The correction method determines the amount of correction, The amount of squirt is the same either way.
pj
chgo
BHE vs FHE
- Thread starter slach
- Start date
pj
chgo
Is this from personal experience or what you think, heard or the 2D drawing is telling you.
For those interested in the topics in this thread, the videos, illustrations, articles, and other info on the following resource pages might be of interest:
I've watched these and there's some good information and live examples. But I wouldn't call it the "FINAL WORD" on what you were teaching and trying to get across. Does that mean it shouldn't be watched? No, that's not what I'm saying. There are other videos out there that go into greater depth and are more accurate in the description.
Here's an example: "The phrase “back-hand english” is also sometimes used to refer to a swooping stroke, where the back hand is moved sideways during the forward stroke (see stroke swoop).
I don't know "who" referred to it as a "swooping stroke" but that's NOT how it's done or should be done. Where did this even come from?
I posted this on the first page of this thread and as far as I'm concerned, he NAILED IT exactly the way it should be done, how to judge the amount of angled offset, and no deflection. It's not something that should be used for table length shots to begin with. Starting at the 1:25 mark should work. POST #20
BHE vs FHE
I was trying to visualize the effects of BHE vs FHE so I made this somewhat scale drawing. With FHE the bridge was moved and the butt unmoved to hit a spot on the cue ball about 1/2" off center. For BHE the bridge stayed the same and the butt was moved over so the same spot on the cue ball was...
forums.azbilliards.com
It's simple common sense... so your unfamiliarity with it is understandable.
pj
chgo
SWOOP!! there it is.....right in the video.....Thanks DR. Dave....as always great video's.
I think the moral of this story is....you are never going to get 100% agreement on which is best to use since different shafts play different and different game situations come up.
Example you are bridging off the rail but have a shorter than normal bridge length.......BHE won't work in this situation since the pivot point of that shaft is further back....So it would be a good idea to practice and learn how to apply FHE in that particular situation.
People will also have their preference as to which method they "prefer" to use because that is what they are comfortable with.....I personally like BHE as I can use a consistent bridge location (center shot line) and the method is fairly self correcting... ....FHE I don't have full confidence with how far off of center shot line I can set my bridge hand.....thus I prefer a more BHE approach.....Since I am using a CF very low deflection shaft....If I want to use BHE I will be forced to use a longer bridge on that shot....not the end of the world...just something to practice.
But.....back to my original reply in this thread........BHE-FHE are not "snake oil" concepts.....and if you want to be any kind of decent in this game....is a "must" to learn how to do.
The late Roger Griffis said this to me years ago when he was living in Phoenix....I asked him one time how he got so good at spinning the rock....draw shots, spin shots...he could hit them all...
He said.......(In my best Roger Griffis voice imposternation)........"Man.....I spent a year just spinning the Sh&! out of everything........then I dialed it way back down to where I only use it when necessary.....but I know it is there when I need it"
I think the moral of this story is....you are never going to get 100% agreement on which is best to use since different shafts play different and different game situations come up.
Example you are bridging off the rail but have a shorter than normal bridge length.......BHE won't work in this situation since the pivot point of that shaft is further back....So it would be a good idea to practice and learn how to apply FHE in that particular situation.
People will also have their preference as to which method they "prefer" to use because that is what they are comfortable with.....I personally like BHE as I can use a consistent bridge location (center shot line) and the method is fairly self correcting... ....FHE I don't have full confidence with how far off of center shot line I can set my bridge hand.....thus I prefer a more BHE approach.....Since I am using a CF very low deflection shaft....If I want to use BHE I will be forced to use a longer bridge on that shot....not the end of the world...just something to practice.
But.....back to my original reply in this thread........BHE-FHE are not "snake oil" concepts.....and if you want to be any kind of decent in this game....is a "must" to learn how to do.
The late Roger Griffis said this to me years ago when he was living in Phoenix....I asked him one time how he got so good at spinning the rock....draw shots, spin shots...he could hit them all...
He said.......(In my best Roger Griffis voice imposternation)........"Man.....I spent a year just spinning the Sh&! out of everything........then I dialed it way back down to where I only use it when necessary.....but I know it is there when I need it"
What I actually wrote was:
"Let's select some english position plays with varying degrees of difficulty, then we post two videos, you shooting them with FHE, I will shoot them with both FHE and BHE.
I know the limits and advantages of both methods will be objectively presented that way."
It's beyond beginners, I have students with leisure income, retired, who've played 40 or 50 years or more, and card APA 6 or even higher, but continue to struggle with english over a distance.
The method I've diagrammed does indeed change the CB's initial path, via a different angle of tip approach.
At impact, a tip pointed toward C-E instead of C-D sends the cue ball in a different initial direction (even if, as you wrote, swerve and squirt are in equivalent amounts for both strokes).
Say, for example, we shoot through C-A or B-D instead, still getting the same amounts of english, swerve and squirt (and micro jump and anything else we can think of). No one would agree that playing through Line C-A and Line B-D will have the same direction of travel for the cue ball.
Also if I may, I appreciate the reasoned discussion we're having. I'm in no way trying to debate or argue with you, and am happy to Zoom with you to show you techniques live et al without charge, anytime.
Thanks for your patience with me.
C-A is through centerball, so no english, swerve or squirt is produced.
Do you play pool?
pj
chgo
"If all else is the same, the initial direction of CB travel is different due to tip's angle of approach".
"If" opens the door to hypotheticals.
Perhaps you will respond to my suggestion that we post videos?
"Let's select some english position plays with varying degrees of difficulty, then we post two videos, you shooting them with FHE, I will shoot them with both FHE and BHE.
I know the limits and advantages of both methods will be objectively presented that way."
So you don't play pool or speak English - but you wanna do dueling videos.
lol
pj
chgo
Not dueling videos, collaborative videos, we choose some shots and we perform them.
You've made assertions that I've diagrammed and described as false, surely videos from us both would show who is correct.
You seem to have a short memory. No interest in lessons or diagrams or videos with you.
I try to deal in logic and proven principles about the way pool balls work not fantasies which you revel in.
As far as BHE and/or FHE goes I don't use them and never will. Outside certain parameters they're pretty much worthless.
I remember that you don't answer questions. Two that are immediate:
1) Describe the "many ways to make Matt's one shot" as you suggested? (Or make a video demonstration, I'll pay for you to uber to a local hall and I'll pay your table time.)
2) If you use neither BHE or FHE, how do you add english to your shots? (PJ and I are two of many players who've debunked setting both hands parallel to center CB to impart spin.)
Anybody who knows what they're talking about can describe FHE/BHE clearly in a couple of sentences - no video needed. It ain't rocket surgery.
pj
chgo
BHE/FHE are specific methods of squirt correction (among others), not just labels for "more or less" squirt correction.
pj
chgo
But PJ, you don't know what you're talking about. Dr. Dave agrees:
There actually are several potential benefits of a swoop/swipe stroke for the people who can execute the technique accurately and consistently:
- A swoop stroke allows one to aim and hit closer to the center of the CB, to apply sidespin. This effect doesn’t allow one to put more spin on the CB than is possible with a straight stroke, nor does it change the effective miscue limit (or the maximum amount of spin possible), but it does allow one to hit the CB with less “apparent” tip offset.
- The sideways swiping motion (especially if it is fast in comparison to the forward speed of the cue) helps provide slightly more squirt (cue ball deflection) aim compensation than is provided by a pre-stroke BHE pivot. And if one uses a non-LD-shaft (especially with a long bridge length), this slightly extra squirt compensation might be helpful (assuming they haven’t already adjusted their aim and alignment to intuitively compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, as most pros and top players do).
- A swoop stroke can allow the cue to be aligned closer to the direction one wants the CB to head (assuming the aim compensation provide by the swooping motion is appropriate for the amount of squirt, swerve, and throw anticipated for the given shot). This could make it easier for some people to visualize the line of the shot and one’s aim and cue alignment. Without a swoop, to compensate for squirt, the cue alignment at address would be off center and in general not in-line with the desired direction of CB motion. Most top players can aim and align the cue in this fashion intuitively, and it is comfortable. However, some people find the off-center and off-line pre-stroke cue alignment to be disconcerting.
- A swoop stroke allows one to apply BHE squirt correction during the stroke instead of before the stroke. BHE before the stroke can be awkward, uncomfortable and unnatural to some people. Some, while aiming and aligning a shot, don’t like seeing the cue pointing in a different direction than they want the CB to head. Also, some people don’t like to change their stance (which can occur with a pre-stroke BHE pivot) and cue alignment after being down on a shot.
By "add english", I was asking what method Sparkle uses to aim and hit off the vertical axis of the CB, and whether he uses his front hand, back hand, or something else to do so, since he claims to use neither:
"As far as BHE and/or FHE goes I don't use them and never will. Outside certain parameters they're pretty much worthless."
For people who want to see the full context of this partial quote, see the source page and videos here: