broken down a little... To this point when I have spoken of "english". I have been referring to either left or right action on the CB. This was born out of the conversation of FHE vs BHE, (horizontal adjustment). I do play primarily with a rolling CB or force follow, and I can of course stun/draw the CB. On the vertical axis I do not worry about english beyond a full tip.

..but a much better conversation anyway :)
One reason the chrome angle is better is all tables are not built equal. That being some tables respond to sidespin exactly the same and some respond with their own ruleset. In short race format there isn't much time to learn that tables ruleset before you lost. Changing the cueball can change the sidespin response ruleset too.
 

DeadStick

i like turtles
Gold Member
Silver Member
Let me tell you how my world works. I'm far from a pro, but play pretty sporty. So maybe there's something to be considered.

When I'm standing up I do the following:
  • Determine the pocket and subsequent shot line for the OB
  • Determine the route I want the CB to follow after said shot
  • Determine a rough aim line from CB to OB
When I'm getting down on the shot I do the following:
  • Place bridge hand on the table.
When I'm down on the shot I do the following:
  1. I cue straight down my rough aim line w/ center CB and develop a fine tuned aim line
  2. I then adjust my stroke to strike the CB with required english. <-Which I can't do until I've fine tuned the aim line and determined the resulting carom angle
  3. I then adjust my aim line to compensate for the squirt/swerve I'll generate with the applied english so I can strike the desired point on the OB that I developed back on Step 1
  4. Ensure I'm cueing straight
  5. Pull trigger
Lines 1, 2, 3 cannot be done with any effectiveness while in the standing position IMO. All will require some adjustment and are dependent on where your bridge hand lands.

As I said earlier... This isn't such a big deal and can mostly be omitted when the shot is relatively short and/or requires little to no CB movement afterward.
That describes my process as well.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you do your test strokes directly above the shot and drop in vertically, there you are.
Let me tell you how my world works. I'm far from a pro, but play pretty sporty. So maybe there's something to be considered.

When I'm standing up I do the following:
  • Determine the pocket and subsequent shot line for the OB
  • Determine the route I want the CB to follow after said shot
  • Determine a rough aim line from CB to OB
When I'm getting down on the shot I do the following:
  • Place bridge hand on the table.
When I'm down on the shot I do the following:
  1. I cue straight down my rough aim line w/ center CB and develop a fine tuned aim line
  2. I then adjust my stroke to strike the CB with required english. <-Which I can't do until I've fine tuned the aim line and determined the resulting carom angle
  3. I then adjust my aim line to compensate for the squirt/swerve I'll generate with the applied english so I can strike the desired point on the OB that I developed back on Step 1
  4. Ensure I'm cueing straight
  5. Pull trigger
Lines 1, 2, 3 cannot be done with any effectiveness while in the standing position IMO. All will require some adjustment and are dependent on where your bridge hand lands.

As I said earlier... This isn't such a big deal and can mostly be omitted when the shot is relatively short and/or requires little to no CB movement afterward.
With CG, every step can be done prone and in the air except pull the trigger. In my state of prep these days, I have settled on trying to warm up while trying to grab the one table - so my preshot now is biased that way. Regardless, it's easy to determine where you need to set before getting down. It's not always wise to subsequently one pump everything without locking in but even that's been done.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
With CG, every step can be done prone and in the air except pull the trigger. In my state of prep these days, I have settled on trying to warm up while trying to grab the one table - so my preshot now is biased that way. Regardless, it's easy to determine where you need to set before getting down. It's not always wise to subsequently one pump everything without locking in but even that's been done.
Well once again I think playing skill needs to be provided to quantify the validity of the method.

Quite frankly but not in an effort to be confrontational. I highly doubt your potting efficiency and subsequent CB are extremely successful with mere air pumping and no adjustment when down on the ball.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well once again I think playing skill needs to be provided to quantify the validity of the method.

Quite frankly but not in an effort to be confrontational. I highly doubt your potting efficiency and subsequent CB are extremely successful with mere air pumping and no adjustment when down on the ball.
TS then. If you weren't being confrontational, you wouldn't be skimming my posts for shit to grab onto. I do what I do because it works. CG provides ample references to set and forget but if you read my stuff with any comprehension you'd see I'm not recommending anything of the sort.
CG provides an accurate grid that you can align to in the air. It doesn't play pool for you.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
TS then. If you weren't being confrontational, you wouldn't be skimming my posts for shit to grab onto. I do what I do because it works. CG provides ample references to set and forget but if you read my stuff with any comprehension you'd see I'm not recommending anything of the sort.
CG provides an accurate grid that you can align to in the air. It doesn't play pool for you.
Ah, I read and quoted you whole post... What skimming did I do...?..., but I agree there's some shit in your comments...lol ;)

I have zero doubt you believe what you do works. Why would you do it if it didn't right..? That said, just because you have an opinion and claim it works. It doesn't mean you have had any measurable success with it. If your a 400spd player. Do you think you should be advocating for some system/method that has you plateauing at a league banger level..?

Feel insulted or attacked all you want. Frankly I don't care if I hurt your feelings. However, I'll stand by my opinion that solely relying on a method that air pumps while standing and supposedly lands you perfectly for the shot is haphazard at best. If you have something at your disposal to prove me wrong. I'm all for being schooled and corrected.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
That describes my process as well.
Jesus Christ...you two go through a lot of work and thinking to pull off a single shot. I'm not implying that you're bad players in the least bit. Fact is, I think both of you are pretty good players.
Tell me what you see and do visually and mechanically when you have a dead straight in shot at the next to last ball on the table with no need for spin, just some roll forward to get to the last ball. How do you line it up? IOW, what do you see and do?
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ah, I read and quoted you whole post... What skimming did I do...?..., but I agree there's some shit in your comments...lol ;)

I have zero doubt you believe what you do works. Why would you do it if it didn't right..? That said, just because you have an opinion and claim it works. It doesn't mean you have had any measurable success with it. If your a 400spd player. Do you think you should be advocating for some system/method that has you plateauing at a league banger level..?

Feel insulted or attacked all you want. Frankly I don't care if I hurt your feelings. However, I'll stand by my opinion that solely relying on a method that air pumps while standing and supposedly lands you perfectly for the shot is haphazard at best. If you have something at your disposal to prove me wrong. I'm all for being schooled and corrected.

More playuh babble. Don't even have the balls to tout your own method instead of pooing mine - as unbelievable of all things. Far as I can tell you played enough to have a reliable game and that's it. When you start playing perfect let me know.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
More playuh babble. Don't even have the balls to tout your own method instead of pooing mine - as unbelievable of all things. Far as I can tell you played enough to have a reliable game and that's it. When you start playing perfect let me know.
Wow! LOL. Was I ever wrong. I was always under the impression that you and JV were blood brothers in the play by the numbers and equations Geek squad. Whoda thunk both of you would be butting heads?

 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow! LOL. Was I ever wrong. I was always under the impression that you and JV were blood brothers in the play by the numbers and equations Geek squad. Whoda thunk both of you would be butting heads?

Your not too bright if you think JV is in that category.
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wow! LOL. Was I ever wrong. I was always under the impression that you and JV were blood brothers in the play by the numbers and equations Geek squad. Whoda thunk both of you would be butting heads?
Not butting heads. Just tired of indulging the shark child. If he can't see using the stick to connect two points in space, I can't help him.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Your not too bright if you think JV is in that category.
You're not too bright if you think what he posted is not:
When I'm standing up I do the following:
  • Determine the pocket and subsequent shot line for the OB
  • Determine the route I want the CB to follow after said shot
  • Determine a rough aim line from CB to OB
When I'm getting down on the shot I do the following:
  • Place bridge hand on the table.
When I'm down on the shot I do the following:
  1. I cue straight down my rough aim line w/ center CB and develop a fine tuned aim line
  2. I then adjust my stroke to strike the CB with required english. <-Which I can't do until I've fine tuned the aim line and determined the resulting carom angle
  3. I then adjust my aim line to compensate for the squirt/swerve I'll generate with the applied english so I can strike the desired point on the OB that I developed back on Step 1
  4. Ensure I'm cueing straight
  5. Pull trigger
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
More playuh babble. Don't even have the balls to tout your own method instead of pooing mine - as unbelievable of all things. Far as I can tell you played enough to have a reliable game and that's it. When you start playing perfect let me know.
It will never happen. I'm not delusional enough to believe I could ever play perfect pool. Even when I have managed to go error-less in a set. There's always something that could have been improved on. I'm content enough with the 680 spd results my approach has produce for me. That said, I do tinker.

As far as touting my own method. It's nothing special and I've already broken it down in this very thread. I rely heavily on HAMB, as do nearly all players with that level of table time. In my beginnings I was taught Ghost Ball, but we should keep in mind that was during my snooker era +30yrs ago and the system riddled internet wasn't around. If I had to do it again. I'd definitely adopt a system. A great way to fast track positive results. Unfortunately I don't think a "air pump and hope" method would catch my interest.

So I don't have a forum 'system evangelist decoder ring'. Just a guy that has a decent amount of time at the table and grasp of the subtle things most players don't realize their doing.

If you believe your approach the best thing since sliced bread. Then by all means continue to plod along doing whatever it is your doing. I'm not the guy you need to bend a knee to. Hopefully where ever you've silently plateaued has been as satisfying as my efforts. However if you have a problem with me critiquing what you have posted. Then either ignore me or stop posting the questionable where I happen to be active. ;)
 
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