butt vs shaft
- Thread starter berlowmj
- Start date
I knew a guy that played with a Gina shaft on cheap sneaky pete butt.
I put it to the test
It depends on several things about the butt, some in the design, some in the construction. If the joint face isn't square and flat over most of it's surface the cue will not play nearly as well as a better cue. That is construction.
Design and quality of materials also comes into play. I constructed a sneaky out of one of the very cheap Budweiser cues. I changed the black plastic collar to phenolic on the butt, cored the fore end deeply enough with good maple to put in a quality pin and square everything up, and built a quality matching shaft for it. It played considerably better than it did before I started on it but it still played miles below the same shaft on a quality butt.
However, I bought a modestly priced sneaky pete style cue in the eighties for $40, new in a store where I could select from dozens of them. I selected the best maple shaft I could find to replace the shaft on my European style Meucci with the same threads in a hurry. Later I got curious and tried my quickie replacement shaft on the butt it came with. It played as well as the Meucci butt which was from the early eighties.
If you are happy with the play of the cue now obviously no changes are needed. If not or if you are just trying to insure the long life of the cue and shaft I'd have the joint face touched up by a good cue smith. If you find that the butt does play significantly less well than a high end butt after squaring the face my one try at making a very cheap butt play like a quality one indicates that the material or internal construction of the butt is probably at fault.
A very long winded way of saying the butt can make a huge difference. No way I can know if the one you have does or not.
Hu
It depends on several things about the butt, some in the design, some in the construction. If the joint face isn't square and flat over most of it's surface the cue will not play nearly as well as a better cue. That is construction.
Design and quality of materials also comes into play. I constructed a sneaky out of one of the very cheap Budweiser cues. I changed the black plastic collar to phenolic on the butt, cored the fore end deeply enough with good maple to put in a quality pin and square everything up, and built a quality matching shaft for it. It played considerably better than it did before I started on it but it still played miles below the same shaft on a quality butt.
However, I bought a modestly priced sneaky pete style cue in the eighties for $40, new in a store where I could select from dozens of them. I selected the best maple shaft I could find to replace the shaft on my European style Meucci with the same threads in a hurry. Later I got curious and tried my quickie replacement shaft on the butt it came with. It played as well as the Meucci butt which was from the early eighties.
If you are happy with the play of the cue now obviously no changes are needed. If not or if you are just trying to insure the long life of the cue and shaft I'd have the joint face touched up by a good cue smith. If you find that the butt does play significantly less well than a high end butt after squaring the face my one try at making a very cheap butt play like a quality one indicates that the material or internal construction of the butt is probably at fault.
A very long winded way of saying the butt can make a huge difference. No way I can know if the one you have does or not.
Hu
I took an Action sneaky pete and removed the pin and ftted a Madison Bob shaft to it with a 3/8 11 pin and the cue played great. The Action cost me about $25 and I had the extra shaft laying around. I sold the oridinal Action shaft for $25 I think, so I had virtually nothing in the cue. I think I still have the butt somewhere.
I thought I was golden in the bars
I thought I would be golden in the bars with that thing. I even had the lovely original vinyl case that said Budweiser on it and a genuine tear I had duct taped over. Seems folks are wise to three dollar cues with layered tips on them even in the bars. :grin: :grin: :grin: I drew a crowd with people wanting to look at it when I drug it out! :frown:
:frown:
Hu
I thought I would be golden in the bars with that thing. I even had the lovely original vinyl case that said Budweiser on it and a genuine tear I had duct taped over. Seems folks are wise to three dollar cues with layered tips on them even in the bars. :grin: :grin: :grin: I drew a crowd with people wanting to look at it when I drug it out! :frown:
:frown: Hu
If you feel comfortable with it while shooting, the only possible problem I can see, and I'm not suggesting there should be one, might be the efficiency of the cue. In other words, does it impart a typical amount of speed to the cueball or do you have to use a little extra power? If you let the cue drop straight down (tip first) onto a hard massive object, a concrete floor, say, and it bounces up to about half the original dropping height or more, then there's no problem in that department. This is mostly a function of tip efficiency and I doubt that the butt or the shaft/butt mating could adversely affect this significantly without you noticing it in some other way (e.g., vibrations/noises from loose parts).
If you want to put a number on it, divide the rebound height by the drop height and take the square root of that. For example, a ratio of 1/2 implies an efficiency "e" (technically, a coefficient of restitution) of 0.707 or 71%. You can then compare yours to representative values obtained by Bob Jewett and Dr. Dave Alciatore here (see the video HSVB-42 near the bottom):
http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/index.html
To get some idea of the cue's speed at impact, a drop height of 10" will generate 5 mph, while 40", 10 mph. This is roughly lag speed and twice lag speed, respectively.
Jim
Last edited:
I would just say be careful. I'm not a cue expert at all but I have found out that some of the butts on cheaper cues, especially those novelty cues, are made of pine (I know as I broke one recently). I was shocked when I looked at the broken butt of my novelty cue to see that it was made of what looks like yellow pine!
I like to put my shaft in any butt. haha. sorry, always joking.
I think the further you move away from the tip of the cue, the less important it is. So the tip is very important, the ferrule, the shaft, the joint and the fit of the joint, the coring, and the rubber bumper is the least important.
Putting a Predator shaft on my old Meucci made a big difference.
I think the further you move away from the tip of the cue, the less important it is. So the tip is very important, the ferrule, the shaft, the joint and the fit of the joint, the coring, and the rubber bumper is the least important.
Putting a Predator shaft on my old Meucci made a big difference.
I agree with Hu.
There is a difference with different shafts and butts. There are reasons for the way cues are put together and there is a particular way a cue maker does things and they resonate identity in each and every cue they make.
The entire cue makes a difference. Thomas Wayne pointed out that the business end of the cue is the most important, but Bill Schick countered that saying that if the entire cue is not built up to par, then the business end won't make a difference.
I agree with Bill Schick. Even the bumper, weight bolt, or lack of one makes an incredible difference. I play with a cue with no weight bolt and it has an incredibly smooth tone. I notice that cues that have a weight bolt in it don't have a prolonged tone. Essentially, the more stuff you have in the cue, that is just one more thing that wasn't meant to be there.
Another thing to look at is this. Let's say, you have a 314-2. You put it on three different butts, even from the same maker, and you will get three similar but different hits.
What the main point is if you have a shaft, the higher quality the materials and craftsmanship, the better the cue and hit will be.
There is a difference with different shafts and butts. There are reasons for the way cues are put together and there is a particular way a cue maker does things and they resonate identity in each and every cue they make.
The entire cue makes a difference. Thomas Wayne pointed out that the business end of the cue is the most important, but Bill Schick countered that saying that if the entire cue is not built up to par, then the business end won't make a difference.
I agree with Bill Schick. Even the bumper, weight bolt, or lack of one makes an incredible difference. I play with a cue with no weight bolt and it has an incredibly smooth tone. I notice that cues that have a weight bolt in it don't have a prolonged tone. Essentially, the more stuff you have in the cue, that is just one more thing that wasn't meant to be there.
Another thing to look at is this. Let's say, you have a 314-2. You put it on three different butts, even from the same maker, and you will get three similar but different hits.
What the main point is if you have a shaft, the higher quality the materials and craftsmanship, the better the cue and hit will be.
the resonation is the key
Because resonation is such a big part of feel even the bumper makes a difference as we have both discovered. I had an old cue I liked that was missing a bumper. Finally remembered to order the right bumper for it and didn't like it nearly as much with the bumper on it. I guess that it performed just as well either way but it gave me totally different feedback.
Hu
Because resonation is such a big part of feel even the bumper makes a difference as we have both discovered. I had an old cue I liked that was missing a bumper. Finally remembered to order the right bumper for it and didn't like it nearly as much with the bumper on it. I guess that it performed just as well either way but it gave me totally different feedback.
Hu
And what exactly is a "different hit", in your words?
If you ask me, if you put the same 314-2 on three different butts with the same weight, and all three joints fit tightly with the shaft, then for all intents and purposes it's the same cue all three times. I think this is true even if one butt was made by Southwest, one by Schon, and one by Walmart.
-Andrew
It has been said that around 75% of the hit is in the tip, 20% is in the shaft and 5% is in the butt.
So, the tip maters a lot more (~4X) than the shaft, and the shaft maters a lot more (~4X) than the butt.
So, the tip maters a lot more (~4X) than the shaft, and the shaft maters a lot more (~4X) than the butt.
I agree IF the balance point is the same, joint fits flush with the shaft, and diameter of the butt where you hold the cue is the same.
I play with a Schon and I played a guy in a tournament once who said he used to own my cue and he said he put a washer in the butt to increase the weight. I didn't know whether to believe him or not but one day out of curiosity I took the bumper off and sure enough, there was a washer. I took the washer out, moving the balance point forward, and it changed the way the cue played. It played a little better in my opinion. I was considering trading the cue until I obtained an old Schon shaft for it with a wizard tip. The fit of this shaft to the butt is a little more snug than any other shaft I've had for the cue. Whether it's that or the tip I can't say but the cue plays significantly better now. It's only a Schon SL-5 but I wouldn't trade it for a $1,000 cue.
Before I answer, I want to know, do you speak from experience or are you just speculating?
The reason I know what I know is because I've experimented. I also know how to put together a cue, so those principal fundamentals manifest a totally different reality than someone who doesn't know how to build cues.
I have not hit a SW, but I own a Schon and have owned several other cues. The 314-2 I had was a uniloc and I tried it on a number of different cues. Lucasi, old DP, predator, and they were all different. I also had a radial pin shaft that was old growth and I put it on a newer DP and it hit like crap compared to my Pete Petree. I have an OB-1 and I put it on my Schon, and it hit pretty good even though I hate OB. I put that same shaft on an Eliminator SP and it was crap.
Now, the difference in the hit with the predator or OB was not much, but it is just the way the overall cue played. Weight distribution has a lot to do with it. I think the joint also has a good deal to do with it. An ivory joint plays day and night different compared to a SS joint or a big bolt.
As I have said before, the experienced player can detect variances in extremely small increments. If I have a 12.9 shaft in my hands I can tell it is just too big for me. If I have a 12.75mm shaft in my hands, I can tell that it is just right. Now, that is a pretty small difference to tell even with calipers, but I can tell and it that little bit makes a big difference to me. Take that small increment of difference and apply that to ring count, wood density, weight, age, seasoning process plus a whole lot of other factors, and you might just want to reconsider what exactly it is you're trying to prove.
Think of it this way. The shaft and more in particular, the tip and ferrule is the antennae. The butt is the speaker or headphones in terms of reception and feedback. To a player who has been playing for quite some time, I have no problem making shots. I would rather enjoy the hit of my cue with a combination of a good old fashioned maple shaft wood and matching butt than just go out and get a LD shaft hooked up to a generic butt. For some, though, if that floats your boat, I say go for it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Everyone is different, and there are so many variables as to why people use what they use.
Getting to know your cue is the underlying factor in all this.
I say, as long as your happy with it, you can't go wrong.
I tried this theory out a while back. I have a steel jointed fancy Scruggs purple heart sneaky, and I tried the shaft on an old Falcon, My buddies Carter, and my Joss. The result was nothing came close to the same hit or feel as my original purple heart butt. Those cue play great, but they could not compare to the Scruggs. So I'd say the butt makes more like 40% of the hit, imo.
Joe
Joe
It's all over the place
Joe,
The numbers really depend on the cue. I read the percentages earlier and they might be a decent rule of thumb, they certainly aren't true on a case by case basis. Go from a standard Elkmaster to a phenolic and the tip makes a huge difference in feel. Go from one medium hardness tip to another of very near the same hardness and the tip will seem to matter little. Turn a shaft down a little too small and it goes from a decent hit to spaghetti in about one mm. Joints and butts likewise really depend.
I do agree that the tip is generally the most critical component and the further you get back from the tip the less important in general each component is. However if any component is way out of line with the rest of the cue it becomes the tail that wags the dog. Go from a standard bumper to one of the two or three ounce knobs and the bumper is the most important part of the cue concerning hit or at least that is what the person trying to play with that cue will think! :grin:
Hu
Joe,
The numbers really depend on the cue. I read the percentages earlier and they might be a decent rule of thumb, they certainly aren't true on a case by case basis. Go from a standard Elkmaster to a phenolic and the tip makes a huge difference in feel. Go from one medium hardness tip to another of very near the same hardness and the tip will seem to matter little. Turn a shaft down a little too small and it goes from a decent hit to spaghetti in about one mm. Joints and butts likewise really depend.
I do agree that the tip is generally the most critical component and the further you get back from the tip the less important in general each component is. However if any component is way out of line with the rest of the cue it becomes the tail that wags the dog. Go from a standard bumper to one of the two or three ounce knobs and the bumper is the most important part of the cue concerning hit or at least that is what the person trying to play with that cue will think! :grin:
Hu
Consider this, SW is famous for their hit.
If they took down .020" from the bottom of the forearm and .020" from the bottom of the buttsleeve , do you think they would still be famous for their hit?
I bet not.
What if they started using cheap reject maple as handles in their cues?
Cheaper and softer epoxy?
Nylon collar instead of phenolics?
If they took down .020" from the bottom of the forearm and .020" from the bottom of the buttsleeve , do you think they would still be famous for their hit?
I bet not.
What if they started using cheap reject maple as handles in their cues?
Cheaper and softer epoxy?
Nylon collar instead of phenolics?
I hear what you are saying Hu, there are many factors involved, but because I used the same shaft on all the cues, that pretty much narrowed it down to the butts of the cues. It may be possible that if i changed the bumber or any of the other things that the hit would have improved, but that still proves that the butt is a vital part of the hit and feel of a cue. You were 100% right earlier when you said its all about the resonance.
Joe
in your testing it was clearly the butts
Joe,
In your testing it was clearly the butts. Different cues it will be different things though. That is why I hate copying a shaft with the player hoping the new one will play exactly the same as the old one. If the player has a pretty loose idea of what "exactly the same" is he might be thrilled with the shaft. If he is one of those guys that are really sensitive to his equipment he is going to quickly decide he likes one shaft better than the other. If it is the one I just made, great I am a hero and a master smith. If he just paid for a new shaft that "isn't as good as his old one" in his perception, he isn't going to be real happy!
You can count grain, do what you want, and there is no guarantees that two shafts will play what I even consider close to the same. The highly scientific and laboratory proven boing test usually works best to match woods for shafts. :grin: :grin-square: :grin:
Hu
Joe,
In your testing it was clearly the butts. Different cues it will be different things though. That is why I hate copying a shaft with the player hoping the new one will play exactly the same as the old one. If the player has a pretty loose idea of what "exactly the same" is he might be thrilled with the shaft. If he is one of those guys that are really sensitive to his equipment he is going to quickly decide he likes one shaft better than the other. If it is the one I just made, great I am a hero and a master smith. If he just paid for a new shaft that "isn't as good as his old one" in his perception, he isn't going to be real happy!
You can count grain, do what you want, and there is no guarantees that two shafts will play what I even consider close to the same. The highly scientific and laboratory proven boing test usually works best to match woods for shafts. :grin: :grin-square: :grin:
Hu
I agree, but if the customer has any common sense, he will know its not your fault. It seems to me from reading your posts on here since I have been on AZ, I would believe that you would give no less than 100% effort in making anything. I would not blame a cuemaker if he could not match my cue exactly, but Im sure there are those that would.
Joe