Brunswick vs Diamond

[Kid Dynomite]

floor is not always level

Some valid observations. Although, on mine at least, the slate leveling system is unneeded. I never had to use it. The steel frame must be perfect. I dropped the slates on and presto, it was money. No shimming of anything to get slates to line up. It was dead nuts. It was a breath of fresh air compared to my GC IV.

My installation location is in my basement. Due to its location the floor is graded to allow water to flow towards the sump pump. So, my floor is intentionally not perfectly level. Plus, so many older homes move and have settlement cracks that form and floors that sink from the weight of the table. So, based on the tables location you really must consider the weight of the table affecting the subfloor and the need to level the table in the future. I understand your point. I just wanted to say the ability to level the table easily is necessary for the following reasons.

Sincerely,

Kid
Dynomite

 

[Kid Dynomite]

k66 vs k55 profile

I think both tables play great. I have also played on both that played goofy. Brunswick play soft for the most part. Diamonds play more alive. I think Diamonds play almost too alive after a month but the rails play true.

I agree with your comments and observations. The big difference for me is the difference in the rubber cushions used for the tables. GC's and Diamonds use different profile cushions. One uses k55 cushions and the other uses k66 profile. The angle of the cushions is different and so is the contact point on the ball as a result.

I really wish they would start to standardize the playing conditions from tournament to tournament. I really do not understand why the need for 2 different profiles for the cushions was needed?????

The above mentioned reason is why to me!!! the two tables bank very different from one another and you really need to consider what you play on most and your equipment choice is so important for either gambling or tournament play.

kid
dynomite

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Other tables

You mentioned only the top two table brands but to be fair you really have a couple of other tables to look at as well. Another top table is the brunswick metro used in the world pool championships in Manila and they play great. I heard no complaints while I was there last year.

Also, on a side note Grady Matthews had global tables set up in Reno Nevada for his one pocket tournament and every top player raved about the tables. Those tables used 1 1/2 inch slate and were as solid as they come. The extra weight and 1/2 inch of slate makes a big difference and when you bump the table or lean on it you get NO movement. Plus, it used the k55 profile and banked like a brunswick used in most pool rooms across america and the east coast where you are located!!!!

It is the only table company that I have seen with 1 1/2 inch slate on their commercial table. I am not sure if that was an upgrade option or standard??? Either way a great table that should be looked at. Just my opinion. The other manufacturers may offer 1 1/2 inch slate I don't know????


The Gabrials are a good table but I don't like the metal frame. Anyone that has played on an Anniversary and a Centennial will tell you they like the wood rails better then the metal ones. The metal does something in terms of vibration. Wood gives and metal doesn't. It is just my opinion regarding metal pool tables. Kim Steel tables are a prime example. Salsibury, Maryland had them and NO ONE liked them because of the metal factor. To me it is like comparing a wood pool cue with a graphite cuetec.

Sincerely
kid
dynomite

 

[realkingcobra]

I agree with your comments and observations. The big difference for me is the difference in the rubber cushions used for the tables. GC's and Diamonds use different profile cushions. One uses k55 cushions and the other uses k66 profile. The angle of the cushions is different and so is the contact point on the ball as a result.

Wrong statement, they both use K55 cushions

Glen

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Glen,

Thanks for the the info. I always thought they banked differently??? It could be different manufacturer of rubber or something. I always thought it was the profile but it must be the material or construction technique because i believe you when you say they are the same profile. Please comment on the topic if you know of any differences???

The only other difference that comes to mind is the wider rails and diamond placements making my aiming/banking perception off just slightly when comparing brands. not that one is right or wrong placement!!

Sincerely,
Kid
Dynomite

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen,

Thanks for the the info. I always thought they banked differently??? It could be different manufacturer of rubber or something. I always thought it was the profile but it must be the material or construction technique because i believe you when you say they are the same profile. Please comment on the topic if you know of any differences???

The only other difference that comes to mind is the wider rails and diamond placements making my aiming/banking perception off just slightly when comparing brands. not that one is right or wrong placement!!

Sincerely,
Kid
Dynomite

Just this last weekend, I recovered/leveled an Olhausen Pro 9ft table. It was set up by the Billiards factory here in Vegas. Upon first inspection of the tables, things noticed first were:

1) The slates were apart on both seams.
2) The rails were not lined up with the pockets.
3) The cloth was loose.
4) When banking the cue ball length of the table, only 4 times the length of the table could be achieved.
5) Shooting the cue ball around the world, I could only get 7 banks.
6) The corner pocket facings were rounded in the corner pockets.

Taking the table apart:
1) All the rail bolts were a little tighter than finger tight.

I replaced the 1/8" factory pocket facings with 3/16"neoprene facings.
Recovered the cushions after inspection, with Simonis 860 Tour Blue.
Re-leveled the slates, and re-seamed the slates with super glue, finishing with bondo.
I then recovered the bed with the same cloth.
Replaced the rails, torqued the rail bolts to 10ft lbs.

Upon finishing, I then tested the speed of the table again. The banks of the table length wise was now 5 1/2" times the length of the table long wise. The pockets were now accepting well hit balls, instead of rejecting them. And now the rails were lined up with the pockets.

Shooting the cue ball around the world, I could now get 9 banks.

And the sound effects of the rails changed quit a bit from the before work, to the after work, much better sounding after I was done.

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

My point being, all I did was recover the table and it played much differently than before, so I think when you start looking at some of the reasons why some tables play differently, you also have to take a look at the billiards technician as well

Glen

PS, the cloth I took off was Simonis 860

 

[CamposCues]

My installation location is in my basement. Due to its location the floor is graded to allow water to flow towards the sump pump. So, my floor is intentionally not perfectly level. Plus, so many older homes move and have settlement cracks that form and floors that sink from the weight of the table. So, based on the tables location you really must consider the weight of the table affecting the subfloor and the need to level the table in the future. I understand your point. I just wanted to say the ability to level the table easily is necessary for the following reasons.

Sincerely,

Kid
Dynomite

My location is on an uneven basement floor also. It is on thick carpet to boot. The ease of installation I was talking about was just that once I leveled my frame, I put the slates on and they matched up perfect with no shimming anywhere. The frame was just machined so well that it made it a snap. I had to tweak the leg levelers once it was all together but I never had to shim or use the slate leveling bolts. The frame is just that rigid and flat. Almost all the other tables I have put together, my GC IV included, needed some shimming of slates and finagling to get it right.

As far as the vibration you were talking about with metal framed tables, I have not noticed it. I don't know of any reason any table would really vibrate if it is put together tight. It is a very heavy table and solid as a rock. I never looked up the specs but I carried it and my GC and I'd have to guess the Gabriels weighed at least 300 lbs more and that should make for less vibration if anything.

And wood giving, the last thing I want my frame to do is give. I think that's what causes the need for shimming of slates. I'm NOT a table mechanic but these just my observations from the tables I've messed with over the years. I know for sure my Gabriels was easier to assemble and plays better than my GC hands down. I have not owned a Diamond but I know they are awesome tables and would love to own a proam some time down the road.

 

[smashmouth]

well since we're now discussing other brands, Connelly Ultimate gets my nod also

 

[CamposCues]

Tables

well since we're now discussing other brands, Connelly Ultimate gets my nod also

Ahh, what the heck then. I saw a couple Pinnacle tables a while back. I heard they went out of business but the two commercial tables they had were very nice and seemed well built. RKC, have you ever worked on a Pinnacle? They any good?

 

[nthamix]

Brunswick vs. Diamond...lol




B.

 

[milwaukeepeach]

Diamond......No question.....They are wonderful tables with wonderful craftsmanship. I recommend the Dymond (sp?) wood!

 

[little bubba]

Hi everyone i am sure this is probably a matter of personal preference in feel, but as an average player apa level 7 and am going to be starting to play in some joss and predator events in NY, what would be the better home table, a brunswick gold crown or a diamond professional or PRO AM table. I have heard mixed reports on both but after watching a lot of the accu stats dvds i have noticed the majority is played on diamonds. Any help would be huge.

Ghost, from my experience with setting up GCs and Diamonds (and I am no expert table mechanic). The GCs require a lot of work with the 3 piece slate system. Diamonds that are played in tourmanents are 1 piece and very easy to set up. At Grady's tournament on the Gulfcoast in 04 I helped Greg and his son set up all the Diamonds, and they were very easy and quick, that's why they are used in tournaments because the set-up time is minimal compared to a GC. I own a GC and this is not my first one, and love the way plays, but the Diamond is worth a look at because of the ease of set-up, rails that are nearly indestructible, and the cost of the table is quite a bit cheaper than a new GC. Go play on both and compare, they do play different, your personal preference should be a big part of the decision. Just my thoughts. little bubba

 

[Renos]

I have put together both and the Gold Crown is much easier if you know what your doing. In the long run the Gold Crown will hold much better resale value and will still be standing like a tank 30 years from now. The Diamond will look like crap after 5 years. The rails on the Diamond will look horrible in 2 to 3 years and the whole table will be ready to flush in about 5 in a commercial setting. Go to a poolhall and see for yourself. Come on, this is a no brainer. The Diamond people are trying to reinvent the wheel and are not doing a very good job. Sorry Diamond fans. Facts are facts.

 

[realkingcobra]

I have put together both and the Gold Crown is much easier if you know what your doing. In the long run the Gold Crown will hold much better resale value and will still be standing like a tank 30 years from now. The Diamond will look like crap after 5 years. The rails on the Diamond will look horrible in 2 to 3 years and the whole table will be ready to flush in about 5 in a commercial setting. Go to a poolhall and see for yourself. Come on, this is a no brainer. The Diamond people are trying to reinvent the wheel and are not doing a very good job. Sorry Diamond fans. Facts are facts.

Are you comparing the GC to the Diamond Professional with a wood finish, or a Diamond ProAm? Because the Diamond Professional with a wood finish is more of a home table. If you want to compare the GC to the ProAm...Brunswick has no shot at looks or resale 20 years down the road. So be a little more specific when you compare tables please, you may be confusing yourself

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Ahh, what the heck then. I saw a couple Pinnacle tables a while back. I heard they went out of business but the two commercial tables they had were very nice and seemed well built. RKC, have you ever worked on a Pinnacle? They any good?

No, I never have

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

The Diamond people are trying to reinvent the wheel and are not doing a very good job. Sorry Diamond fans. Facts are facts.

I couldn't resist quoting one of my more favorite sayings. "It's better to be thought dumb and stupid, that it is to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"

Glen

 

[CamposCues]

Pinnacle

No, I never have

Glen

I think they went under anyhow. I was just curious if you had ever run across them. Here is a crappy little pic of one I ran across. It had a frame like a Gabriels. The pockets were flush and leather like a Diamond. The rails were some type of dent and burn proof wood like Diamond's also. They have a more robust model at Big Dogs in Desmoines or at least they did a year or two ago. That's the only two I ever saw.

 

[Renos]

Cobra you like to hear yourself talk apparently with three straight replies. How do you know the Diamond's will be worth anything 20 years from now. Have they been around 20 years? Take a look at 35 year old Gold Crowns and they are still great playing tables. Gold crowns II and III have great resale value. You do need a decent mechanic to set them up but after that they are cadillac-ing for decades. Can you really say that about a Diamond? I don't think so. The entire Diamond line of tables do look good but as far as holding up for several years or decades like Gold Crowns is riDONKulous to think. My short favorite word. LOL

 

[realkingcobra]

Cobra you like to hear yourself talk apparently with three straight replies. How do you know the Diamond's will be worth anything 20 years from now. Have they been around 20 years? Take a look at 35 year old Gold Crowns and they are still great playing tables. Gold crowns II and III have great resale value. You do need a decent mechanic to set them up but after that they are cadillac-ing for decades. Can you really say that about a Diamond? I don't think so. The entire Diamond line of tables do look good but as far as holding up for several years or decades like Gold Crowns is riDONKulous to think. My short favorite word. LOL

Go back and take a look at the laminate on them GC's and tell me what it looks like. I can tell you for a fact, that Dymondwood 20 years from now, if buffed out with a buffer will look every bit as good as it did the day it was bought new. You CAN'T say that about a GC, unless it was in someone's home the entire time. Second, resale value?????? Try finding a Diamond ProAm on ebay for sale...LOL People can't wait to get their hands on one, ebay is loaded with GC's for sale, and when compared to the price of a GC new, the used price they can be picked up for is next to nothing. I can tell you right now, that a Diamond ProAm bought used today for $4,000.00...20 years from now is going to be worth most all of that...IF the owner was even willing to part with it. Does Brunswick buy back their OWN tables if a room goes broke??? Diamond does...and why would Diamond do that? Because they can resell the tables again for the same $4000.00 used table price...over and over again, until the table stops coming back, because it ends up somewhere and stays there. Why do people sell their GC's to replace them with Diamonds, because that happens all the time? Hmmm....I think you need to do a little more background checking before you make the "Fact" statements that you're making...because they don't hold water I'm not talking about Diamonds built 10,15 or even 20+ years ago, and yes...Diamond has been building tables for over 20+ years, and if you did a little more homework...you'd have known that. And if you want to compare commercial tables, then be sure you compare the Diamond ProAm to the GC's, because that really is Diamonds "Commercial" Rolls Royce of pool tables, built to take the abuse of pool rooms, built to last. Being in this business for as long as I have been, if there was a reason that a Diamond ProAm would ever have to be replaced in the future, I'd have seen that reason long ago, but...there is not ONE reason that a Diamond ProAm would ever have to be replaced. Brunswick on the other hand, can't seem to come up with that one GC that don't need to be replaced...because it's PERFECT in every way! Diamond has, and its called the ProAm model of tables.

Get your facts straight, if you want compete in this conversation. Other wise, call your facts....in your OPINION
Facts about Diamond ProAms.

1) Leather pocket liners, instead of plastic...like Brunswick's.
2) Faster ball return than Brunswick ever dreamed of.
3) Bi-level pocket liners, and no metal pocket castings...like Brunswick's.
4) One piece 9ft slate, which means there's no seams to come apart like on Brunswicks...no matter WHO sets the table up.
5) Much higher re-sale value than a Brunswick GC.
6) Diamond adjustable wedge leveling system which allows a technician to continue leveling the slate AFTER the table is assembled...unlike Brunswick, which you CAN'T adjust the level of the slate a year later if need be...unless you take the cloth off and break the seams apart to re-level the slates!
7) The Diamond is the fasted 9ft in the world to set up. Can be set up and ready to play on...before you can even finish packing in the GC parts and pieces, let alone...assemble it!
8) Diamond offers pro cut pocket openings, wereas Brunswick does not.

Do I really need to go on??????????

Glen