Call shot Call safe Bad for the Sport

itsfroze said:
Bad for pool boring for the viewers (call shot call safe bad idea) if their going to do that then why (not no more jump sticks or jumping) learn to kick that won't happen because the fans love to see jump shots and the industry makes money off of selling jump sticks.
You're taking a game that could and should be exciting 10-Ball and making it more into a moving game that unless you're a die hard fan it won't be exciting just like One-Pocket isn't for the masses.
Equally as bad in my opinion is this 10ft table and pockets so tight you don't see hardly any packages fad. When you have clueless amateurs saying they're not that good they aren't running out much they're not much better than me it doesn't help the sport. The pros need to play on the same size tables as the regular players (41/4 inch pockets) other wise they just can't relate, they have no clue how much harder a ten foot table is. Not to mention pool room owners aren't going to start putting them back in the rooms they just finished taking them out recently, why because nobody played on them for the most part and they just sat there taking up to much room. So if they do use 10 footers in a tournament where are the pros going to find one to practice on anyway. Oh, I forgot their is so much money in pool the pros can just fly some where and stay in a motel for a week to get some practice on a TEN FOOTER, right. Not a good idea for the sport to grow!
It needs to be about what the fans want to see, not what the players want if pool is to survive.
Mark Wilson was even saying that they should take the push possibility after the break out of the game because it was to hard to explain to the masses. Having said that what will an amateur player or fan think when watching 10-Ball and player a shoots and misses and player b tells him to shoot again, which they most likely can't hear even (players aren't mic'd usually) and they see player a getting up to shoot again even though they just missed. That scenario is just a tad more confusing than the push after the break, just saying.
Yes I went off a little but these are a few things that have been bothering me, I hate to see things that are being done that I think are pushing this sport in a wrong direction. This sport can't afford it.
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Excellent post. Pro pool is continuing to dog it by ignoring what the fans want and enjoy and focusing on the needs of player who don't even know what they want and change their minds frequently. As Jay Helfert has often pointed out, no matter the rules, no matter the format, no matter the race length, the cream will rise to the top, and I totally agree.

The disenfranchisement of pool's fans has been in full swing for years now, and there's no evidence that the tide will trun anytime soon.

PS I'd keep the push option after the break because it's the way all amateurs play the game.
 
Why dont you play 9 ball with one extra ball then??


10 Ball is 10 Ball and has its own separate set of rules so whats wrong with that??

When I first saw 10 Ball (2000ish) I tired it and hated it. I said, "Screw this im gonna just play 9 Ball!!" After all this time 10 ball has grown on me and I rather get beat by a called shot than fluke BS (happens a lot in 9 ball :rolleyes:) that lesser players hit!!
 
itsfroze said:
Equally as bad in my opinion is this 10ft table and pockets so tight you don't see hardly any packages fad. When you have clueless amateurs saying they're not that good they aren't running out much they're not much better than me it doesn't help the sport. The pros need to play on the same size tables as the regular players (41/4 inch pockets for the pros I think keeps them honest) other wise they just can't relate, they have no clue how much harder a ten foot table, or a 4" or 41/8" pocket table plays.
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The local room I play at has two 9' Diamonds with 4" corner pockets now. I've played on them three times and I can already see that I'm adjusting to it. I was sort of against pockets this tight before I played on one but I have an open mind about it. I'm waiting to see if after a period of adjustment I can play the same kind of shots I did with 4.5" pockets.

I played once on a ten footer not too long ago and I don't see a lot of difference. I think they've been overhyped in terms of difficulty.
 
RunoutJJ said:
Why dont you play 9 ball with one extra ball then??


10 Ball is 10 Ball and has its own separate set of rules so whats wrong with that??
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Or... just play 9-ball?

Personally, I like call-shot, call-safe games.
 
The average person who plays pool socially a few times a year has no clue about 10-Ball as a game. They have never heard of it. Most such people kinda know about 9-Ball because of watching it on ESPN. Other games such as 14.1 and 1 Pocket are also out of the realm of understanding for nearly all social players. 8-Ball is the game of choice for EVERYONE that plays socially. Its the easiest game to be understood by the general public. And therefore it should be the game played by the professional player.

That decision would help to strengthen the connection between the playing public and the professional players.

When social players move to being dedicated players by joining a league they continue to play 8-Ball and then learn about other games to be played. But all leagues build their base and continue to grow by using the game of 8-Ball to connect with everyone.

Therefore 8-Ball should be the professional game of choice for both the men and women. That would go along way towards building a stronger level of interest with the general public.
 
bring back 6-ball

-no safeties
-no ball in hand
-spot shots from the kitchen
-last game = no pay :grin:
 
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itsfroze said:
quote:
I was sort of against pockets this tight before I played on one but I have an open mind about it. I'm waiting to see if after a period of adjustment I can play the same kind of shots I did with 4.5" pockets.
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Good luck with that playing the same kind of shots as on a 4.5 pocket table, even the best in the world can't, so I don't expect that you can.
I mean nothing against you or your ability when saying this.
Do I think it will help your game, yes.

But there are many shots that would be exciting to a fan that the pros certainly know how to play but don't even think about playing on the super tight pockets, that's bad for the game.

Yes you will get better playing on those tables but to do that you will tighten your game up and become more and more conservative in your style of play.

Translation less and less exciting to the viewer
Do the fans or the average players understand any of this, NO, do they care to, same answer.

Trying to make the game harder and harder for the players with these rules, the bigger tables or tighter and tighter pockets is ludicrous. One doesn't create more interest in the pros by bringing their level of play down to get the pros and the amateurs closer in level of play or the appearance their of to the viewers, but the widening of the gap in skill level. Now in no way am I saying there isn't a big difference but to do anything to even give the appearance that it's not huge, to the untrained eye or less knowledgeable player or fans/viewers is cutting your collective throats
as that is the audience and always will be for the most part.

There are hard core fans at every sporting event, but in no way do they constitute the majority. Most are just there to see the stars and have a good time a night out, or a day at the ball park, and maybe get an autograph. They don't give a rats *ss how hard the scoring conditions are, they want to see the stars shine. If it's a close match or game that's just icing on the cake.

If they go to watch a pool match or view it on TV (if it was on TV of coarse) and they keep seeing the players miss or hang balls, or because the players know it's a low percentage shot (in the super tight pockets) so they don't even try it and they play safe. They are going to walk away, go back home and say it wasn't very exciting and they didn't play very well if somebody asks. They're not going to say they played good considering the super tough conditions are you feeling me on this. Not great PR for the sport, and even though the pros are so accessible to the public after seeing what they think is a lack luster performance their probably also going to pass on that autograph too, as their walking away saying their not so good I ran two racks of 8-Ball in league just last week. WOW does that sound familiar to anyone, it probably does, but should you hear that comparison, certainly not because we're putting a so called dampening device on the pros in their playing conditions and the rules. I don't hear these comparisons at sporting events that bring in money, that's something to question, perhaps. Hell even alternate breaks need to really be looked at. A pro player trains for years to achieve that top gear, where they, it seems, they just can't miss. HOW EXCITING IS THAT

So once the pros achieved this level of play we're going to say hey slow down, you can only run one rack then you have to sit down and give your opponent a chance to catch up. That's like telling a jockey you can only let your horse that's built and bred for speed only gallop for five lengths then hold them back and wait for the other horses to catch up lol.

Or you might tell a baseball team that even though they are down 7 runs and have great hitters who take batting practice and work with hitting coaches all the time that they can only bat around once, even though they are still two runs down and there's only one out, that they have to go back out into the field and let the other team bat.

How do you think the fans of these sports would like that, we in pool have to ask what is the purpose of a certain rule or guideline and is it in the BEST INTEREST OF THE FANS, which in turn is in the best interest of the game.

This is akin to lowering the top speed in an auto race to 80 MPH because the drivers want it that way because it's safer great, but not so conducive for great viewing!

Maybe they could cut the Ice Hockey goal size in half this way the goalie could take up most of the mouth of the goal and make it harder to score. And stop the fights all together in Hockey, LOL.
Wow what a great idea huh, surprised they haven't done this already!

Hey why don't they move the outfield walls further back and put ten ft walls along the base lines that would make it harder to score in baseball then. The owners make millions and so do the players, so I'm sure that they can afford it. Maybe they'll try that next year!

Just like the pool room owners can afford to take out two 9 ft. tables so they can put one 10ft. table in, so what if they lose money because they are only collecting one hourly rate instead of two. That's of coarse if anyone is even playing on the ten footer. (good chance they will be losing two table rates if history means anything, they took the 10 ft. tables out for a reason in the first place) The room owners are making money hand over fist, so that shouldn't be a problem, SHOULD IT????????

Sorry to say but most room owners don't even have decent sets of balls to play with much less keep the tables recovered, leveled, and in good playing shape. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll tell you that you play in one of the top 5% of rooms! So most of you won't be saying I'm wrong, I guess.

Right now pool appears as a bunch of ants, till somebody drops a few grains of sugar here and there and everyone starts running in different directions trying to get some until the sugars gone, with nothing accomplished except the sugars gone, once again. Like watching a bad rerun all over again!

So that's what we're up against basically, the question is which way do we go. It seems to me we have to go with what makes a fan a fan, and what keeps the game exciting for them. If you use this as a base line I find it makes the questions we have to ask and the answers we need to formulate with a lot clearer, as in what direction to take.

Maybe instead of trying to get pool to where it needs to be, which seems to many, to be a moving target, we need to
figure out WHAT POOL NEEDS TO BE, FOR THE SPECTATORS, then try to formulate a way to get it there!
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So there've been some videotaped matches recently with tighter pockets and some spectators were disappointed with the level of play but did the players have enough time with a table set up that way to adjust to it? I'm guessing probably not. You might be surprised how well they play if they always play on tighter pockets.

You have some good points, the same ones I've made before, about tighter pockets possibly resulting in just tighter play. But I'm reserving judgement about that for a while.

And if you want to talk to me anymore you have to spot me six paragraphs.
 
itsfroze said:
qoute:
I rather get beat by a called shot than fluke BS (happens a lot in 9 ball ) that lesser players hit!!
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That's it in a nut shell. please don't take this in the wrong way.
It's not about what you want or don't want, that's really unimportant. What is important is that the fluking in of a ball is exciting to the viewers, it's unexpected, it sudden, and it could change the entire out come of the match! It also doesn't happen that often with pro players as compared to the amateurs.

Let me give you an example in football. The quarterback throws a pass to player #36, he doesn't catch the pass however it bounces off of his helmet and the defensive player catches it and he runs for a touch down.
And they win the game with minutes left only.

The fans go wild the excitement in the stadium you could cut with a knife, and that lucky play makes every highlight reel for a week.

Great PR for the game and the league would never in their wildest dreams think of changing the rules to take this luck out of the game.

The players on the losing team make a stink about it, but no one listens,
their only whining because they lost.

THAT IS WHAT THEY DO IN A SPORT THAT THRIVES!

IN POOL WE SEE THIS AND DO THE OPPOSITE======GO FIGURE
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Yeahhhhhh Im gonna have to disagree...



office-space-boss1.jpg


Football is a really bad example aswell. I mean they cheat by running out the clock like a bunch of pansys!!! They should be forced to play the ball and not be able to run out the clock!! Anything could happen (fumble or interception) that could change the outcome of the game.

Yeahhhhh dont like football much...
 
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8 ball might be the most popular game socially, but how many people at the bars know how to play it, as defined in the BCA rulebook? To them, you have to call the shot, pocket, and any carom that is played, and if you ask them about BIH, you get a crazy WTF look lol.

The push out after the break in 9 ball is not that hard to learn, anybody with half a brain can figure it out after some practice.

I'm trying to figure out what makes snooker so popular overseas, and what can we do here in the U.S. to replicate that success in pool. Snooker is a great game, very challenging.
 
in my opinion pool will never be a mainstream sport again. Because of this there is no point in playing games that the average joe can understand. I would rather watch a game where the difference in skill is magnified. Watching pros running racks gets old pretty quickly, because you know the other guy can do the same thing. I run a three pack on a brunswick ( not to say it's an amazing thing, but I believe is decent) and I'm a banger lol
 
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itsfroze said:
Bad for pool boring for the viewers (call shot call safe bad idea) if their going to do that then why (not no more jump sticks or jumping) learn to kick that won't happen because the fans love to see jump shots and the industry makes money off of selling jump sticks.

You're taking a game that could and should be exciting 10-Ball and making it more into a moving game that unless you're a die hard fan it won't be exciting just like One-Pocket isn't for the masses.

Equally as bad in my opinion is this 10ft table and pockets so tight you don't see hardly any packages fad. When you have clueless amateurs saying they're not that good they aren't running out much they're not much better than me it doesn't help the sport. The pros need to play on the same size tables as the regular players (41/4 inch pockets for the pros I think keeps them honest) other wise they just can't relate, they have no clue how much harder a ten foot table, or a 4" or 41/8" pocket table plays.

Not to mention pool room owners aren't going to start putting them (10 footers) back in the rooms they just finished taking them out not that many years ago, why because nobody played on them for the most part and they just sat there taking up to much room. Hello is anybody home, pool rooms are closing and they are trending more to taking out 9 ft. tables and adding bar box's, they are hardly thinking of putting 10 footers in. They are much more likely to take out a whole row of 9 ft. tables and put in a bar or snack bar.

So what I'm asking is where did this brilliant idea come from, and just how brilliant is it? So if they do use 10 footers in a tournament where are the pros going to find one to practice on anyway. Oh, I forgot their is so much money in pool the pros can just fly some where and stay in a motel for a week to get some practice on a TEN FOOTER, right. Not a good idea for the sport to grow!

It needs to be about what the fans want to see, not what the players want if pool is to survive.
Mark Wilson was even saying that they should take the push possibility after the break out of the game because it was to hard to explain to the masses. Having said that what will an amateur player or fan think when watching 10-Ball, and player a shoots and misses and player b tells him to shoot again, which they most likely can't hear even (players aren't mic'd usually) and they see player a getting up to shoot again even though they just missed.

That scenario is just a tad more confusing than the push after the break, just saying.
Yes I went off a little but these are a few things that have been bothering me, I hate to see things being done that I think are pushing this sport in a wrong direction. This sport can't afford it.
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berneydidnotread.gif
 
Raider510 said:
I'm trying to figure out what makes snooker so popular overseas, and what can we do here in the U.S. to replicate that success in pool. Snooker is a great game, very challenging.
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Slh said:
in my opinion pool will never be a mainstream sport again. Because of this there is no point in playing games that the average joe can understand. I would rather watch a game where the difference in skill is magnified.
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:confused:
 
I say call pocket, any miss results in BIH for incoming player.

Total offense only. I want to see the ball banked, cut backwards, kicked in, caromed.

Bring on the harrigan.
 
itsfroze said:
qoute:The Wide world of Sports----- "The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat"
Lady luck plays a roll in this, and should. Billy Incardona said once that you can sterilize a game to the point that it becomes boring to the fans. Hello 10-Ball in it's current state.
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You're forgetting that pool became unpopular on 9-ball's watch. 10-ball can't make it any worse.

Pool is a game for people who actually play the game unlike football, baseball, etc. It will always have a relatively small fan base.

As mentioned above- why is snooker so much more successful in Europe than pool is here? A sport can be successful without the wall to wall coverage of football.
 
snooker and pool are totally different games. and the only reason why snooker is succesfull in europe is because its a national sport which is not the case for pool.
hell, you can even watch darts premier league every week and there more supporters in that room then livestream watchers during a TAR match
 
bender_lu said:
snooker and pool are totally different games. and the only reason why snooker is succesfull in europe is because its a national sport which is not the case for pool.
hell, you can even watch darts premier league every week and there more supporters in that room then livestream watchers during a TAR match
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Why is snooker a national sport in Europe?
 
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