Breaking Mosconi's 526

[longhair]

If you can put together a million dollar prize, or even a quarter of a million, you are going to get quite a few players practicing and shooting at it. I predict that once 526 is surpassed, new records will be set fairly often for a little while. I don't like the idea that one player makes 532 and gets a million, then the next week someone else runs 750 and gets nothing. Is there some way to cut up the prize money to continue rewarding record-breaking runs? Perhaps a flat award for breaking the current record and something per ball over it? Or something else?

With serious money at stake, I think we would see 526 fall in the near future, particularly if the table is generous (someone mentioned 4.75" pockets).

 

[ugotactionTX]

Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

 

[tksix]

This almost feels sacrilegious to me. Like messing with the pool Gods. Please don't get me wrong, I think this is a great idea and a great way to get 14.1 back into the spot light. But, Mosconi is our legend almost immortal.

In MY perfect world, John Schmidt would run 526 balls and be straight in on 527.............................take his cue apart and go have dinner. Keeping the legend alive, and proving to us what we already believe, that John could do it.

Kinda like Barry Sanders when he retired just before breaking Walter Payton's all time rushing record. He kept his hero's "legend" in tact and just walked away.....................we all knew he could do it and he proved he beyond a doubt he could.

I always viewed that as a class act!!!!!

Regardless I would love to watch anyone run that many balls!

 

[BillYards]

I think Barry Bonds should have done the same thing for the homerun record. He should have quit one HR short of a tie. Now it is just a slimey record on the books.

I also hope that nobody breaks the record officially.

 

[av84fun]

Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

I agree that shooting at Mosconi's record must include the same table specs...including table length, pocket specs...NOT just width...and cloth.

Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

Regards,
Jim

 

[dabarbr]

I honestly don't know. I know it's his high run, and he lists it on his site as if it's a record of some sort, but I'm not sure what the official high run on a 9' table is.

526 will be very, very tough to beat. I'm not saying it can't happen, or it won't happen, but someone still has to step up and do it. It is definitely not a foregone conclusion that it will happen.

526 will be hard to beat. But if it was done once it can be done again. All records are made to be broken.

Maybe we should all start practicing.

 

[ShootingArts]

apples and oranges

Jim,

To shoot at Mosconi's record it should have to be done in exhibition. To make it fair those chasing it should have paid sponsors and shoot the many dozens of exhibitions Mosconi shot each year too.

In other words, it will never be exactly the same. Mosconi's record is the one that is somewhat artificial since it was set on what is generally accepted as a nonstandard table under nonstandard conditions. I hope we have a new record set on a standard table. Then chasing that record will mean much more in my opinion, sacred cows or not.

Hu

I agree that shooting at Mosconi's record must include the same table specs...including table length, pocket specs...NOT just width...and cloth.

Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Jim,

To shoot at Mosconi's record it should have to be done in exhibition. To make it fair those chasing it should have paid sponsors and shoot the many dozens of exhibitions Mosconi shot each year too.

In other words, it will never be exactly the same. Mosconi's record is the one that is somewhat artificial since it was set on what is generally accepted as a nonstandard table under nonstandard conditions. I hope we have a new record set on a standard table. Then chasing that record will mean much more in my opinion, sacred cows or not.

Hu

The event proposed is, in effect, an exhibition. I agree that the table was "non-standard" since the proposition is specifically to beat the Mosconi record, then the only thing to do would be to duplicate the playing conditions as closely as possible.

Any record set on a 9 ft. table would be a record unto itself and would have nothing to do with the MOSCONI record.

However, since the vast majority of shots in 14.1 take place on the lower half of the table, the difference between a 9 ft. and 8 ft. table would produce a MAXIMUM distance differential of only 6 inches and a median differential of only about 3 inches so the table size is not a big deal IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

If you can put together a million dollar prize, or even a quarter of a million, you are going to get quite a few players practicing and shooting at it. I predict that once 526 is surpassed, new records will be set fairly often for a little while. I don't like the idea that one player makes 532 and gets a million, then the next week someone else runs 750 and gets nothing. Is there some way to cut up the prize money to continue rewarding record-breaking runs? Perhaps a flat award for breaking the current record and something per ball over it? Or something else?

With serious money at stake, I think we would see 526 fall in the near future, particularly if the table is generous (someone mentioned 4.75" pockets).

Without a reason to travel to the venue other than the 14.1 challenge, few players would go to the expense of travel for what would be no better than a 100-1 chance of winning....IMHO.

Here are the results from the Bob Jewett Straight Pool Challenge at the DCC. Note that many of the top 14.1 players in the world competed.

"The top prelim score was by Mika Immonen who ran 147 balls. He
came in as the defending champion having scored a 160 in the
finals in 2007. The other top scores were 140 by Fabio Petroni
from Italy, 126 by Niels Feijen, 107 by Corey Deuel, 100 by John
Schmidt, 98 by Thorsten Hohmann, 92 by Ralf Souquet, and a
barely-squeeked-in 73 by Appleton. Feijen had two other runs
over 100 and only took 10 of his permitted 12 tries. Hohmann had
three runs of 98, just missing the magic 100. "

These players had TWELVE innings to score their runs and the high run was 147.

Bob, what was the high run in the history of your event? I doubt it was over 250 and that involves hundres of innings.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Johnnyt]

Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

Yes. I was waiting for someone to bring that up. I don't believe any of the 1000000 people that say / said they were there in that SMALL place know for sure what size pockets he was shooting into. I say if your going to do it, make it a new world record on a 4 1/2X9 table. Johnnyt

 

[thedude]

Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

Willie's record was set on an eight foot table. It is documented on the affidavit of the witnesses as can be seen here. I also want to say the pockets were large, maybe 5 1/2" but I can't quote a source on that one. I know Dyer has a chapter dedicated to the Mosconi run in " The Hustler and The Champ." If you give some of todays players a table with the same specs that Mosconi ran 526 on, I think the record would be broken relatively quickly.

The record was also set in Springfield, OH. I think if the record's going to be broken it shoot be done in Springfield. I say this for selfish reasons, as that is an easy drive for me to witness the million dollar spectacle.

 

[bfdlad]

Everyone,
I have always wanted to see pool's most known record (Mosconi running 526) challenged and possibly eclipsed. I have been an avid player and lifelong fan of pool. I am very fortunate to be in a financial position to do something in pool for both mine and "the pool world's" satisfaction. Since I no longer play pool I really want to see someone break the 526 mark. I want to try to find sponsership or to try to obtain an insurance policy (i.e Lloyd's of London) in conjunction with a sizable contribution from my own funds, to see if I could raise a guaranteed 1 million prize to anyone that could break Willie's 526. I want to set up a "loose" if possible Diamond at most major tournaments and charge a nominal ($100) entry to try and find a champion to run 527. I am willing to put my money in this venture if I can secure a policy or additional sponsership to make this happen. Anyone that has any ideas please share them with me. Fortunatly I am in a position where I can make something like this happen and it would be great for the game. It may draw interest to a lost artform (14.1) Greg Sullivan please PM me with a way to get a hold of you I would like your input about your tables for this. This could be like the million dollar challenge that Earl won, but with this whomever could break the record would get the advertised prize (whatever that would be I want to at least make it a mill, I will heavily support this). I think I can make this happen any ideas please share them.

In doing some research before on something simular I found that there is a company that specializes in this kind of thing. They do things like hole in one contests etc and they pay Millions out every year. Although everyones ideas on how to put this together are great, the company that insures it will be making pretty much all the calls. If you look up Hole in one contests I am sure that you will find this company. I could find it but it will take me a while. I spoke to them before as I said and this will also make it so that you don't have to put your own $$ in. Let me know if you don't find it and I will make sure that I get it for you. Let me know,

 

[BillYards]

I am pretty sure the actual table is still around. Somebody said they had seen it a few years back...

I don't think an insurance company will bite on the million dollar prize. Sponsors, entry fees, pay per view, etc. will have to pay for this.

 

[bfdlad]

I am pretty sure the actual table is still around. Somebody said they had seen it a few years back...

I don't think an insurance company will bite on the million dollar prize. Sponsors, entry fees, pay per view, etc. will have to pay for this.

See post #33. There is a company out there, I was going to do something like make the 9 on the break at an event. It was for less $$ but they told me they do million dollar deals all over the world for different sports.

 

[Johnnyt]

Insurance companies don't gamble anymore. They only sign you up if THEY HAVE THE NUTS. Johnnyt

 

[ShootingArts]

Difference

Jim,

The game is as much or more about positioning the cue ball and breaking out balls than it is about making balls. Having played a lot of pool in general on seven, eight, and nine foot tables, I do believe the eight footer is the easiest to play on. It doesn't have the congestion of a seven footer or the distances of the nine footer.

Although I never really played 14.1, I did play a lot of snooker where the playing style is quite similar since the goal for most of the game is to make a red ball and the seven over and over using the two corner pockets almost exclusively. Every extra inch the cue ball had to travel to accomplish another goal after hitting the object ball was a big deal.

The pockets, table size, the balls and how clean they are, everything becomes a big deal when trying to run over 37 racks without a miss. To break Mosconi's record we would indeed need the exact conditions but we would not have a new record for the next person to shoot for unless we again set up the same conditions. I think it makes far more sense to set up a typical table and establish a new record on it. Harder to do but once done it is a record that can be readily shot for again.

I do think that any new 14.1 record chased by the world's best and shot in public for a huge prize will be accepted as the new world record and that is the key. Many people would disagree that Willie Mosconi has the highest run in history. Far fewer would disagree that he has the accepted world record. A new generally accepted world record seems to be the goal here.

Hu

The event proposed is, in effect, an exhibition. I agree that the table was "non-standard" since the proposition is specifically to beat the Mosconi record, then the only thing to do would be to duplicate the playing conditions as closely as possible.

Any record set on a 9 ft. table would be a record unto itself and would have nothing to do with the MOSCONI record.

However, since the vast majority of shots in 14.1 take place on the lower half of the table, the difference between a 9 ft. and 8 ft. table would produce a MAXIMUM distance differential of only 6 inches and a median differential of only about 3 inches so the table size is not a big deal IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I really want to see someone break the 526 mark ...

I see several problems with your plan as outlined.

I may have misread him, but I don't think Greg Sullivan is interested in setting a record with a loose table. He would like to see 200 on a standard table and he continues to offer a prize for that at DCC.

I'm willing to bet that no insurance company will underwrite a long-term competition like you describe unless the premium is over $500,000 and the time is limited to a year or some similar length of time. At one of the Sang Lee 3-cushion tournaments, there was a $1,000,000 prize offered if a player could match ball placement from a break shot by Blomdahl, but that was underwritten by a carom fan who happened to have $1,000,000 in his pocket. Lightning didn't strike. The shooter got only one try.

The highest per-inning straight pool average seen so far at DCC was something like 62 by Immonen in 2007. I doubt that anyone can maintain that kind of average for a year. I think a reasonable working average is closer to 45, and maybe 20 players could achieve that over the long haul. It is not hard to figure how many tries it will take to reach 527 with an average of 45 balls per inning. It turns out to be a 1 in 140000 shot. About 6 million balls will be pocketed during the unsuccessful attempts. At 20 seconds per shot, that's two million minutes spent, or 34,000 hours of play.

If you assume that the average level of 14.1 play by the competitors will raise itself up to 60 BPI, then 527 becomes a 1 in 7000 shot, and you only need two thousand hours of play. Maybe that will happen, but I don't think so.

And you will need to worry about playing conditions. If you get one skid in 200 shots, most of the potential 500-ball runs will be ruined.

For more on high-run statistics, see http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-06.pdf

 

[bsmutz]

Exactly. A new world record. My feeling on the matter is that a specific time should be allotted (like a year or two, maybe) and whoever makes the highest run over 526 during that time gets the cheese.

 

[iba7467]

Exactly. A new world record. My feeling on the matter is that a specific time should be allotted (like a year or two, maybe) and whoever makes the highest run over 526 during that time gets the cheese.

I'd say something like, half the pot for first to break it. Then, half the pot to the overall winner after specified period of time (could be the same person, might not).

 

[huckster]

I am pretty sure the actual table is still around. Somebody said they had seen it a few years back...

I don't think an insurance company will bite on the million dollar prize. Sponsors, entry fees, pay per view, etc. will have to pay for this.

Lloyds of London has insured football players knees, actress's legs, Jim Palmer's elbow etc. With enough research and high premiums they will insure anything if they deem it profitable. Most are assuming this record will be broken. I just want to add a great incentive and see where it goes. I plan to get the ball rolling after the Holiday weekend. Anyone whom has experiance with writing a policy like I am seeking please contact me. I'm not looking for notoriety profitability or anything like that. I'm a fan and I think some of the pool greats deserve a chance at a life changing prize. Trust me if I could earn the amount of money that I have earned playing pool I would. It is not an easy life with no retirement options save any investments that occured. Guys like Johnny, Earl, John S, deserve a pot of gold for there dilligence.