Brazilian Rosewood for real?

ScottR

ScottR

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This will probably stir a hornets nest or get no responses, but what the heck.

I see a lot of thread selling Brazilian rosewood. How do you know that they are legit? It's a highly desirable wood that is controlled for many years. Why do so many people have it available lately?

Same goes for cues that have (supposedly) been built using Braz. How do you know for sure, as a buyer?

I've been told one telltale sign to determine if it is really Braz, but you can't do that over the internet.

Scott
 
ScottR said:
This will probably stir a hornets nest or get no responses, but what the heck.

I see a lot of thread selling Brazilian rosewood. How do you know that they are legit? It's a highly desirable wood that is controlled for many years. Why do so many people have it available lately?

Same goes for cues that have (supposedly) been built using Braz. How do you know for sure, as a buyer?

I've been told one telltale sign to determine if it is really Braz, but you can't do that over the internet.

Scott
Click to expand...

Same as any other purchase - deal with people who are trustworthy...

I have a good bit of Dalbergia Nigra that I have had for decades.

IIRC - the ban wasn't enacted 'till the 80s - by then there was tons
of Brazilian in America - some of it is still being uncovered.

No doubt - there are scammers trying to pass wood off as B. Rosewood.
I assume there are proceedures for determining specific species, tho
I have no idea how that would be done. Also, not so practical.

IMHO - any double secret test that relies on visual inspection by the
unaided eye, or anything involving simple tools is very unlikely to be
conclusive.

Dale
 
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Talking of protected wood reminds me of some wood I have a chance to buy that is protected now. The seller has had the wood for a very long time. It is Cuban Mahogany, I'm not sure what it looks like but I may have to go and check it out.

It sounds like it would be a good fit for cue making from this small article I rad about its warping resistance, but Im not sure how it looks.

Due to Cuban mahogany's warping resistance, it was used to build the Spanish Armada ships created to attempt conquest of England in 1588. In a reaction to extreme logging, Cuban mahogany is now protected by conservation laws. Other names associated with Cuban mahogany are Santo Domingan and Spanish mahogany. This type of mahogany is durable and has a medium to deep reddish brown coloring and a coarse texture. A common use for Cuban mahogany is fine furniture.
 
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It occasionally becomes available here in Florida after storms and I have worked on furniture built in the early 1800's and late 1700's made of true Cuban mahogany and as far as I can see. it is a little lightweight for cues and pretty boring. Unlike a chest of drawers or a table, we are working with surfaces measured in a few square inches or less and there are too many other, better woods available, to be bothered.

When it comes to true brazilian rosewood, the nose is the best identifier I know of. It has its' own smell.
 
Paul Dayton said:
It occasionally becomes available here in Florida after storms and I have worked on furniture built in the early 1800's and late 1700's made of true Cuban mahogany and as far as I can see. it is a little lightweight for cues and pretty boring. Unlike a chest of drawers or a table, we are working with surfaces measured in a few square inches or less and there are too many other, better woods available, to be bothered.

When it comes to true brazilian rosewood, the nose is the best identifier I know of. It has its' own smell.
Click to expand...

The smell of brazilian rosewood is so easy to identify as tulipwood when you cut it.
 
ScottR said:
This will probably stir a hornets nest or get no responses, but what the heck.

I see a lot of thread selling Brazilian rosewood. How do you know that they are legit? It's a highly desirable wood that is controlled for many years. Why do so many people have it available lately?

Same goes for cues that have (supposedly) been built using Braz. How do you know for sure, as a buyer?

I've been told one telltale sign to determine if it is really Braz, but you can't do that over the internet.

Scott
Click to expand...

Until you cut it, you don't know 100% of course.
The smell and that dust...
But, BR does have a distinct look. Even the darker ones.
Great wood for cues. Known to be the best .
I can argue Pernambuco is better but that's another topic.
 
Unless you can get to the raw wood you have the trust the source it's coming from. As mentioned, to a discerning eye, it usually can be picked out of the line up but even that can be a guess in some instances.
 
Your best protection is your own personal knowledge.
This isn't a game for the faint of heart or the uneducated.
Know your subject until you can't get it wrong. Know what you're looking at.
EBay has always been a crap-shoot at best but both of those sellers are showing Brazilian Rose.
I haven't bought from the first seller but I have bought from the second.
The first sellers 'BIN' price may seem high but that's what it goes for.
Trust me, it will sell. That's a particularly nice board.
Chances are that it won't be bought by a cue-maker. It will be bought by a Luthier(guitar-maker).

I have bought on several occasions from the second seller, 'film4'.
He does offer some decent wood at times but you have to keep your eyes open.
One red-flag for me on this seller is that he lists everything as 'dead-on quartersawn'. Well, obviously it's not, particularly when you know what quartersawn end-grain looks like. What he sells is 'slab wood' and most of his buyers know this. 'Dead-on & 'quartersawn' are his buzz words. You learn to put-up with these idiosyncrasies if you want the wood.

There's not much Br. Rose left. Most of what's left on the market today is 'slab-wood'.
This is wood that is being cut from the stumps of trees that were felled in the 60s, 70s and 80s. That's about all that's left to be offered to the world market.
New finds will not leave the country.

So....we buy what we can when it's offered and pay what is asked if we want it.
Know what you're looking at or find someone who does.
 
Thanks for all of the replies. I'd been told about the "sniff" test. But like you all said, that doesn't work for a cue already built

I appreciate the knowledge sharing.

Scott
 
Hi,

My friend goes to Brazil 12 times a year and he brings me back BR that he buys legally in the lumber yard that has been harvested before the shit hit the fan.

They call the wood species "Jacaranda" in Portuguese. Good stuff!!

Rick G
 
will8834 said:
Talking of protected wood reminds me of some wood I have a chance to buy that is protected now. The seller has had the wood for a very long time. It is Cuban Mahogany, I'm not sure what it looks like but I may have to go and check it out.

It sounds like it would be a good fit for cue making from this small article I rad about its warping resistance, but Im not sure how it looks.

Due to Cuban mahogany's warping resistance, it was used to build the Spanish Armada ships created to attempt conquest of England in 1588. In a reaction to extreme logging, Cuban mahogany is now protected by conservation laws. Other names associated with Cuban mahogany are Santo Domingan and Spanish mahogany. This type of mahogany is durable and has a medium to deep reddish brown coloring and a coarse texture. A common use for Cuban mahogany is fine furniture.
Click to expand...

I could be mistaken but the Spanish like the wood so much that they transported creating groves in other islands. I have no idea whether the wood from these small groves is truly equal or not but it does carry the Cuban Mahogany name. It's just growing somewhere else. :)

Mario
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

My friend goes to Brazil 12 times a year and he brings me back BR that he buys legally in the lumber yard that has been harvested before the shit hit the fan.

They call the wood species "Jacaranda" in Portuguese. Good stuff!!

Rick G
Click to expand...

Rick,
Jacaranda means rosewood, then you have all the jacaranda family from brazil like tulipwood, jacaranda paulista, kingwood (purple jacaranda), etc.
There is a huge jacaranda family tree not only in brazil but around the globe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
When you ask if it's dalbergia nigra and they act like they don't know what you're talking about ....it may be a fake.
Gotta love that one auction with wax so thick over the billet you can barely see wood grain under it. It may or may not be from Brazil and it may or may not be rosewood...but by golly I'll call it Brazilian Rosewood and sucker somebodies money into my pocket.
 
barenbruggecues said:
when you ask if it's dalbergia nigra and they act like they don't know what you're talking about ....it may be a fake.
Gotta love that one auction with wax so thick over the billet you can barely see wood grain under it. It may or may not be from brazil and it may or may not be rosewood...but by golly i'll call it brazilian rosewood and sucker somebodies money into my pocket.
Click to expand...

+1
..............
 
A big shout-out THANKS to Kenny Koo for sending me a sample to check out!

As many of you know, Kenny builds up big positive karma points by helping a bunch of people.

Scott
 
will8834 said:
Talking of protected wood reminds me of some wood I have a chance to buy that is protected now. The seller has had the wood for a very long time. It is Cuban Mahogany, I'm not sure what it looks like but I may have to go and check it out.

It sounds like it would be a good fit for cue making from this small article I rad about its warping resistance, but Im not sure how it looks.

Due to Cuban mahogany's warping resistance, it was used to build the Spanish Armada ships created to attempt conquest of England in 1588. In a reaction to extreme logging, Cuban mahogany is now protected by conservation laws. Other names associated with Cuban mahogany are Santo Domingan and Spanish mahogany. This type of mahogany is durable and has a medium to deep reddish brown coloring and a coarse texture. A common use for Cuban mahogany is fine furniture.
Click to expand...

Cuban mahogany is dark amberish in color and has a smooth grainless appearance similar to African mahogany.
 
Warning

KJ Cues said:
Your best protection is your own personal knowledge.
This isn't a game for the faint of heart or the uneducated.
Know your subject until you can't get it wrong. Know what you're looking at.
EBay has always been a crap-shoot at best but both of those sellers are showing Brazilian Rose.
I haven't bought from the first seller but I have bought from the second.
The first sellers 'BIN' price may seem high but that's what it goes for.
Trust me, it will sell. That's a particularly nice board.
Chances are that it won't be bought by a cue-maker. It will be bought by a Luthier(guitar-maker).

I have bought on several occasions from the second seller, 'film4'.
He does offer some decent wood at times but you have to keep your eyes open.
One red-flag for me on this seller is that he lists everything as 'dead-on quartersawn'. Well, obviously it's not, particularly when you know what quartersawn end-grain looks like. What he sells is 'slab wood' and most of his buyers know this. 'Dead-on & 'quartersawn' are his buzz words. You learn to put-up with these idiosyncrasies if you want the wood.

There's not much Br. Rose left. Most of what's left on the market today is 'slab-wood'.
This is wood that is being cut from the stumps of trees that were felled in the 60s, 70s and 80s. That's about all that's left to be offered to the world market.
New finds will not leave the country.

So....we buy what we can when it's offered and pay what is asked if we want it.
Know what you're looking at or find someone who does.
Click to expand...

A couple of years ago I went to New York to look at a huge supply of Brazilian Rosewood I had intended on buying all of. Well it was a rosewood, and it could be from Brazil I don't know. But what I did, and do know is that it's not "Dalbergia Nigra". What a wasted trip that was.

KJ, I hope I'm wrong but if you bought wood from Film4 that looks just like the wood he's selling now, and has been for a couple of years I would suggest you check into what you received a little further. I can tell you for sure that this wood he has listed now isn't "Dalbergia Nigra". 1st warning should be that if the wood is legit it would be more than 20years old, so why is it freshly waxed all over instead of only the ends? Plus there are a few traits that "Dalbergia Nigra" has that's missing in the wood from Film4. I also had someone bring in a piece from him just the other day, and it wasn't the real deal. I don't know this for sure, but I believe the wood he's selling is from the large stock I looked at in NY. It's the same kind of wood.
I also noticed a couple of other listings on ebay where the same wood was being sold as Brazilian. Buyers beware.

Dennis
 
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