BIG Changes ahead for Pro Pool???

[Petros Andrikop]

I recently opened a thread about returning to older game formats like winner breaks etc, in order to protect top players getting beat by almost "everybody" and give the right message about the game again.
As I have stated a couple of years ago in a similar thread what pool is missing is a professional league like snooker.
Built one, even without high earnings for start and let it grow.
You don't just meet world champions in any tournament, under game rules that give you a chance. You have to earn that privilege by hard work which will be rewarded under the right motivation.
That way you maintain a high prestige of the game which is necessary, along with the right kind of promotion everywhere.
As far as the product marketing, you don't need any type of games which people are not familiar with or slow action matches, TV/Streaming matches under the Mosconi cup format should do it.

 

[boradriver]

Celophanewrap...You really should get your facts straight before making incorrect statements like these. The PBTA was the pro organization connected with the Camel events. The PBTA was a dictatorship run with a heavy hand by Don Mackey. It was partly through Mackey's actions that RJ Reynolds packed it in on pro pool (he went on to sue them, won the lawsuit, and stole the money owed to the players). The PCA was formed by CJ, Allen Hopkins and several other pros who were disenchanted with the way Mackey ran things. Camel/RJ Reynolds couldn't have cared less about the PCA. Camel quit sponsoring pool because they felt they weren't getting the ROI they had expected. It had nothing to do with the PCA. BTW, the pro players have been shooting themselves in the foot for decades before either the PBT or the PCA. Now they're shooting themselves in the foot again with the ABP. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I always wondered if a player walking out on a big final match was the nail in the coffin as far as Camel/RJ Reynolds was concerned. When you pay for TV time and the players don't play and you have no content to present to ESPN maybe that would be enough for a company to pull the plug.

 

[sjm]

I always wondered if a player walking out on a big final match was the nail in the coffin as far as Camel/RJ Reynolds was concerned. When you pay for TV time and the players don't play and you have no content to present to ESPN maybe that would be enough for a company to pull the plug.

No, that was not the key nail in the coffin. I went to several Camel tour events in the late 1990's and they actively tried to promote their Camel brand of cigarettes through pool.

For example, all the pool tables had camel colored cloth and the table lights had a large ball with the image of their logo "Joe Camel" figure. Also, at each event, a booth was setup for cigarette exchange - if you gave them a pack of whatever cigarette you smoked, they would give you two packs of Camels. There were several other reasons the venture went stale, but the story can wait for another day and another thread.

They tried hard to promote their cigarette brand through pool but were unsuccessful and quickly pulled the plug.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Changes in pro pool

Primo,

You and others like you - that keep spitting out drivel like this, are a large part of the problem.

Just by asking this question shows how little you really understand about pro pool and the status of the industry in general.

I know all the pool promoters. Not one of us is or was worried about loosing money to Bonus Ball. But I think many of us were worried about the industry taking a hit and causing everyone to struggle even more. Including the players!

When the tide goes Out, all the ships are a little but lower.

Hope you have a nice day, but spread your BS to someone who might believe it.

Mark Griffin

What negative impact did BB do for pool other then maybe get some 1.2 or 3 event promoters worried about loosing some $$$? what do you have rebuild?

 

[boradriver]

No, that was not the key nail in the coffin. I went to several Camel tour events in the late 1990's and they actively tried to promote their Camel brand of cigarettes through pool.

For example, all the pool tables had camel colored cloth and the table lights had a large ball with the image of their logo "Joe Camel" figure. Also, at each event, a booth was setup for cigarette exchange - if you gave them a pack of whatever cigarette you smoked, they would give you two packs of Camels. There were several other reasons the venture went stale, but the story can wait for another day and another thread.

They tried hard to promote their cigarette brand through pool but were unsuccessful and quickly pulled the plug.

So you don't think not having content to give to ESPN for TV time they paid for would have atleast left a bad taste in their mouth?

 

[golubushka]

Darn Primo...you did it again...would you please stop being a big part of the problem in ruining Pro pool with all your drivel...(green coming to you bud)...:wink:

 

[Fatboy]

Interesting post - but not unexpected.

Many of us in the pool world have been saying this is the year of big change in pool.
Probably the catalyst for the 'awakening' was the Bonus Ball debacle.

I know this is not supposed to be BB Bashing thread. But it is a study in what is wrong with the pro pool scene; and should not be ignored.

I have been saying for quite some time that people are just not being realistic or aware of the negative impact of what this BB could do for pool. And it was not the game that caused the problem.

It was the attitude of the BB management supporters that insisted that anyone who questioned the propaganda was 'against the pool players'. Nothing could be farther from the truth - but I know there was a lot of damage done to the infrastructure of professional pool in this country.

Time will tell how it shakes out. But somewhere along the line, people have to be responsible for what they say and do. So far no one from BB has been willing to admit any wrong doing. So I guess all the lies and deceit were in my imagination.

All of this friction was totally unnecessary. And too many got sucked in to the crap. And in this small of an industry - all things are connected and inter-dependent.

Oh well - some of us are willing to rebuild. But history does have a tendency to repeat itself, doesn't it?

Mark Griffin

Mark,

I mean this with all due respect to you, and perhaps I'm ignorant of some facts(so dont get mad at me).

I truly dont think BB did much harm to pool(not players) but the pool biz. As of now players have been duped, however that aint settled either.

In a year if it dont fly it will be a topic to talk about on AZB, the industry will shake it off. now if it flys then I hope moving forwards everyone can organize and cooperate better than the past few months.

What ever the case maybe, the Rio looked fantastic this year, I caught a cold and didnt make it back, i was very pissed about that as i wanted to see many friends and enjoy the events!

Best

Eric

PS I'm going to ring your phone tomaro for a quick minute

 

[golubushka]

I ask a couple questions and the guy flips out? lol

I would say (IMHO) that the existing pool establishment...has *not* done themselves any favors in the way they have represented themselves in public on these forums...(and I'll just leave it at that)...good luck, and all the best to everyone involved of course though....:wink:

 

[Cory in DC]

Primo,

You and others like you - that keep spitting out drivel like this, are a large part of the problem.

Just by asking this question shows how little you really understand about pro pool and the status of the industry in general.

I know all the pool promoters. Not one of us is or was worried about loosing money to Bonus Ball. But I think many of us were worried about the industry taking a hit and causing everyone to struggle even more. Including the players!

When the tide goes Out, all the ships are a little but lower.

Hope you have a nice day, but spread your BS to someone who might believe it.

Mark Griffin

I imagine he asked the question precisely because he didn't understand the ways in which BB screwing up affects the industry generally. I'm curious, too. And that's not BS, it's a question.

I hear a lot of people saying that it has hurt "the industry" but no real explanation of how. Specifically, what otherwise promising opportunities have been foreclosed by the struggles/failure of Bonus Ball?

I don't see how BB has hurt TAR, which has had great matches in 2013 and recently introduced video on demand; Accustats is running some exciting Make it Happen events on top of its regular slate of matches; I'm excited to see how your new venture with Joe Tucker plays out and I can't see how BB would have affected that.

So, from the sidelines, it looks like two events had maybe 4-10 fewer players than they might have otherwise had. I can see how missing players like that would be bad for those specific events. The question is how and why that would hurt next year's events?

Sure, a receding tide lowers all boats, but that's boats. In most industries, when one competitor struggles, that creates opportunities for the other competitors. For example, if the US 9-Ball Open folds (and I hope it doesn't), that seems likely to increase the profile and field for the 10-Ball Open. What's different here?

Cory

 

[bfdlad]

I imagine he asked the question precisely because he didn't understand the ways in which BB screwing up affects the industry generally. I'm curious, too. And that's not BS, it's a question.

I hear a lot of people saying that it has hurt "the industry" but no real explanation of how. Specifically, what otherwise promising opportunities have been foreclosed by the struggles/failure of Bonus Ball?

I don't see how BB has hurt TAR, which has had great matches in 2013 and recently introduced video on demand; Accustats is running some exciting Make it Happen events on top of its regular slate of matches; I'm excited to see how your new venture with Joe Tucker plays out and I can't see how BB would have affected that.

So, from the sidelines, it looks like two events had maybe 4-10 fewer players than they might have otherwise had. I can see how missing players like that would be bad for those specific events. The question is how and why that would hurt next year's events?

Sure, a receding tide lowers all boats, but that's boats. In most industries, when one competitor struggles, that creates opportunities for the other competitors. For example, if the US 9-Ball Open folds (and I hope it doesn't), that seems likely to increase the profile and field for the 10-Ball Open. What's different here?

Cory

Again, this thread was not intended to b a Bonus Ball bashing thread. The points I brought up can all impact things in different ways. Some are small and some are big. I think for the mot part a whole bunch of small things can make for a total nightmare. The fact that anyone who does not live INSIDE the belly of the beast does not understand how or what all these events could cause dilemas for those who do is totally understandable. It would take a lot of writing I think I mean pages of writing to fully explain all of the impact different things can cause.

A brief explanation of how one thing affects another or another event etc would really seem petty without the whole picture. Again, I think that unless you make your living from pro pool you are not really as in tune to observe or feel the effects. Then again you would have no need to. The things Ilisted at the beginning of this thread we just pointing out a few of the disfuctional things that are going ad why I worry about the future.

 

[Fatboy]

Again, this thread was not intended to b a Bonus Ball bashing thread.

Thats true, but right now thats the hot ticket to talk about. So BB is going to over shadow any real constructive discussion.<------why pool is a disaster any ways IMO. too much knocking and not enough growth.

 

[sjm]

So you don't think not having content to give to ESPN for TV time they paid for would have atleast left a bad taste in their mouth?

It was one of many problems, but ultimately, pool did not offer the platform for Camel to get its money's worth in promotion of its cigarette brand. That was the bigger issue.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Celophanewrap...You really should get your facts straight before making incorrect statements like these. The PBTA was the pro organization connected with the Camel events. The PBTA was a dictatorship run with a heavy hand by Don Mackey. It was partly through Mackey's actions that RJ Reynolds packed it in on pro pool (he went on to sue them, won the lawsuit, and stole the money owed to the players). The PCA was formed by CJ, Allen Hopkins and several other pros who were disenchanted with the way Mackey ran things. Camel/RJ Reynolds couldn't have cared less about the PCA. Camel quit sponsoring pool because they felt they weren't getting the ROI they had expected. It had nothing to do with the PCA. BTW, the pro players have been shooting themselves in the foot for decades before either the PBT or the PCA. Now they're shooting themselves in the foot again with the ABP. Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

What was incorrect? I said another organization formed, one organization didn't like their players playing in the other events, they folded. I don't know if one had anything to do with the other. I do seem to recall reading that the organizations weren't "friendly neighbors", but I'm sure if there was any truth to that you'd have said so. Like I said, maybe I'm remembering wrong, those were just things I had heard as a fan. Thanks for strighting that out. It sounds like you had your own problems with Mackey.
Maybe you thinking I'm wrong for saying so, but I do think it would be a good thing for everyone to get on the same page, and I really would love to see an American tour again, but thats just an opinion

 

[CJ Wiley]

The PCA did all the professional men's events on ESPN from 96 to 99

Some years ago wasn't there the Camel Pro Tour (or the Lucky Strike Pro Tour or the Bud, or some other corporate sponsor Pro Tour) and many of the pro player played on that all year long but then some things happened and another rival organization formed, I think it was called Professional Cue Sports inc or ltd, I think it was CJ's. and they began to develop an event schedule but Camel didn't want their players playing in the PCS events and nothing worked out and everything folded.
I dunno, maybe I'm remembering all wrong but it seems to me that as the union of pro players fractured the current state of Professional Pool (in the United States) started there. I'd love to see a new pro tour but I'd hate to see history repeat like that.
I think it's be great if everyone could get on the same page, but I don't really see it happening.

The PCA did all the professional men's events on ESPN from 96 to 99 in conjunction with the the WPBA. We thought the men and women's events events would be synergistic and they were indeed. One of our broadcasts reached almost 3 million viewers, and we did two LIVE that received excellent ratings as well.

The ratings averaged over a million viewers per show. This lasted until 99, the year I started Carsons Palace in Dallas and I never heard what happened after that. All I was told was that the men never did another ESPN event and I never got any calls to tell them how I was doing the TV Deals.

I'm not sure if anyone knows what happened in 2000.....it's been downhill ever since though, and that's fixing to change. It's ridiculous that pool's not on TV on a regular basis, the deal is there to be made, and I have a feeling it will be done within 3 months. October is the start of the "pool season" and it would be a great time to start the TV schedule.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Interesting post - but not unexpected.

Many of us in the pool world have been saying this is the year of big change in pool.
Probably the catalyst for the 'awakening' was the Bonus Ball debacle.

I know this is not supposed to be BB Bashing thread. But it is a study in what is wrong with the pro pool scene; and should not be ignored.

I have been saying for quite some time that people are just not being realistic or aware of the negative impact of what this BB could do for pool. And it was not the game that caused the problem.

It was the attitude of the BB management supporters that insisted that anyone who questioned the propaganda was 'against the pool players'. Nothing could be farther from the truth - but I know there was a lot of damage done to the infrastructure of professional pool in this country.

Time will tell how it shakes out. But somewhere along the line, people have to be responsible for what they say and do. So far no one from BB has been willing to admit any wrong doing. So I guess all the lies and deceit were in my imagination.

All of this friction was totally unnecessary. And too many got sucked in to the crap. And in this small of an industry - all things are connected and inter-dependent.

Oh well - some of us are willing to rebuild. But history does have a tendency to repeat itself, doesn't it?

Mark Griffin

Would it be correct to say that a major issue that you are concerned about is the hit the relationship between you and some of the players has taken?

If so, you might want to read the part of your post dealing with people having to be responsible for what they say and do.

NOT EVERYTHING IS BONUSBALLS FAULT. (IMO) I know we differ on that.

 

[Fatboy]

The PCA did all the professional men's events on ESPN from 96 to 99 in conjunction with the the WPBA. We thought the men and women's events events would be synergistic and they were indeed. One of our broadcasts reached almost 3 million viewers, and we did two LIVE that received excellent ratings as well.

The ratings averaged over a million viewers per show. This lasted until 99, the year I started Carsons Palace in Dallas and I never heard what happened after that. All I was told was that the men never did another ESPN event and I never got any calls to tell them how I was doing the TV Deals.

I'm not sure if anyone knows what happened in 2000.....it's been downhill ever since though, and that's fixing to change. It's ridiculous that pool's not on TV on a regular basis, the deal is there to be made, and I have a feeling it will be done within 3 months. October is the start of the "pool season" and it would be a great time to start the TV schedule.

One of the problems now for all media is there is more channels, networks, streaming, youtube, etc. It dilutes the number of viewers. Back when we were kids where i lived there was ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS and one independent cable channel, that was it period. Now there are thousands of choices of what to watch and when, which makes it tricky for advertisers to spend $$$ in one spot, and as a result budgets for lots of things have went down. Some sports have a gate that helps, and monster audiences but that took years to build.

I watched a documentary on the PBR last night, the bull rider guys, thats a brutal gig. They took the best part of the rodeo and made it a sport itself. Not a bad plan-still took lots of time, effort and a bankroll. Try and watch it sometime it was pretty good, not great. Made me think of you and pool<----dead serious. Its on netflix if you have that. I know your busy.

take care buddy, hope all is well in Tx

best
eric:smile::smile:

 

[JB Cases]

By the thread title I was expecting to hear that Mark won the Powerball.

Deja Vu.

.25cts per player per week. Bigger pie - everyone goes home a winner.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Pro pool changes

Satori,

Sorry, but I don't think there has been any 'relationship hit' between me and soe of the players. Many of the players don't like my viewpoints and that s fine. I treat all players the same and expect the same repect in return.

I never said everything is BB fault. And I take full responsibility for my actions. BB was not operating in a vacuum - and now that the players are broke wouldn't that have an effect on several events?

If you want to understand where I am coming from, call me and I will be happy to explain. It is way to long and complicated to write dwwn - it would be a book. I am In PST.

MArk Griffin
702-719-7665 work
702-835-2000 cell

Would it be correct to say that a major issue that you are concerned about is the hit the relationship between you and some of the players has taken?

If so, you might want to read the part of your post dealing with people having to be responsible for what they say and do.

NOT EVERYTHING IS BONUSBALLS FAULT. (IMO) I know we differ on that.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Pro pool

Cory in DC,

I respect that you ave asked a question. Call me and I can explain why I say what I am saying. Unless you in the industry, it may not be evident.

I will say that in such a small industry, often times things have an effect on other events. I believe that BB constantly changing their schedule had a detrimental effect on TAR and Mark Cantrill. PPV events need a month or two for promotion time. I believe BB changed their start time about 5+ times- which prevented anyone else doing events.

It is not about a couple players missing an event - it is about the 'buzz' and momentum of an industry. I also want the the US Open 9-Ball to continue - but it it was cancelled, it would not increase the 'profile & field of the US Open 10-Ball. We have filled the fied every year and have enjoyed a spectacular field of foreign players.

Please call me and I will try to explain why I feel the way I do. I can assure you it is NOT fear of smaller pro fields or strained player relationships.

Mark Griffin
702-719-7665 work
702-835-2000. Cell
Pacific Coast Time

I imagine he asked the question precisely because he didn't understand the ways in which BB screwing up affects the industry generally. I'm curious, too. And that's not BS, it's a question.

I hear a lot of people saying that it has hurt "the industry" but no real explanation of how. Specifically, what otherwise promising opportunities have been foreclosed by the struggles/failure of Bonus Ball?

I don't see how BB has hurt TAR, which has had great matches in 2013 and recently introduced video on demand; Accustats is running some exciting Make it Happen events on top of its regular slate of matches; I'm excited to see how your new venture with Joe Tucker plays out and I can't see how BB would have affected that.

So, from the sidelines, it looks like two events had maybe 4-10 fewer players than they might have otherwise had. I can see how missing players like that would be bad for those specific events. The question is how and why that would hurt next year's events?

Sure, a receding tide lowers all boats, but that's boats. In most industries, when one competitor struggles, that creates opportunities for the other competitors. For example, if the US 9-Ball Open folds (and I hope it doesn't), that seems likely to increase the profile and field for the 10-Ball Open. What's different here?

Cory

 

[Mark Griffin]

Pro pool

Primo,

If you truly want have an intelligent discussion on pro pool - and why I feel the way I do, please call me.

You have 500+ posts by now (in 2months). One would think you would have absorbed some of the issues going on in the world of pool. I bet the majority of your posts are pertaining to Bonus Ball. And that is ok - but you need to be open to other viewpoints. If you want to make this wildly inaccurate statement, you should expect to catch some flack.

Here is my number; 702-719-7665 work or 702-835-2000 cell.
All you have to do is call me - if unable to talk we will make a time to connect later.
The only rule I have is I don't respond to anonymous callers.

Mark Griffn

Why don't you educate me on how the industry works instead of insulting me? What hit were you and the industry worried about taking?