Bonus ball the truth

[jpparmentier]

I write this as someone who has been a friend of Lee's and still consider him a friend. But I also am still heavily involved in the WPBL and thought some things should be posted here to get the perspective of someone still working for the league.

Thanks for this Steve. The WPBL has been very silent over here and on facebook. The only few bits out are how amaaaaazzzzing last week was. Which is something share by a maximum of 80 people in the whole world. No PR, no results, no payouts, nothing. Just 3 pictures on the official facebook page and many teams facebook pages not updated at all. Nothing in the news section of the site.

As always, if AZB was to receive something we would push it forward, mostly to help the players who have contributed a great deal to this venture by bringing attention to it. But so far, we've received 0 info.

I also have seen it posted here that other contractors (players) received sets in lieu of pay as well and that is simply not the case.

Never read about this here. Where, when? Please quote.

Also, as a contractor like me, the league has every right to decide when we are through working for them (unless something is in writing stating otherwise - which there isn't). I could wake up tomorrow and they could tell me I am through and I moved to Vegas as well - but there's nothing stopping them from doing that and they would owe me nothing if they did.

The reality is different. People who moved did so based on the fact that the season was supposed to be TWENTY-SIX WEEKS. Plus, Johnny Archer publicly stated multiple times that the two first seasons were financed.

So, people moved thinking that over the course of the next two years, they would work at least 52 weeks, plus the playoffs.

Now let me revert the question: If you would have known the first season would have been 7 weeks spread across 7 months, with late pay and no further date than 'early 2014' for the playoffs, would you have moved? would anyone else have?

There are plenty of business who ask for relocation. I've moved a lot in my younger days, and every time the company that was hiring me helped in the process with the loans, moving fees etc...

So many people moving based on hazy promises is just nonsense, to me.


ABOUT LEE'S DISMISSAL:

11-12-2013
In Lee's case, his dismissal only happened anyway because he told them he wasn't going to be available on the dates we were finishing the season. [...] It was only after a different referee was hired that he went public with these accusations.

Lee said he couldn't make it, and first talked about coming back for the playoffs and he was cool with Michaela being a one-time replacement (less than a month ago):

10-15-2013
Mark, i gave them my schedule and when they altered the dates to November i couldn't do the days required. Due to teaching all over the country.
Michaela has been asked to cover for me and i will be back for the playoffs. She messaged me today and is excited and nervous at the same time, we all love Michaela i hope she does well.

Then explained that he was actually free but had to be flown from wherever he was.

11-12-2013
I gave them the dates for my coaching and was available to do the week, they hired Michaela and flew her from england instead of flying me from the East coast.

...What happened between these two posts? Only Lee knows.


BACK TO THE WPBL:

Remember, we just finished 8 great days of matches and nobody else is raising these type of complaints against the league because the league has made things right with us. I saw Larry Chiborak write a lot of checks to a lot of people when he easily could have stayed hidden in Canada and never come back to face the music - but he did.

Steve, with all due respect, the league has FAR from "made right" to anyone.
- They promised 26 weeks of play and had only 7 total.
- They promised $930 a match to the players, $1050 to the captains and paid only $350 this week.
- How' Larry writing checks for money he owes FIVE months late anything outstanding?

...The following, about how he was so brave and he doesn't make a dime, etc, etc... Is just absolute nonsense.


Just remember how everybody from the WPBL acted towards the industry when they thought they had any power. Just remember the words they chose, what they said. Now:

- We should all be thankful for them to finish a 7 weeks season with no further dates, no PR, no public payouts.
- Larry Chiborak is a hero because he actually paid his debts.

These are EXACTLY the type of excuses being overused in our industry for the last 40 years, that the WPBL said they were fighting against.
Now that they've proven to be a failure - at least no better than a few other promoters who failed in the past - these excuses become legit.


BONUS BALL BABY

 

[JAM]

I have no dog in this fight, but anyone with a modicum of sense in the billiard community realizes how Bonus Ball has left a negative effect on American pool. I know of two players who have left pool permanently and gotten jobs because Bonus Ball left them high and dry, and the Bonus Ball's lack of payment and regard for the players' loyalty was the last draw.

Lee should *not* be posting about the labor dispute on this forum. He has been told about it but, for whatever reason, continues to do so. If he had legal counsel, they would instruct him to remain mute on this topic, especially his words put in writing.

As someone who has dealt with employees and independent contractors aka vendors, freelancers, and subcontractors for 30-plus years, if there were no taxes taken out of the check, the person is an independent contractor, not an employee. As such, they can be dismissed whenever the employer wants to dismiss them, with no warning.

It is true that if a person works solely for one person, they can be deemed an employee and not an IC (independent contractor), but if it can be proven that the person had another source of income -- like giving pool lessons, selling product, et cetera -- then that person is not an employee.

If it can be proven that the person is, indeed, an employee, then the employer can, indeed, be fined by the IRS for not taking out taxes. Usually, however, employers work out an agreement with the IRS for a first offense.

One gray area for me is the fact that this is a Canadian company doing business in the States. I'm not sure how that will affect a labor law dispute, but I do know for sure that it doesn't matter what the employer promises to an employee or an IC if they find it necessary to let them go. They can be dismissed at any time.

Sorry, Lee, if what I have written is not what you want to read, but in my industry, most are ICs, freelancers, subcontractors, and vendors. I'm pretty familiar with the law, having been questioned by the IRS on this very topic as well as having a STRONG familiarity with matters before U.S. Tax Court.

In the end, Bonus Ball, Larry, and Lee lose, leaving the table with nothing, and the lawyers win, leaving the table with stuffed pockets.

 

[JAM]

Jenny, is this part of the upcoming booK? I'm sure its going to be great when it is finished?

You're so kind. Thank you so much.

That was sugar and spice and everything nice, compared to what's in the book. Let me just say that I don't think the pool purists of the world will like what is written in the book.

 

[pro9dg]

Lee, as you are continuing to post you seem intent on ignoring advice from people who have your best interests at heart.
In a case like this your grammatical shortcomings could prove crucial were you to take this into a legal process.
There are also inconsistencies in your story that could trip you up in the future.

Your times in the States, to say the least,
has been eventful.
Fist fights, drinking binges, sponsorship issues, sleeping rough will all be remembered should you need character witnesses.

Revenge seems to top your bill at the moment. But in the long run you will find little satisfaction from that.

If you have found a market for your coaching then get your head down and concentrate on that. The one thing you need there is credibility and you are in danger of losing that.
I wish you well, but it is now time to Chill!

 

[The Renfro]

I have no dog in this fight, but anyone with a modicum of sense in the billiard community realizes how Bonus Ball has left a negative effect on American pool. I know of two players who have left pool permanently and gotten jobs because Bonus Ball left them high and dry, and the Bonus Ball's lack of payment and regard for the players' loyalty was the last draw.

Lee should *not* be posting about the labor dispute on this forum. He has been told about it but, for whatever reason, continues to do so. If he had legal counsel, they would instruct him to remain mute on this topic, especially his words put in writing.

As someone who has dealt with employees and independent contractors aka vendors, freelancers, and subcontractors for 30-plus years, if there were no taxes taken out of the check, the person is an independent contractor, not an employee. As such, they can be dismissed whenever the employer wants to dismiss them, with no warning.

It is true that if a person works solely for one person, they can be deemed an employee and not an IC (independent contractor), but if it can be proven that the person had another source of income -- like giving pool lessons, selling product, et cetera -- then that person is not an employee.

If it can be proven that the person is, indeed, an employee, then the employer can, indeed, be fined by the IRS for not taking out taxes. Usually, however, employers work out an agreement with the IRS for a first offense.

One gray area for me is the fact that this is a Canadian company doing business in the States. I'm not sure how that will affect a labor law dispute, but I do know for sure that it doesn't matter what the employer promises to an employee or an IC if they find it necessary to let them go. They can be dismissed at any time.

Sorry, Lee, if what I have written is not what you want to read, but in my industry, most are ICs, freelancers, subcontractors, and vendors. I'm pretty familiar with the law, having been questioned by the IRS on this very topic as well as having a STRONG familiarity with matters before U.S. Tax Court.

In the end, Bonus Ball, Larry, and Lee lose, leaving the table with nothing, and the lawyers win, leaving the table with stuffed pockets.

Jenny there are several rules in place for determination by the IRS of employee vs subcontract.... They exist because some companies don't want to deal with the employer tax burden and attempt to class employees who have no say in how or when they work as subs.....

maybe it's industry related but in construction the sub vs employee matters are common place and I've been involved in several investigations at this point and I can see no reason that the IRS will not pierce the subcontractor shields based on the way the WPBL ran things.... I understand that they were only paid a pittance but they were originally slated to get 26kish for the season... for most of these guy that 26k will meet the 90% rule since I am sure tournament winning are offset by expense which you know eat up anything you make trying to make a living that way.....

And the sole employer does not have to be for the whole year... If they were to make 90% of their income in the 26 weeks their contracts provided for then Larry was the sole employer.... Regardless of what they did when it fell thru to try and minimize the losses.....

I'd say the money list and the sponsorship money will play a great part in deciding who is or who isn't... but there are 3 other rules in place... Those hideous hockey jerseys bring it to 2 since WPBL provided their uniforms to the players.... providing clothes or tools is an auto home run......

The fact they played the game under the WPBL rules is another one on the warning track since they were provided the rules and regulations for the job they were to perform.... May be down to just 1....... financial control... I'm pretty sure that one is dead nuts employee because they had zero opportunity for profit aside from their wages and the loss was limited to the same.....

Like it or not... Ms. Tabb may be a sub..... The BBall girls may be subs... but the majority of the staff and players are going to be employees if the IRS knocks on the door......

 

[JAM]

Jenny there are several rules in place for determination by the IRS of employee vs subcontract.... They exist because some companies don't want to deal with the employer tax burden and attempt to class employees who have no say in how or when they work as subs.....

maybe it's industry related but in construction the sub vs employee matters are common place and I've been involved in several investigations at this point and I can see no reason that the IRS will not pierce the subcontractor shields based on the way the WPBL ran things.... I understand that they were only paid a pittance but they were originally slated to get 26kish for the season... for most of these guy that 26k will meet the 90% rule since I am sure tournament winning are offset by expense which you know eat up anything you make trying to make a living that way.....

And the sole employer does not have to be for the whole year... If they were to make 90% of their income in the 26 weeks their contracts provided for then Larry was the sole employer.... Regardless of what they did when it fell thru to try and minimize the losses.....

I'd say the money list and the sponsorship money will play a great part in deciding who is or who isn't... but there are 3 other rules in place... Those hideous hockey jerseys bring it to 2 since WPBL provided their uniforms to the players.... providing clothes or tools is an auto home run......

The fact they played the game under the WPBL rules is another one on the warning track since they were provided the rules and regulations for the job they were to perform.... May be down to just 1....... financial control... I'm pretty sure that one is dead nuts employee because they had zero opportunity for profit aside from their wages and the loss was limited to the same.....

Like it or not... Ms. Tabb may be a sub..... The BBall girls may be subs... but the majority of the staff and players are going to be employees if the IRS knocks on the door......

I have to disagree with you on this one, but that's okay. We are each entitled to our opinions.

If BB had them sign a contract, did not remove taxes, was not their sole income, they are ICs, not employees.

As well, if the players used their own equipment, not BB cues, this is another gray area when it comes to employees vs. ICs.

I cannot tell you how many tens of thousands of pages I have pored through on this topic in my life. Labor law disputes is something I run into all the time, and when it comes to employment status, the Tax Code is pretty clear:

Internal Revenue Service 20 point Checklist for Independent Contractor

Mistakenly classifying an employee as an independent contractor can result in significant fines and penalties. There are 20 factors used by the IRS to determine whether you have enough control over a worker to be an employer. Though these rules are intended only as a guide-the IRS says the importance of each factor depends on the individual circumstances. They should be helpful in determining whether you wield enough control to show an employer-employee relationship. If you answer “Yes” to all of the first four questions, you’re probably dealing with an independent contractor; “Yes” to any of questions 5 through 20 means your worker is probably an employee.

1. Profit or loss. Can the worker make a profit or suffer a loss as a result of the work, aside from the money earned from the project? (This should involve real economic risk-not just the risk of not getting paid.)

2. Investment. Does the worker have an investment in the equipment and facilities used to do the work? (The greater the investment, the more likely independent contractor status.)

3. Works for more than one firm. Does the person work for more than one company at a time? (This tends to indicate independent contractor status, but isn’t conclusive since employees can also work for more than one employer.)

4. Services offered to the general public. Does the worker offer services to the general public?

5. Instructions. Do you have the right to give the worker instructions about when, where, and how to work? (This shows control over the worker.)

6. Training. Do you train the worker to do the job in a particular way? (Independent contractors are already trained.)

7. Integration. Are the worker’s services so important to your business that they have become a necessary part of the business? (This may show that the worker is subject to your control.)

8. Services rendered personally. Must the worker provide the services personally, as opposed to delegating tasks to someone else? (This indicates that you are interested in the methods employed, and not just the results.)

9. Hiring assistants. Do you hire, supervise, and pay the worker’s assistants? (Independent contractors hire and pay their own staff.)

10. Continuing relationship. Is there an ongoing relationship between the worker and yourself? (A relationship can be considered ongoing if services are performed frequently, but irregularly.)

11. Work hours. Do you set the worker’s hours? (Independent contractors are masters of their own time.)

12. Full-time work. Must the worker spend all of his or her time on your job? (Independent contractors choose when and where they will work.)

13. Work done on premises. Must the individual work on your premises, or do you control the route or location where the work must be performed? (Answering no doesn’t by itself mean independent contractor status.)

14. Sequence. Do you have the right to determine the order in which services are performed? (This shows control over the worker)

15. Reports. Must the worker give you reports accounting for his or her actions? (This may show lack of independence)

16. Pay Schedules. Do you pay the worker by hour, week, or month? (Independent contractors are generally paid by the job or commission, although by industry practice, some are paid by the hour.)

17. Expenses. Do you pay the worker’s business or travel costs? (This tends to show control.)

18. Tools and materials. Do you provide the worker with equipment, tools, or materials?
(Independent contractors generally supply the materials for the job and use their own tools and equipment.)

19. Right to fire. Can you fire the worker? (An independent contractor can’t be fired without subjecting you to the risk of breach of contract lawsuit.)

20. Worker’s right to quit. Can the worker quit at any time, without incurring liability? (An independent contractor has a legal obligation to complete the contract.)

Read it and weep.

 

[The Renfro]

I have to disagree with you on this one, but that's okay. We are each entitled to our opinions.

If BB had them sign a contract, did not remove taxes, was not their sole income, they are ICs, not employees.

As well, if the players used their own equipment, not BB cues, this is another gray area when it comes to employees vs. ICs.

I cannot tell you how many tens of thousands of pages I have pored through on this topic in my life. Labor law disputes is something I run into all the time, and when it comes to employment status, the Tax Code is pretty clear:

Internal Revenue Service 20 point Checklist for Independent Contractor

Mistakenly classifying an employee as an independent contractor can result in significant fines and penalties. There are 20 factors used by the IRS to determine whether you have enough control over a worker to be an employer. Though these rules are intended only as a guide-the IRS says the importance of each factor depends on the individual circumstances. They should be helpful in determining whether you wield enough control to show an employer-employee relationship. If you answer “Yes” to all of the first four questions, you’re probably dealing with an independent contractor; “Yes” to any of questions 5 through 20 means your worker is probably an employee.

1. Profit or loss. Can the worker make a profit or suffer a loss as a result of the work, aside from the money earned from the project? (This should involve real economic risk-not just the risk of not getting paid.)

2. Investment. Does the worker have an investment in the equipment and facilities used to do the work? (The greater the investment, the more likely independent contractor status.)

3. Works for more than one firm. Does the person work for more than one company at a time? (This tends to indicate independent contractor status, but isn’t conclusive since employees can also work for more than one employer.)

4. Services offered to the general public. Does the worker offer services to the general public?

5. Instructions. Do you have the right to give the worker instructions about when, where, and how to work? (This shows control over the worker.)

6. Training. Do you train the worker to do the job in a particular way? (Independent contractors are already trained.)

7. Integration. Are the worker’s services so important to your business that they have become a necessary part of the business? (This may show that the worker is subject to your control.)

8. Services rendered personally. Must the worker provide the services personally, as opposed to delegating tasks to someone else? (This indicates that you are interested in the methods employed, and not just the results.)

9. Hiring assistants. Do you hire, supervise, and pay the worker’s assistants? (Independent contractors hire and pay their own staff.)

10. Continuing relationship. Is there an ongoing relationship between the worker and yourself? (A relationship can be considered ongoing if services are performed frequently, but irregularly.)

11. Work hours. Do you set the worker’s hours? (Independent contractors are masters of their own time.)

12. Full-time work. Must the worker spend all of his or her time on your job? (Independent contractors choose when and where they will work.)

13. Work done on premises. Must the individual work on your premises, or do you control the route or location where the work must be performed? (Answering no doesn’t by itself mean independent contractor status.)

14. Sequence. Do you have the right to determine the order in which services are performed? (This shows control over the worker)

15. Reports. Must the worker give you reports accounting for his or her actions? (This may show lack of independence)

16. Pay Schedules. Do you pay the worker by hour, week, or month? (Independent contractors are generally paid by the job or commission, although by industry practice, some are paid by the hour.)

17. Expenses. Do you pay the worker’s business or travel costs? (This tends to show control.)

18. Tools and materials. Do you provide the worker with equipment, tools, or materials?
(Independent contractors generally supply the materials for the job and use their own tools and equipment.)

19. Right to fire. Can you fire the worker? (An independent contractor can’t be fired without subjecting you to the risk of breach of contract lawsuit.)

20. Worker’s right to quit. Can the worker quit at any time, without incurring liability? (An independent contractor has a legal obligation to complete the contract.)

Larry will Read it and weep.

Jenny FYP!!!

I am familiar with them... have argued them... will come down to the agent sent to investigate.... Guessing maybe Lee can go breach if you are correct =) Otherwise I can see a decent lawyer painting most all of these as employee status... I have a 3 hour drive or I'd give it a shot... Maybe tonight =)

Chris

 

[JAM]

Jenny FYP!!!

I am familiar with them... have argued them... will come down to the agent sent to investigate.... Guessing maybe Lee can go breach if you are correct =) Otherwise I can see a decent lawyer painting most all of these as employee status... I have a 3 hour drive or I'd give it a shot... Maybe tonight =)

Chris

Now you understand why nobody will win. Lee and Bonus Ball both lose if it moves forward to litigation. Each of those points can be argued by lawyers before a ruling authority, which takes time and money.

Lee signed the contract, didn't retain it, and doesn't have a leg to stand on in this regard. If Lee can win on anything, which I highly doubt based on the law, Bonus Ball can easily cry bankruptcy and go belly up. IOW, if there is even a remote chance Lee has of winning, he still walks away with empty pockets.

As Doug says, it's time for Lee to stop licking his wounds. He needs to move on.

 

[Black-Balled]

Pool/billiards needs a boots, hope it can make to tv.




Rob.M

Hellz yeah!

If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.

 

[JAM]

Hellz yeah!

If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.

Then these Bonus Ball boots are made for walking ---> HERE :grin-square:

Man, I can't believe we used to dance like that.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Interesting conversation I copied and pasted from Facebook. You get to see the players perspectives on this whole thing. I have my opinion on things and my thoughts on Bonus Ball and will post it later this week in depth and in detail.


Dave McColl: Just wrapped the filming for the regular season of the WPBL. It has been a long year full of twists and turns but I wouldn't trade it for anything. Great work by everyone involved. Time to celebrate.. — with Nathan DuMoulin and 44 others.

Kim Spies: Kind of bittersweet...looking forward to the playoffs! Thanks for all of the hard work everyone!
November 10 at 2:22am · Like · 4

Dennis Hatch: Where is the celebration lol?
November 10 at 2:31am · Like · 4

Fast Lenny: Cosmo at Chandelier bar. Come on Hatchetman!
November 10 at 2:33am · Like · 4

An Dy: glückwunsch
November 10 at 2:46am · Like

Michaela Tabb: Have fun! I did a quiet disappearing act! If I had missed my flight tomorrow Ross Mcinnes would have divorced me! xx
November 10 at 5:04am · Like · 4

Jenn Mc: Congrats!!
November 10 at 5:40am via mobile · Like

Stevie Moore: Pool table on 4th floor of Cosmo if anyone gets the itch. Like y'all didn't already know.
November 10 at 5:44am via mobile · Like · 2

Justin Hall: Oh we knew Stevie..
November 10 at 8:14am · Like · 2

Rupi Hundal: Congratulations!! And have fun celebrating.
November 10 at 8:58am via mobile · Like · 2

Warren Kiamco: Congrats guys for your hardworks!!
November 10 at 10:03am via mobile · Like · 4

Shannon Daulton: Words cant describe what a great job y'all have done for us!!!! Thank you very very much!!!!
November 10 at 11:57am via mobile · Like · 4

Oscar Dominguez: Word. Thanks everyone. Glad it all worked out in the end. Happy holidays everyone
November 10 at 12:05pm via mobile · Like · 4

Manny Chau: I feel much honored to be part of a excellent production I know to the hard work done in long working thank you very much production team
U guys awesome!!
November 10 at 12:10pm via mobile · Like · 5

Brandon Shuff: Thanks to everyone involved especially the staff. Everyone rocked it out!
It felt pretty legit this time around and hoping for more play in the near future. #BonusBallin
November 10 at 12:33pm via mobile · Like · 4

Lee Brett: Steve, the WPBL is now being investigated by the IRS and labor deapartment, so good luck with any future league... You guys make out it is great but the treatment behind the scenes is disgraceful and none of you stood up and said anything, all you was bothered about was being paid, shame on you.
8 hours ago · Edited · Like

Oscar Dominguez: Look lee, Idk what happened but how aren't we suppose to be happy for being paid what was owed?

Between my dad and I, we got 8900. I pay my taxes and uncle Sam takes a big bite of my ass every year so no problem reporting that. ...See More
7 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 13

Justin Michael Acker: Oscar! !!!
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Darren Appleton: Keep hold of your hotel /flights travel expensive day to day living reciepts and be hardly any tax to pay guys . In fact they should be paying me money lol.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Justin Michael Acker: Oscar Dominguez, the thing I admired the most was seeing you and your father at just about every match... love the support!
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3

Justin Hall: How could we not support a guy who is doing everything in his power to build pro pool someway or another, through all the ups and downs. . I'm just glad to be part of it all!!! And lee, put down the hater aid for a minute... This must be your firs...See More
7 hours ago · Like · 8

Raj Hundal: For the first time in my career I saw players stick together and have each other's backs, in my world that's respect. Pool would have been in a much better place if this ethic was implemented decades ago. Although we can't fix the past we can fix the future!!!
about a minute ago via mobile · Like

 

[lee brett]

Now you understand why nobody will win. Lee and Bonus Ball both lose if it moves forward to litigation. Each of those points can be argued by lawyers before a ruling authority, which takes time and money.

Lee signed the contract, didn't retain it, and doesn't have a leg to stand on in this regard. If Lee can win on anything, which I highly doubt based on the law, Bonus Ball can easily cry bankruptcy and go belly up. IOW, if there is even a remote chance Lee has of winning, he still walks away with empty pockets.

As Doug says, it's time for Lee to stop licking his wounds. He needs to move on.

Someone has to stand up for once, otherwise this will continue to happen.

Jenny i have messages off Numerous staff with all the abuse and threats off them, do you think its right in July when all the checks were made out they deliberately left my check out and said you won't be paid unless you sign the video release... That is blackmail...

 

[PINKLADY]

....Someone has to stand up for once, otherwise this will continue to happen.

Jenny i have messages off Numerous staff with all the abuse and threats off them, do you think its right in July when all the checks were made out they deliberately left my check out and said you won't be paid unless you sign the video release... That is blackmail...

....someone has to stand up to this or it will continue.

NO - it's called DURESS, in the US, Lee.

if you agree to something under DURESS, then it's NULL & VOID, in the eyes of THE COURT.
(kinda like the Players being FORCED to come to Vegas @ their own expense, to pickup PAST DUE PMTS - they are entitled to recompense for said)

 

[JAM]

If i end up not getting 1 cent, then what difference is it to me, bonus ball never paid us anyways. If they get fined and are found guilty of all these breaches and costs Larry a lot of money and then they act by the law, then maybe one day the players will thank me for protecting them and all future pool players and events.

Someone has to stand up for once, otherwise this will continue to happen.

Jenny i have messages off Numerous staff with all the abuse and threats off them, do you think its right in July when all the checks were made out they deliberately left my check out and said you won't be paid unless you sign the video release... That is blackmail...

...So quit with the move on, someone has to stand up to this or it will continue.

I am going to give you an example of a situation that I was in, similar to yours in that I was obsessed with going after this entity. It happened about 30-plus years ago. This company did a home repair on my mother's home that never took care of the problem. She unfortunately passed away in the middle of the work. They wanted to get paid, and I refused to pay them one red cent. What they did to the home did NOTHING to fix the problem -- NOTHING.

They served me with papers and were going to sue to get paid. Me working in the courts for years and having familiarity with the court procedures, I replied in writing, filed all the necessary papers, filed interrogatories, answers to interrogatories, et cetera. We went to court two times, with me representing myself. I had charts, photos, witnesses. I was not going to let them take advantage of me when I knew damn well I was right.

This went on for 2 years -- filing papers, replying to court papers, going to court. I was so angry that I actually had trouble sleeping during this time. I was obsessed with this case. They were definitely in the wrong. In fact, a judge said to us in judge's chambers, right in front of their attorneys, that their case had problems.

Well, more legal paperwork came my way, and it soon became way beyond my level of expertise. They, of course, had an attorney on retainer. Didn't cost them a thing. Me, I was doing all the work myself. I finally contacted a lawyer to get help. I was ready to admit that I was in over my head dealing with their attorneys and their voluminous legal paperwork.

This lawyer gave me the best advice. He told me that my case was solid, and that I would win in court. The problem, however, was the lawsuit was $2,000, and to defend it in court, it would cost close to $5,000. He advised me to settle with them, for me to pay them $500 and drop it. That was a hard pill for me to swallow. I didn't want to give them anything. Even though I knew I was in the right, this was my lawyer's counsel to me.

I only wish I had known that at the beginning of the 2-year battle. IOW, even when you win in court, you lose when it comes to time, energy, and money. :wink:

All that negative energy could have been better spent on something else in my life. I think this is what some folks on this thread, who are your friends, want you to realize.

 

[lee brett]

I am going to give you an example of a situation that I was in, similar to yours in that I was obsessed with going after this entity. It happened about 30-plus years ago. This company did a home repair on my mother's home that never took care of the problem. She unfortunately passed away in the middle of the work. They wanted to get paid, and I refused to pay them one red cent. What they did to the home did NOTHING to fix the problem -- NOTHING.

They served me with papers and were going to sue to get paid. Me working in the courts for years and having familiarity with the court procedures, I replied in writing, filed all the necessary papers, filed interrogatories, answers to interrogatories, et cetera. We went to court two times, with me representing myself. I had charts, photos, witnesses. I was not going to let them take advantage of me when I knew damn well I was right.

This went on for 2 years -- filing papers, replying to court papers, going to court. I was so angry that I actually had trouble sleeping during this time. I was obsessed with this case. They were definitely in the wrong. In fact, a judge said to us in judge's chambers, right in front of their attorneys, that their case had problems.

Well, more legal paperwork came my way, and it soon became way beyond my level of expertise. They, of course, had an attorney on retainer. Didn't cost them a thing. Me, I was doing all the work myself. I finally contacted a lawyer to get help. I was ready to admit that I was in over my head dealing with their attorneys and their voluminous legal paperwork.

This lawyer gave me the best advice. He told me that my case was solid, and that I would win in court. The problem, however, was the lawsuit was $2,000, and to defend it in court, it would cost close to $5,000. He advised me to settle for $500 and drop it. Even though I was in the right, this was his counsel to me.

I only wish I had known that at the beginning of the 2-year battle. IOW, even when you win in court, you lose when it comes to time, energy, and money. :wink:

All that negative energy could have been better spent on something else in my life. I think this is what some folks on this thread, who are your friends, want you to realize.

Hey Jenny,

Not obsessed with it, also its costs me nothing the labor department go after them. I am an employee as i was given a uniform and told when to work. Don't mis read into things i have no negative energy, i am working doing what i do best and am i very happy.

We all know there won't be anymore bonus ball. They wanna settle it amicably, they know my number and email. When something you are doing which is right, then god always looks after you, when you are in the wrong and deceitful you get what is coming to you. Karma is defo not bonus balls friend.

 

[PINKLADY]

i knew i saved this for a reason....

 

[Cory in DC]

Interesting conversation I copied and pasted from Facebook. You get to see the players perspectives on this whole thing. I have my opinion on things and my thoughts on Bonus Ball and will post it later this week in depth and in detail.


Dave McColl: Just wrapped the filming for the regular season of the WPBL. It has been a long year full of twists and turns but I wouldn't trade it for anything. Great work by everyone involved. Time to celebrate.. — with Nathan DuMoulin and 44 others.

Kim Spies: Kind of bittersweet...looking forward to the playoffs! Thanks for all of the hard work everyone!
November 10 at 2:22am · Like · 4

Dennis Hatch: Where is the celebration lol?
November 10 at 2:31am · Like · 4

Fast Lenny: Cosmo at Chandelier bar. Come on Hatchetman!
November 10 at 2:33am · Like · 4

An Dy: glückwunsch
November 10 at 2:46am · Like

Michaela Tabb: Have fun! I did a quiet disappearing act! If I had missed my flight tomorrow Ross Mcinnes would have divorced me! xx
November 10 at 5:04am · Like · 4

Jenn Mc: Congrats!!
November 10 at 5:40am via mobile · Like

Stevie Moore: Pool table on 4th floor of Cosmo if anyone gets the itch. Like y'all didn't already know.
November 10 at 5:44am via mobile · Like · 2

Justin Hall: Oh we knew Stevie..
November 10 at 8:14am · Like · 2

Rupi Hundal: Congratulations!! And have fun celebrating.
November 10 at 8:58am via mobile · Like · 2

Warren Kiamco: Congrats guys for your hardworks!!
November 10 at 10:03am via mobile · Like · 4

Shannon Daulton: Words cant describe what a great job y'all have done for us!!!! Thank you very very much!!!!
November 10 at 11:57am via mobile · Like · 4

Oscar Dominguez: Word. Thanks everyone. Glad it all worked out in the end. Happy holidays everyone
November 10 at 12:05pm via mobile · Like · 4

Manny Chau: I feel much honored to be part of a excellent production I know to the hard work done in long working thank you very much production team
U guys awesome!!
November 10 at 12:10pm via mobile · Like · 5

Brandon Shuff: Thanks to everyone involved especially the staff. Everyone rocked it out!
It felt pretty legit this time around and hoping for more play in the near future. #BonusBallin
November 10 at 12:33pm via mobile · Like · 4

Lee Brett: Steve, the WPBL is now being investigated by the IRS and labor deapartment, so good luck with any future league... You guys make out it is great but the treatment behind the scenes is disgraceful and none of you stood up and said anything, all you was bothered about was being paid, shame on you.
8 hours ago · Edited · Like

Oscar Dominguez: Look lee, Idk what happened but how aren't we suppose to be happy for being paid what was owed?

Between my dad and I, we got 8900. I pay my taxes and uncle Sam takes a big bite of my ass every year so no problem reporting that. ...See More
7 hours ago via mobile · Unlike · 13

Justin Michael Acker: Oscar! !!!
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Darren Appleton: Keep hold of your hotel /flights travel expensive day to day living reciepts and be hardly any tax to pay guys . In fact they should be paying me money lol.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

Justin Michael Acker: Oscar Dominguez, the thing I admired the most was seeing you and your father at just about every match... love the support!
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3

Justin Hall: How could we not support a guy who is doing everything in his power to build pro pool someway or another, through all the ups and downs. . I'm just glad to be part of it all!!! And lee, put down the hater aid for a minute... This must be your firs...See More
7 hours ago · Like · 8

Raj Hundal: For the first time in my career I saw players stick together and have each other's backs, in my world that's respect. Pool would have been in a much better place if this ethic was implemented decades ago. Although we can't fix the past we can fix the future!!!
about a minute ago via mobile · Like

Lenny -- Don't go posting positive stuff here. You're going to kill the hate session.

FTR, I will be shocked if its true that the IRS or any labor board is looking at this.

 

[PINKLADY]

Steve Strain
Voice of the WPBL

Steve:

please hand a message to Kim Spies - that I AM STILL ON HOLD SINCE AUG
RE: $1400 o-o-p

thank you.


(yes, JAM, i've got a $1400 dog in this fight - but at least we never flew out, or it'd be a $4K dog.)

.

 

[Vlr]

Steve.... Have you seen the books?? The players and staff were paid 6 figures but 7 figures are missing if we are to believe what Larry said when he told everyone that the money for 2 seasons was in the bank... 2 million???

I haven't and it's not for me to see. And I can't speak for what everyone was told prior to May when I arrived. I just know there were some inconsistencies in what Lee posted with what I have witnessed, and the league has done it's best to compensate everyone in the hopes of building something.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I haven't and it's not for me to see. And I can't speak for what everyone was told prior to May when I arrived. I just know there were some inconsistencies in what Lee posted with what I have witnessed, and the league has done it's best to compensate everyone in the hopes of building something.

Was Lee paid more than 2 weeks worth of his 6 weeks worked, which was based on a 26 week contract?

No.