BIG Changes ahead for Pro Pool???

[Mark Griffin]

Pro pool

Golubushka,

Against my better judgement, I will also invite you to have an intelligent phone conversation on my viewpoints on BB.

By the same token, I will explain my positions, and you should be willing to xplain yours. You have adeany posts that are 'out there' - but I probably respect unique thinking more than most.

I just think you are putting out some 'thoughts' - that really aren't in touch with facts.
But here is your opportunity to educate me. BTW- how many of the $1,500 signed posters did you get orders for?

Mark Griffin


It just gets old listening to some of the comments that put out the same crap - when they cannot aware of all the facts. In theory we are all supposed to be pulling in the same direction, but there is often so little logic or knowledge . . . . . . .

Darn Primo...you did it again...would you please stop being a big part of the problem in ruining Pro pool with all your drivel...(green coming to you bud)...:wink:

 

[(((Satori)))]

Satori,

Sorry, but I don't think there has been any 'relationship hit' between me and soe of the players. Many of the players don't like my viewpoints and that s fine. I treat all players the same and expect the same repect in return.

I never said everything is BB fault. And I take full responsibility for my actions. BB was not operating in a vacuum - and now that the players are broke wouldn't that have an effect on several events?

If you want to understand where I am coming from, call me and I will be happy to explain. It is way to long and complicated to write dwwn - it would be a book. I am In PST.

MArk Griffin
702-719-7665 work
702-835-2000 cell

I have no interest in a private discussion with you. This is a public forum and i prefer to keep the conversation here.

You think bonusball broke the players? The players continued to do their thing while they received a steady check for a while. I don't think any of them would have chosen to take a different path if you were to ask them. Bonusball is a good thing in the players eyes, but you are looking at the overall impact bonusball will have on pool, right?

So what is the big impact bonusball has had on pool? You still haven't answered that. Unless braking the players is your answer. Let me ask you this. How many players do you think leave your tournaments broke every event? With travel expenses, cost of living, entry fees, etc. you think you are doing good for the average pro pool players pocketbook? What effect on several events do your tournaments have?

It gets old hearing you bash bonusball. Like Primo, a lot of us think that you are doing it because of the impact it has on your wallet. If we are wrong then please enlighten us on the reason you bash so hard.

 

[cajunfats]

Pro Pool and the Big Changes

Mark is very generous to offer time to talk with some of the posters in this thread. He is always extremely busy. I applaud him for being available and willing to explain the complexities of the delicate existence of Pro Pool. It is at times a mind numbing amount of information to process.

Every event or activity that involves a "Professional" pool player in this country, has far reaching implications to the numbers of groups vying to present that product. Yes, they are a product. Just like a package of gum, or a car. Whether a tournament, PPV, Pool Hall Challenge, or any other activity, that Pro is sought after for what they bring to the table. Talent.

Everyone invested in the Talent hopes it brings a return. The Talent wants to earn a living. Positive results, more events/activities for the investors, more revenue for everyone, and hopefully a return engagement.

Pro Pool is actually a small sphere of activity on the Billiard business platform. League and casual play are by far the largest. There needn't be any correlation required with Amateur Pool for the success of Pro Pool.

If Professional Pool cannot stand on it's own two feet, it shouldn't exist at all. Harsh? Yes.

Big Changes ahead? Change always occurs, for better or worse. Nothing new there.

Without an organization with competent and honest leadership, the steps will remain small, and Pro Pool will languish. It will not die, but it will not grow. It is Developing a Mission that will help it prosper. A Reason to Succeed!!!

cajunfats

 

[JB Cases]

Listen up, many of you who think Mark is just bitter don't know him AT ALL. Not at all.

Apparently there was a lot of behind the scenes action concerning BB and Mark/Greg/Diamond etc.... that most of us (me included) were not privy to. I don't know and frankly don't even want to know at this point. But what I do know is that Mark Griffin is one of the truly honest and upstanding people in this business. I have rarely met anyone who genuinely cares about the state of the game at ALL levels as Mark does.

I don't agree with him on all things, mostly jump cues , but no matter what the situation Mark has ALWAYS ALWAYS and ALWAYS been willing to talk about it it until all points of view are laid out and addressed. And unlike many people he actually goes into conversations with an open mind willing to consider that there might be some evidence he doesn't know about.

So my plea to those of you who sometimes like to revel in speculation is that you don't assign motivation to Mark. Simply ask him and he will tell you EXACTLY why he feels the way he does and how he arrived at that position. No need to speculate or guess on the open forum which we all know leads other people to take those speculations as truth.

As for the future of professional pool........ who knows?

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I have no interest in a private discussion with you. This is a public forum and i prefer to keep the conversation here.

You think bonusball broke the players? YesThe players continued to do their thing while they received a steady check for a while.No I don't think any of them would have chosen to take a different path if you were to ask them.Not true, I know 2 for sure Bonusball is a good thing in the players eyes,Not True but you are looking at the overall impact bonusball will have on pool, right?

So what is the big impact bonusball has had on pool? You still haven't answered that. Unless braking the players is your answer. Let me ask you this. How many players do you think leave your tournaments broke every event? Actuall quite a few, Plus How many leave "Paid in Full" from a hard days work?With travel expenses, cost of living, entry fees, etc. you think you are doing good for the average pro pool players pocketbook? Yes, not only paid on the spot! But go home and BOOST their demand for lessons upon return home! The exposure has gotten Brumback bank DVD deals, Frost launch his One Pocket DVD! The exposure from the work of Greg and Mark were the launch pad for these things???What effect on several events do your tournaments have?Double booking time slots waters down both events! Plain and simple! Cause and Effect!

It gets old hearing you bash bonusball. Like Primo, a lot of us think that you are doing it because of the impact it has on your wallet.It has been stated several times the events are "NOT" big money makers! They are "LUCKY" breaking even or at best making 20% If we are wrong then please enlighten us on the reason you bash so hard.

How do I know all of what I stated above? Well, two friends were in bonus ball and just LEFT vegas! As far as tournament running! My POPS worked with Grady Matthews for YEARS! No, Grady never "GOT RICH" off the nearly 12 events he gave! These guys Mark and Greg in my opinion aren't either!

The players ALL know the EXPENSES! They also KNOW the PAYOUTS they choose to roll the dice and attend with the hopes of leaving with $50,000 plus like SHANE did! Why point to the PLAYERS that lost and left broke and OMIT the players that won and left PAID?

The players could have LOBBIED for the payout structured differently! Prize money is $20,000 added and $12,000 in entry fees total money $32,000! Can give $1,000 a piece to top 32! Or Make it top heavy! The players cashing high like it the way it is, the bottom of the barrel STARVE! Survival of the fittest! Mark and Greg both have open door policies and players meetings to VOCALIZE suggestions! Silence MUST condone consent in this situation!

KD

KD

 

[(((Satori)))]

Never mind

Good luck to everyone... I wish Bonusball success.... I wish Mark success... I wish pro pool success.

 

[golubushka]

Golubushka,

Against my better judgement, I will also invite you to have an intelligent phone conversation on my viewpoints on BB.

By the same token, I will explain my positions, and you should be willing to xplain yours. You have adeany posts that are 'out there' - but I probably respect unique thinking more than most.

I just think you are putting out some 'thoughts' - that really aren't in touch with facts.
But here is your opportunity to educate me. BTW- how many of the $1,500 signed posters did you get orders for?

Mark Griffin


It just gets old listening to some of the comments that put out the same crap - when they cannot aware of all the facts. In theory we are all supposed to be pulling in the same direction, but there is often so little logic or knowledge . . . . . . .

Thank you Mark for your kind offer...but I wasn't one of those that really had any questions or further items to discuss...normally, at least based on my experience, it's an unwritten rule for a CEO of one company *not* to discuss the business of another company in the same business domain in public...especially if they may be going through a critical business phase, such as a refunding or the like....(you can ask Lou about this sort of thing to confirm if you like)...but I guess everything in the pool biz is all different, and everybody barks about everything (or something like that)....

Thanks for the mention of my $1500 posters...I'll have to wait to see how things work out with Bonus Ball, before I move forward on this...and then to reformulate my business plan as required...best regards and best of luck for all involved....

PS If the posters do go, in one form of the other, I hope that you might consider signing them too, because I'm sure that would indeed help sell more posters...(to fund the players' emergency medical fund, which of course was the crux of the original idea...since I suspect that many/(most?) of the players do not have proper health coverage now)....

 

[lstevedus]

I was at Tunica for the Southern Classic the first year. It was great. I did not go the second year because I heard a lot of players would not be there because of BOGUS BALL, so my wife and I stayed home. The pro players have a history of self destruction. I also used to go to the Glass City Open in Toledo, remember that one? And how about the Akron Open at Starcher's in Akron, Ohio. They had some great home made apple pie there. There are some pro caliber pool players out there making a living, but the ones that I have met that seem to be doing ok are more than just a pool player. Nick Varner is a good example. Perfect Aim Gene is another, and I would bet money that C.J. Wiley is doing ok.

 

[MitchAlsup]

So with just these events and productions what does it leave for the Pro Players to do for a living??
<snip>
So really, what is left for the Pro players to attend in the next 12 months if all of this comes to pass??

Teach the next generation well enough to beat the Europeans and Asians.

 

[manfromoz]

Viewpoint

I normally don't post opinions in public about other events and/or initiatives, but I will make an exception in this case.

In my opinion, "Pro Pool" has several fatal flaws. Pro pool is an unorganized collection of individual events which is funded largely by the players themselves in the form of very large entry fees. Yes, there is usually added money from sponsors/vendors/etc., but the majority of the prize fund comes from the players. With this model, only a handful of the very best players can make an adequate living. The rest are left to struggle or quit. This model works on a regional level such as an amateur or semi-pro tour, but it is a proven failure on a professional level.

Secondly, many pro pool players believe that they are entitled to certain things and are too good to go out to the local pool room and mix it up with the amateur players. I have personally experienced cases where we invited pro players who were already in town to play in a regional tour event and they refused unless we paid them to do so. Rather than seeing it as an opportunity to win some extra cash, promote their sponsors, promote themselves, and mingle with the players and possibly get them excited about pool, they would elect to just sit in the hotel. Players need to play a role in getting people interested in pool.

Bonus Ball was a good attempt at creating some type of organization, but it had two fatal flaws. First, there was no realistic revenue stream. When I first read the details, the first question in my mind was, "Where does the money come from?" It appeared that they were relying solely on arena attendance and streaming revenue. Secondly, they should not have created a new game. While pool fanatics may find bonus ball interesting and cool, to the average person, it is complicated and confusing. They needed to appeal more to the masses rather than a very small niche market of pool enthusiasts.

With all of that said, I am currently working on several things that I believe could make a difference. However, nothing will ever make a difference as long as players keep demanding all of the money from an event. Sometimes, it seems that if the promoter makes a decent profit or any profit at all, players get upset. A good profit is what will attract good promoters to do new and exciting things. Without it, all you will get is shady promoters who do unethical things. Remember this one statement, "Pool cannot survive on the generosity of millionaires."

 

[Black-Balled]

First time I saw it, I thought “Bloody hell, it’s Max Schreck! That bloke’s got to be nails.”

 

[JoeW]

A different model is needed

From an outsider's perspective and the things I have read over the years it would appear that pro players are not much different than boxers. For most (not all) of them there is little allegiance to anything other than how much money they can make. In other words there is little professionalism among pro players. At one time I thought that what they needed was their own professional association to regulate themselves. However, time has shown that this is simply not possible given the mind set of most (not all) pro players. While some few pros attempt to organize their field the rest will dump a tournament (to give one old example) just to win a few bucks.

So you are left with a group of people who are primarily into self aggrandizement and a group known to swindle others to make a buck. The stories are legion. I now think that is the place to start. Face the facts and work with the facts accordingly to form a sport that has some potential.

I am not a pessimist and I like to watch the pro matches. I do think that the realities need to be considered and these realities can be used to form some sort of sport. Currently, I like the Boxing and the Cage Fighters as a comparison for pro players. They can be organized but the players themselves are not going to do it.

I realize that there are a few highly professional pro players but the place to start is where the majority of the players are with regard to their participation. Now how to incorporate this type of thinking into a tournament format is what would make pro pool different from the sports mentioned. Maybe it needs to incorporate some of the elements of Texas Hold Em with some form of Calcutta to allow for multiple participants, big bucks, and a wider audience.

 

[FranCrimi]

A good way to put your finger on the pulse of the pool world is to ask the pool table retailers how sales are. The answer isn't good at all.

Pro players need sponsorship money in order to function. Most of that money comes from the industry. If the industry is suffering, they will pull back on sponsorship.

It's plain and simple economics: Less money equals less pool events.

With some foreign countries, like China, for example, the government controls sports, and often will sponsor events. However, the tradeoff is that everything is totally government controlled, including the players.

Pool has too much competition these days as a form of entertainment. That's what the pool table retailers will tell you.

 

[Black-Balled]

A good way to put your finger on the pulse of the pool world is to ask the pool table retailers how sales are. The answer isn't good at all...

Admittedly, I have no concept of the actual pool table sales economy...but a lack of knowledge isn't going to get in the way of an opinion!

I have a daughter who is 9, so I have been to a lot of kid b'day parties over the past few years.

Without eexxagerating, I can tell you that at least half of the homes I have visited for that purpose have pool tables in them.

And I used to work for the largest seller of brunswick tables. It was crazy, the # of tables that were sold annually.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Many of us in the pool world have been saying this is the year of big change in pool.
Probably the catalyst for the 'awakening' was the Bonus Ball debacle.
Mark Griffin

That's great, but we're 8 months into this year and the pool industry in The USA just seems to be getting weaker. Maybe it's just me but I don't really see any change except that it seems like it's weaker than it was last year. Frankly, I didn't care for BB, but I had high hopes. To me it's kinda like Baseketball. Whatever is the planned / proposed change, I hope it works - and soon

 

[Scott Lee]

cajunfats...Just had to add the bolded phrase to your very true statement! BTW, a friend of mine helped draft a 'mission statement' for the current professional association. They refused to adhere to the structure, and my friend had to throw up his hands. Deja vu!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Without an organization with competent and honest leadership (that are NOT poolplayers, but ARE businessmen), the steps will remain small, and Pro Pool will languish. It will not die, but it will not grow. It is Developing a Mission that will help it prosper. A Reason to Succeed!!!

cajunfats

 

[JoeW]

The Player Contract Model

What if there was a player contract through a corporation. I don't know the legalities of it but someone with more experience in these matters could sort out the details.

First there is a need for a commission to regulate all this stuff. Like a Boxing Commission.

Each corporation has one player under contract. Shares are sold to interested parties. The price of the shares depends on the cost to put your player in the match and the player's ability to win.

The funds in the corporation would be used to pay the player's expenses and entrance fees for tournaments. Shareholders earn money on their investment based on the money won by the player. The player's contract would state that in return for the salary, expenses, and portion of the winnings the player would agree to play in x tournaments for the year.

Investors could buys shares in one or more players as they see fit but players would be barred from buying shares in any other player.

This might be something like a baseball team with one player on the team.

An interesting side line would be scheduling player “A” versus player “B.” These special events would be open to funding by investors only in proportion to their shares in the contract.

One of the appealing aspect of this type of contract is that it could be funded by anyone, including companies and individuals. It might be expensive to buy one share in a top tier player but less expensive to buy into a third tier player. So you move up the hierarchy with your player having a life time option to buy into the next match so long as you hold your shares.

Some people I know really get into fantasy football and seem to make a little money while they root for their players. Seems this could be done with pool players in some modified format.

 

[JoeW]

With this contract model I can envision a major tournament with a high entry fee that would attract the fans, share holders and others to get involved.

Sure would be exciting to have your money on the line with your player.

 

[jmurphy]

It's ridiculous that pool's not on TV on a regular basis, the deal is there to be made, and I have a feeling it will be done within 3 months. October is the start of the "pool season" and it would be a great time to start the TV schedule.

Pool can not survive on TV unless the Prize money goes WAY UP!!!!!!!!
People got interested in watching Poker on TV because they could see themselves sitting there cashing in the WSOP for $9,000,000 dollars.
Just like Golf on TV, people get to see amazing shots and the Players get PAID big time.
You want interest in Pro Pool to go through the roof, have 12 tournaments with $500,000 for 1st place and like golf have a point system and at the end of the session have the top 16 points leaders compete for the "Best in the World" winner take all $2,000,000 tournament.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

I have a feeling it will be done within 3 months. October is the start of the "pool season" and it would be a great time to start the TV schedule.

Imo, pro pool would have to go back to 9 ball a lot more, winner break, and less safeties for it to be good tv. Back then, they had to chop off some of the 9 ball matches just to make a time slot. Imagine 10 ball and all the safeties, it would never go well on tv.

I honestly did not like watching BB, but I did like one thing out of it. And that was the national teams idea. Vegas, Atlanta, etc... This could work much better with the more traditional games. Even add in something like mixed scotch doubles 8 ball with national teams etc.... Where they would play two guys/ladies against each other in 9 ball, throw a man and woman off each team to do some mixed scotch doubles 8 ball one week etc... Mix it up between teams (throwing in the strategy of the team captains etc...) And at the end of the season, the team with the highest points would win the season (larger prizes etc...) That would do well on television..... It also gives those casual viewers reason to watch more, and get into pulling for those certain teams. I would really not do this in a one studio setting, but different places. As in home team, visiting team etc...

So BB did have that going for it imo, just nothing else...