Buddy Hall. Great one-pocket player?
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John Barton said:Buddy and one pocket. Well, perhaps Buddy couldn't find the his pocket with an "Indian Guide" but he does pretty well making it there using his cue as a machete.
Perhaps the one pocket specialists have a slight edge over Buddy in knowledge of the moves they don't have an edge in the execution dpeartment. So if Buddy learns the moves which wouldn't take too long against top players then where will they be if they can't outmove him and can't outshoot him?
I heard a story once that Buddy won $30,000 in Tampa playing a jeweler. The way I heard it was that Buddy's stakehorse set up the game and Buddy arrived at the poolroom without any knowledge of what the game was. The backer had arranged for Buddy to give up 15:8 for 10 dimes a game. Buddy told the backer he wasn't going to give up that spot. So the backer grabs the cue and goes to the table. Buddy asks him what he's doing and the backer says, "the money's posted, somebody has to play." So Buddy plays. And runs 15 and out three times.
A year or so after this happened I played Buddy some friendly one pocket. I asked him if the story was true. He said. "naw, it didn't happen like that, I ran a 15, a 16, and a 17"Gotta love it.
By the way, when Buddy and I matched up he asked me what spot I wanted and I offered to play even. He said, "we don't have to do that, it's not fair." So I said well, "Cliff gives me 10:4" and Buddy said "we certainly don't have to do that". He gave me 10:7 and it wasn't even close. Although, I did put him in some traps that would have given fits to a lot of players he just smooth stroked his way out of them.
Buddy has a stroke ad touch that are almost indescribable. I'll try. When he hits the balls it seems as if the cue stick glides through the cueball. He always seems as if he is barely hitting the cueball and the cueball seems to float rather than roll in response.
I would gladly go broke betting on Buddy Hall in 9 Ball, 10 ball, rotation or one pocket. I think no one on the planet likes playing a fit Buddy Hall.
I've watched and listened to *a lot* of Accu-Stats 1pocket commentary from a wide variety of players and what I've gotten from Buddy's commentary is that he knows 1pocket quite well -- it's just that because of his exceptional accuracy and touch that his 1pocket "concept" is different from that of other players because he brings a different set of skills to the table.
It might not be, say, a Chicago style concept of 1pocket, but then those guys in Chicago don't have Buddy's skills. By rights his concept should be different because he can do so much more.
Lou Figueroa
Freddie,freddy the beard said:
Thanks for posting the reply, which perfectly clears up the confusion over your views on their 1 pocket speed. Several points...
1. The total posts we've posted is in the little box on the left side of the forum that contains our posting name. The # of posts each person has posted is below our names. I didn't know that until my college aged kids showed me how to work this. They rubbed it in that every 2nd grader knows computers better than me.
2. I can now officially say that I agree with 528 of your 529 posts.
3. You have the God given gift for being funny. Your explaination was akin to hearing Rembrandt talk about how others see finger painting...Take that to mean that many here feel you are true genius!
freddy the beard said:
Freddie,
Could you give your opinion on Shannon Daulton's 1 pocket game?
Would you rank him above or below Varner?
Thanks!
Terry
JAM said:LOL. What a visual!
Well, I guess it was really bad, if it's the match I'm thinking of, JAM
I heard the humidity outside is why the tables play wet. When you go to draw a ball, for instance, it doesn't draw. As well, the ball won't follow either. Everything hops, kind of like those storming toads!
How the rails behave totally changes and banking and position play become especially problematic. Once again, if it's the match I'm thinking of, everyone in the booth starts getting pretty disgusted because neither player could get out and the match dragged on and on.
JAM
Lou Figueroa
I heard that when buddy hall was at his peak, he played a tremendous bar table session with matlock. I think they were playing 10 ahead for 10,000. the story i heard was that buddy had david 8 down shooting a easy combination and missed. Supposendly david took that game and that set without buddy winning another game. I heard david was open to the world in ponca city, OK in the earlier and mid 80's on the bar table. Sidenote: buddy offered to play any of the filipino's even 9 ball when he was younger. another tidbit: buddy used to bet that within 4 hours of play he could eventually string 7-8 continous racks without cue ball hand.
I'd love to hear what Freddie thinks about both Shannon and Cliff Joyner.
Maybe he could give us his top three guys (who still play) who come closest to playing the game the way he thinks it should be played...whether they lose to freaky ball pocketers like Deuel, Rafael Martinez,etc... or not.
Speaking of Accu-Stat tapes, Freddie does commentary on an old Rempe versus Jimmy Fusco one pocket match. This might be the best tape to watch if you want to see an "Old Schooler" show how to torture someone who has gaps in their one pocket game. The funny thing this, Rempe actually won a Johnson City or other huge one pocket tourney against a bunch of legends.
He admitted later that he had almost no clue what he was doing, but when he took the wrong shot he'd make it (almost every time) and it was enough to win. Fusco had also lost to Rempe in a previous match by giving him too much air. He puts the clamps down on the tape Freddie commentates on and its so brutal you almost feel sorry for Rempe.
If they have a class on one pocket anywhere, Fusco could definately teach "Squeezing 101"
Maybe he could give us his top three guys (who still play) who come closest to playing the game the way he thinks it should be played...whether they lose to freaky ball pocketers like Deuel, Rafael Martinez,etc... or not.
Speaking of Accu-Stat tapes, Freddie does commentary on an old Rempe versus Jimmy Fusco one pocket match. This might be the best tape to watch if you want to see an "Old Schooler" show how to torture someone who has gaps in their one pocket game. The funny thing this, Rempe actually won a Johnson City or other huge one pocket tourney against a bunch of legends.
He admitted later that he had almost no clue what he was doing, but when he took the wrong shot he'd make it (almost every time) and it was enough to win. Fusco had also lost to Rempe in a previous match by giving him too much air. He puts the clamps down on the tape Freddie commentates on and its so brutal you almost feel sorry for Rempe.
If they have a class on one pocket anywhere, Fusco could definately teach "Squeezing 101"
He asked for 9 to 7
Lou, I cant let you get away with the aforementioned, italicized statement denigrating the Chicago boys. Buddy hung out in my place, North Shore Billiards for at least a month. He played not one session of 1pkt. the whole time. He asked Artie for 9 to 7. And have you forgotten that Cannonball Chapman, Bugs Rucker, Artie and Youngblood Washington are Chicagoans? Bugs gave him 10 to 8 playing banks and won. Johnny Boy Skinner and Howard the Coward Meechem beat him playing banks. Matter of fact the only guy he beat playing banks in Chicago then was me. I claim a serious crack addiction at the time as my excuse.
the Beard
lfigueroa said:
Lou, I cant let you get away with the aforementioned, italicized statement denigrating the Chicago boys. Buddy hung out in my place, North Shore Billiards for at least a month. He played not one session of 1pkt. the whole time. He asked Artie for 9 to 7. And have you forgotten that Cannonball Chapman, Bugs Rucker, Artie and Youngblood Washington are Chicagoans? Bugs gave him 10 to 8 playing banks and won. Johnny Boy Skinner and Howard the Coward Meechem beat him playing banks. Matter of fact the only guy he beat playing banks in Chicago then was me. I claim a serious crack addiction at the time as my excuse.
the Beard
16 to 7
I play out of Side Pockets in Paducah, Kentucky. Buddy is living back in Metropolis, Illinois and calls Side Pockets his home room along with Al Bonife. I am pretty decent one hole player and he gives me 16 to 7 and beats me like a red headed step child. He has ran 15 on me twice and 14 another time. We played pretty consistently (2 or 3 days a week for several months.) Buddy can really play that one hole...i have no shot at the game at 16 to 7. I dont really mind taking the beatings. We are pretty good friends and we play low dollar pool. I have learned more by playing with him that I have ever learned from anyone else. Best "lessons" in the world!
I play out of Side Pockets in Paducah, Kentucky. Buddy is living back in Metropolis, Illinois and calls Side Pockets his home room along with Al Bonife. I am pretty decent one hole player and he gives me 16 to 7 and beats me like a red headed step child. He has ran 15 on me twice and 14 another time. We played pretty consistently (2 or 3 days a week for several months.) Buddy can really play that one hole...i have no shot at the game at 16 to 7. I dont really mind taking the beatings. We are pretty good friends and we play low dollar pool. I have learned more by playing with him that I have ever learned from anyone else. Best "lessons" in the world!
freddy the beard said:
About when was he at your place?
I certainly don't have the first hand info that you do, Freddy. But as I said, from his Accu-Stats commentary I think it's clear Buddy does know 1pocket. And no disrespect, while great, I don't think anyone would rate the Windy City guys you mentioned in the same league as Buddy when it comes to accuracy and touch. Also, my impression is that Buddy came to 1pocket later on in his career and even at the Roanoke events, back in the early 90's, he was just then starting to get the hang of it.
Lou Figueroa
When Buddy Hall is in stroke, he's easily in the top ten best one-hole players in the world, IMO. I've watched a few of his accustats 1-hole tapes, and the commentators agreed with his shot selection about 95% of the time one each tape.
Concept
I am going to try and answer all the questions posed by everybody in this one post.
Shannon and Varner? Even though Shannon has an important piece of the "concept" that Nicky doesnt have, Nick is a tremendous favorite. Nicky's patience and shot discipline (that which Shannon is lacking) would win the day.
As far as Efren, keep in mind he learned the game from me, and I made sure I taught him many bad things purposely, Marshall Squirrel Carpenter summed it up all too well after watching Efren dismember Luat. Quote Squirrel, "He never takes the right shot and cant nobody come close to beating him."
Re Cliff Joyner: When playing weak players and giving up monster spots Cliff employs the "concept" perfectly. It's only when playing the top, top, guys his speed (Efren, Duel, Frost etc.) does he deviate and abandon the pure form of the concept, mistakenly thinking it doesnt apply when playing against monsters. Does anybody really believe, in a perfect world, Efren can spot him 2 and 3 balls and win? Yet Efren has been pounding him for years.
Cliff comes the closest to what I am looking for.
If you watched the Fusco/Rempe match in Philly you would see how much I love Jimmy Fusco's game. I am going to campaign hard for him this year to get into the OnePocket Hall of Fame.
The Beard
bud green said:
I am going to try and answer all the questions posed by everybody in this one post.
Shannon and Varner? Even though Shannon has an important piece of the "concept" that Nicky doesnt have, Nick is a tremendous favorite. Nicky's patience and shot discipline (that which Shannon is lacking) would win the day.
As far as Efren, keep in mind he learned the game from me, and I made sure I taught him many bad things purposely, Marshall Squirrel Carpenter summed it up all too well after watching Efren dismember Luat. Quote Squirrel, "He never takes the right shot and cant nobody come close to beating him."
Re Cliff Joyner: When playing weak players and giving up monster spots Cliff employs the "concept" perfectly. It's only when playing the top, top, guys his speed (Efren, Duel, Frost etc.) does he deviate and abandon the pure form of the concept, mistakenly thinking it doesnt apply when playing against monsters. Does anybody really believe, in a perfect world, Efren can spot him 2 and 3 balls and win? Yet Efren has been pounding him for years.
Cliff comes the closest to what I am looking for.
If you watched the Fusco/Rempe match in Philly you would see how much I love Jimmy Fusco's game. I am going to campaign hard for him this year to get into the OnePocket Hall of Fame.
The Beard
Freddy--Does anyone in Chicago TODAY want to play Buddy some one pocket? Please let me know.
Bugs Rucker was one of the greatest one pocket players of all time and one of the greatest bankers. I don't think that anyone would say that about Buddy. He is one of the greatest 9 ball players of all time. Did Bugs ever want to play him some of that game? But Buddy can hold his own playing one pocket. He might not have been a top 10 player at the game but I don't think top 30-40 is a stretch and when he was younger, his consistency would wear down many a top player ranked above him.
About consistency & patience as you described Nick. Nick told me once that he won't shoot at his hole until he is confident he can run out. No hit and hope.
Bugs Rucker was one of the greatest one pocket players of all time and one of the greatest bankers. I don't think that anyone would say that about Buddy. He is one of the greatest 9 ball players of all time. Did Bugs ever want to play him some of that game? But Buddy can hold his own playing one pocket. He might not have been a top 10 player at the game but I don't think top 30-40 is a stretch and when he was younger, his consistency would wear down many a top player ranked above him.
About consistency & patience as you described Nick. Nick told me once that he won't shoot at his hole until he is confident he can run out. No hit and hope.
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A qualifier
Ok, Ill put a qualifier on it. I am going to forfeit the last 10 years, opinion wise, since I have not been really mainstream for that period. The times I mentioned at North Shore Billiards occurred in the 80's (when Buddy was the best 9 baller on earth). Also, I never said anything about accuracy or touch, that has little to do with 1pkt knowledge. One last thing, I have spent time in the accu-stats booth with Cecil Buddy Hall. And another last thing, Cecil and I are blood-brothers and have been close friends for years. I can talk as bad as I want about his 1pkt game and believe me, he wont get the slightest bit mad at me. He knows I talk bad about everybody. If you watch the Fusco/Rempe match you will see me rip Rempe unmercifully and we are still pals. While he wont pick up my lunch check (they are still looking for someone he has done it for), he will allow me to split it.
the Beard
the Beard
lfigueroa said:
Ok, Ill put a qualifier on it. I am going to forfeit the last 10 years, opinion wise, since I have not been really mainstream for that period. The times I mentioned at North Shore Billiards occurred in the 80's (when Buddy was the best 9 baller on earth). Also, I never said anything about accuracy or touch, that has little to do with 1pkt knowledge. One last thing, I have spent time in the accu-stats booth with Cecil Buddy Hall. And another last thing, Cecil and I are blood-brothers and have been close friends for years. I can talk as bad as I want about his 1pkt game and believe me, he wont get the slightest bit mad at me. He knows I talk bad about everybody. If you watch the Fusco/Rempe match you will see me rip Rempe unmercifully and we are still pals. While he wont pick up my lunch check (they are still looking for someone he has done it for), he will allow me to split it.
the Beard
the Beard
Cecil Tugwell
Freddy, did you ever get a chance to see Cecil Tugwell play when he was in his prime? This is the guy who got his right hand crushed supposedly because he dumped his backers for like $100 (thats the story I heard). He had to switch to playing pool left handed, and still played great, but he never reached the form he had with his right hand after he was hurt. Was he an upper-echelon player? I heard he was a monster at the game.
Freddy, did you ever get a chance to see Cecil Tugwell play when he was in his prime? This is the guy who got his right hand crushed supposedly because he dumped his backers for like $100 (thats the story I heard). He had to switch to playing pool left handed, and still played great, but he never reached the form he had with his right hand after he was hurt. Was he an upper-echelon player? I heard he was a monster at the game.
"Serps"
We used to call him "Serps", which was short for Cecil The Serpent. In the early 70s he and I used to play a couple times a week at the Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood. He was right-handed then. He was a real good player with a real good future before his accident. He was a psycho to play with, though. He came to Chicago with Harold Denson steering him and played Artie in Bensingers. Just before the match started, Harold told a sweator,"This wont take long." The sweator replied,"You're sure right about that." and Artie proceeded to punish Cecil for about 36 hundred. When they were up at the counter paying the time, Artie told Cecil, "Good game" and offered to shake his hand. Instead, Cecil sucker-punched Artie and ran out the door. Cecil later called and apologized and they became friends, but he never played Artie again. I could never understand why he would never play right-handed again after he healed. There was no reason, other than psychological for him not to use his right hand. Like I said, he did have some mental peculiarities. But even playing left-handed, he won a 1pkt tourn in CA, beating Efren in the finals!
the Beard
cuetechasaurus said:
We used to call him "Serps", which was short for Cecil The Serpent. In the early 70s he and I used to play a couple times a week at the Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood. He was right-handed then. He was a real good player with a real good future before his accident. He was a psycho to play with, though. He came to Chicago with Harold Denson steering him and played Artie in Bensingers. Just before the match started, Harold told a sweator,"This wont take long." The sweator replied,"You're sure right about that." and Artie proceeded to punish Cecil for about 36 hundred. When they were up at the counter paying the time, Artie told Cecil, "Good game" and offered to shake his hand. Instead, Cecil sucker-punched Artie and ran out the door. Cecil later called and apologized and they became friends, but he never played Artie again. I could never understand why he would never play right-handed again after he healed. There was no reason, other than psychological for him not to use his right hand. Like I said, he did have some mental peculiarities. But even playing left-handed, he won a 1pkt tourn in CA, beating Efren in the finals!
the Beard
I don`t understand the expectations and analysis of many on buddy hall.How much proof one wants before they consider to place him in top 10?
Even when Grady was in his prime Buddy beat him out of some... in Johnston city more than 25 years ago.Besides Batton Rouge tournament ( ?1999) Buddy won the big one pocket tournament only few years ago organized by Grady in one of the casinos in Gulfport, MS.That is good enough proof for me to place him high on the list.
Even when Grady was in his prime Buddy beat him out of some... in Johnston city more than 25 years ago.Besides Batton Rouge tournament ( ?1999) Buddy won the big one pocket tournament only few years ago organized by Grady in one of the casinos in Gulfport, MS.That is good enough proof for me to place him high on the list.