Butt and Shaft don't match up?

blackhawk357m

blackhawk357m

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I've been struggling with this for awhile now. For whatever reason the butt and the shafts don't match up just right. (see pic below, it's not this drastic, but this was the best way to show what I mean) I've drilled, bored, with a collet, without a collet...it doesn't matter.

I get the joint pin to spin with a .001" indication. I'm guessing its something I'm doing or not doing with the shaft? I've tried just regular 3/8-10 pins and tapped the shaft, I've tried the uni-lock inserts boring the shaft. And it keeps doing this.

Then I have to screw them together and sand it to where it mates up flush with each other. Is this normal or am I really screwing up somewhere?

Thanks,
Nathan

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It sounds like you have plugged, rebored, and reset the pin in your butt and that you have plugged, rebored, and retapped your shaft.

Is that correct?

If so, it looks to me like the centerline of your headstock and the centerline of your tailstock are not aligned.

First, put something "pointy" in your headstock, like a dead center, indicate it until you get as close to 0.000" runout as possible.

Next, mount another dead center, live center, or something else pointy in your tailstock and then bring your tailstock up close to your headstock, so that the two points now nearly touch.

I will guess that they don't meet precisely point-to-point and you will need to offset your tailstock to mate them up. Be sure to check from the side and from the top.

Let us know what you find.

Gary
 
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You could probably go that route but it might look like a dogs breakfast after, but certainly more sanding work than necessary.
If you were making a cue for someone, your shaft or shafts might end up working ok but the first time he tries to screw another shaft onto it, it wouldn't work out that well.

It sounded like he was doing everything correct by indicating the butt and shaft so it will be interesting to find out what is causing the end result.

My Deluxe indicated pretty decent right off the bat and so very close messing about with cigarette papers. Now that I have Joeys jig, there are no problems. Even doing it with cigarette papers, I have never came close to having a problem like this.

I will definitely be reading this thread.

Tail stock not lining up 100% true with the center of the chuck or a combination of that and another thing or two? Cause that would certainly do it if you're drilling a hole in the butt a little off center and then the same with the shaft. A little out in either will compound the problem and make it look even worse when they mate up. Maybe not, if both holes are out the same, maybe they will mate up, its just that they will both be off center.

See what happened here, now I'm talking to myself. Nappy time for Terry.

I use the tail stock daily/ weekly for shaft cleaning so that is pretty much the first thing I check is the tail stock when I start to do final drilling and boring. I have never had the tail stock move on me but I double check to be sure.

Anyway, after you do get this problem worked out Pal, I would get a hold of Joey and inquire about one of his indicating jigs. You won't regret it. Then you can use the ciggy papers for other more important things.
 
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blackhawk357m said:
So I've been struggling with this for awhile now. For whatever reason the butt and the shafts don't match up just right. (see pic below, it's not this drastic, but this was the best way to show what I mean) I've drilled, bored, with a collet, without a collet...it doesn't matter.

I get the joint pin to spin with a .001" indication. I'm guessing its something I'm doing or not doing with the shaft? I've tried just regular 3/8-10 pins and tapped the shaft, I've tried the uni-lock inserts boring the shaft. And it keeps doing this.

Then I have to screw them together and sand it to where it mates up flush with each other. Is this normal or am I really screwing up somewhere?

Thanks,
Nathan

picture.php
Click to expand...

You are losing concentricity. The pin or the thread in the shaft is not in the center.

I put the pin in just before I finish. I indicate the butt to get to run within .001 runout. Then I drill, tap and glue in the pin.

I put in the threads in the shaft at about.050 oversize. I chamfer the hole and use that chamfer as the center to finish cut the shaft.

I usually turn the shaft about .020 over size at the joint. Then I screw the cue together and chuck on the butt side of the joint. Indicate it to make it run true and turn the shaft to match the butt.


There are a lot of ways to do this.............. this is just one...

Kim
 
I agree with just about all of this, particularly the center-drilling of the shaft and working off that.
Center-drill and cut your threads in the same session. The threads are now centered to your chamfer.
Support that with the center in your tail-stock and cut the rings to size.
.840" is .840" and center is center. If you did the handle correctly, they should mate.
The only time I have to mount the cue in the chuck to mate the shaft is if it's a repair
on a cue that the pin wasn't centered correctly to begin with.
Pisses me off that I have to bastardize my work to accommodate a crap cue.

KJ
 
Does you tap have a nose or does it just have flukes. Sounds as if your tap is walking. I have had this problem as the tap will start and then spiral up and down in the hole like it was pushed off at the start. Can be up to .02 off center. I went to a tap with a .312 nose that goes into the .312 hole and helps keep the tap from walking. Cannot remember where I bought the tap as it was years ago that I purchased. I think I had it made. Also the the regular tap will do just fine most of the time, have yet to figure why it walks on some holes and not others.
 
Another thing that could be happening is that the resoultion of your DTI is .001 inches.
Lets assume that it is .001 inches from zero, and the other part is the same, .001 inches out.
There is a possibility that they become booked, so it will be the 2 errors combined, giving a .002 run out. If they cancelled each other out then it could be zero.
I use finger style indicators for setting the runout. Mine are .01mm resolution, So getting a .0005 inch resolution indicator will be very useful to you.I look for indicators with a low stylus pressure.That way it does not mark any of the parts being worked on.

Another factor is the way the shaft and handle are being held.
There is a possibility that the work piece is not neutral in the set up, so when it is removed it relaxes and the holes etc are not true.
I like to use a bearing steady rest and concentric collars that I make myself to suite the taper or shape of the part being supported and held. The end being worked on is in the steady rest , the other end is held in a collet in my case, or in your case a chuck.
Note, you can not hold properly a tapered component with a parallel bush. Make your own that suite the tapers of the parts you are making and run true in your setup.
When it is running, the shaft or handle should be running true, just like when it was made or held between centers.Like being said before, if the tailstock is not perfectly aligned with the steady rest and the chuck, it will not drill true or tap true.If it is not, do the search on aligning your lathe and getting set up true on the lathe bed etc.
Check through all the other suggestions as well.
Neil
 
Also the the regular tap will do just fine most of the time, have yet to figure why it walks on some holes and not others.[/QUOTE]

second that
can be very frustrating :frown:
the .308 piloted tap i bought a few years ago from atlas has been well worth the $60
along with the .307 gauge pin i made

 
I have one of Chris's deluxes. I would run into this about 5-10 percent of the time, even when I tought I had everything tuned in pretty good. I just started drilling, boring, then tapping the butt and shaft in the steady rest. Maybe a lame way to do it but I haven't run into the problem since. Also, I always dry fit the pin making sure it runs dead nut, then I put the glue in and make sure again.
 
Is it a very small lip or pretty bad? There are a few people like Chris that make a sanding arbor that fixes the small lips.
 
Nate,

Don't feel bad, every Cuemaker in the world at some point has had the same problem with concentricity.

There are a lot of people here that have given you good advise and will continue to in the future. Just hang in there. When you figure out the problem it will make you better.

Machining operations in cue making can do funny things because of the wood fiber in a hole is not consistent 360. If you were doing metal it is a whole different animal IMO. When you find a procedure that produces repeatable results for you in this area, it will be a faded memory.

Rick
 
ok, so after doing lots of reading and searching...(THANK YOU ALL BTW!!!) I put my dial indicator on the cross slide of my deluxe, and a gage rod in the front chuck and checked it out. Zero'd the indictor...It's got a runout range of .004 (+.002 then -.002).

I also read on here about the chuck sticking on every 1/3 turn and have come to the realization that I did something really stupid somewhere in the past lol So I found a repair procedure on here from Mr. Hightower and will be attempting that in the next few hours and then rebore the jaws.

Thanks again so much everyone for all the input and support!

Nathan
 
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So I did the procedure tonight, and yup....at the end of the scroll plate was dinged a bit so I ground that down and now it doesn't stick at every 1/3 turn. :)

I think everything is going good, so I rebore the jaws. Using the big boring bar I have in my quick change, it vibrated pretty bad while cutting. Checked the runout, now it's at .006. So I made it worse by .002!

So I get the idea of using my micro boring bar instead and get all the nicks out of the jaws....get all 3 nice and smooth....indicated again.....now it's down to .003

I guess I need to use papers? Do you put them in between the jaw and gage rod at the high side, then check runout? Or should I bite the bullet and spend the $100 some odd dollars for this mysterious jig?

Thanks,
Nathan
 
Nathan, Are you measuring the run out at the same diameter as you are boring? And is that the diameter that you are working with when installing the joint? The nature of a scroll chuck is that it will seldom measure the same TIR at different diameter positions. If you want it to be true at .850 then bore it true at .850.
 
tsp&b said:
Nathan, Are you measuring the run out at the same diameter as you are boring? And is that the diameter that you are working with when installing the joint? The nature of a scroll chuck is that it will seldom measure the same TIR at different diameter positions. If you want it to be true at .850 then bore it true at .850.
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no, I did what Chris Hightower said to do in the procedure he wrote. After fixing the chuck so that it doesn't stick, to open the chuck all the way, then close it about a 1/12 of a turn, then bore the jaws. I used a ground 1/2" pin to check the runout.
 
So I decided to rebore the jaws yet again. This time I took a sharpie and colored in the contacts of the jaws to make sure the boring bar was getting all 3 jaws. Using the power feed to make the pass as smooth as possible, I bored .002" per pass. After numerous passes, all the sharpie was gone and did a final .001" pass. Stuck my 1/2" ground pin back in the chuck and zeroed.....total runout: .0015"

Don't know if I did this totally right, but it's a hell of a lot closer than I have been :)

Next up, I need to order some delrin and make a collet with my butt taper to an ID of .850"

Using the cig papers to adjust, do they go between the jaws and the collet...or between the collet and butt?
 
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Make the collet in that chuck and then mark the collet and the chuck so you put the collet in the same every time. Turn a piece of wood round to fit the collet and check the runout of the wood. Should be very close to zero runout as boring the collet to the chuck should make the collet zero. If you rotate the collet it will be out from zero up to .003 or twice what the bore is off. Always put the collet in the same way in reference to the jaws or exactly the position it was bored.

Or just go back and rebore the chuck but not at .001 per pass but do .0005 or less a pass and do it several times at this setting. The crossfeed that the toolholder fits on have several thousands of play and the tool will push off a bit because of this. This is fine for wood but you are boring metal and this is not a metal lathe. Go slow!!!
 
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Does the lathe have a compound ?
If not, your collets will have straight holes.
Not good pin install and shaft threading.
 
Brickcues said:
Make the collet in that chuck and then mark the collet and the chuck so you put the collet in the same every time. Turn a piece of wood round to fit the collet and check the runout of the wood. Should be very close to zero runout as boring the collet to the chuck should make the collet zero. If you rotate the collet it will be out from zero up to .003 or twice what the bore is off. Always put the collet in the same way in reference to the jaws or exactly the position it was bored.

Or just go back and rebore the chuck but not at .001 per pass but do .0005 or less a pass and do it several times at this setting. The crossfeed that the toolholder fits on have several thousands of play and the tool will push off a bit because of this. This is fine for wood but you are boring metal and this is not a metal lathe. Go slow!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip, will do that!
 
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