can mosconi's high run be beat'n?

Think Eagle's got it.

Though equipment might be part of it, mostly I think it's that you need both the highest skill and a fair amount of luck.

Every time you break the balls, go into a cluster with any force, are forced to take a shot that's less than 100%, bank a ball... you're flipping a coin.

On that run, every time Mosconi was forced to take a gamble, it worked out. Like flipping heads 20 times in a row. Someone else might do that, but there probably aren't more than a dozen guys on earth who are even qualified to flip that coin. And they're not working day and night at it, some of them aren't even trying.
 
If Cory was motivated to do it and figures a few things out with straight pool, he may crush it. Even on a modern day diamond....

I personaly think John Schmidt could do it within a reasoable amount of time on similar equipment to what Willie used. The first time I seen John hit a ball was he was practicing straight pool in Columbus, GA in 2001 on a fairly tough 8' Brunswick. I think John's best straight pool might be played on the 8'er, most SP players can not say that...
 
I don't think it will ever happen the way pool has changed in the past 50 years. The opportunity is gone.

1. As many others have stated, straight pool is done as a daily game for the pros. They all had their chance in the 60's through 80's, when it was still the dominate game, and couldn't do it.

2. Lots of higher "unconfirmed" runs during the straight pool heyday, even by Mosconi himself are claimed. So would a "practice run" today have to beat 526, or a higher number?
 
I would like to hear Earl's thoughts about this record :smile:

I believe Earl was a member here years ago and talked about his straight pool game in a few posts. I might be mixing this memory up with another player, however. It must have been 10 years ago...
 
There are people who can run 100 balls , also a much smaller group that can run 200 then there are the select few who have run 300 and a very small number have run 400 plus. Just because someone runs 200 it does not mean they can run 400.
It is not twice as hard to run 400 as it is 200 it is incredibly more difficult.At least thats what George Rood told me and his high run was 360 or 370 something.
I would like to know after all the years they have had the straight pool challenge at the DCC what the highest run ever recorded there was?
The highest I can think of was under 200.
Back in the day guys played 100 no count and some ran 200 almost every day they played but they never put together any 4 or 500s that I have found records of.
To me that means it was not just twice as hard, or anywhere in that realm.
 
I think a very significant milestone will be when someone runs 200 and out in a major tournament. It could happen any time.

If AZ will take over the project I will start with $100 for a prize fund for this achievement.

Dave Nelson
 
There are people who can run 100 balls , also a much smaller group that can run 200 then there are the select few who have run 300 and a very small number have run 400 plus. Just because someone runs 200 it does not mean they can run 400.
It is not twice as hard to run 400 as it is 200 it is incredibly more difficult.At least thats what George Rood told me and his high run was 360 or 370 something.
I would like to know after all the years they have had the straight pool challenge at the DCC what the highest run ever recorded there was?
The highest I can think of was under 200.
Back in the day guys played 100 no count and some ran 200 almost every day they played but they never put together any 4 or 500s that I have found records of.
To me that means it was not just twice as hard, or anywhere in that realm.


There is a great article that addresses this in one of hte magazines. (Its reprinted online somewhere for free). I "think" it was by Bob Jewett, who breaks down straight pool runs by probability, and shows something like if a guy can run 30 balls EVERY time he has an open shot, his high run would be 200 (just an example I made up). I think it also went backwards, and if a person had a a high run of 200, they would mathematically be expected to run 30 balls every trip to the table.
 
To me that means it was not just twice as hard, or anywhere in that realm.

Schmidt says the same thing in one of his videos. Something like ...It's not twice as hard to run 400 vs 200, it's like... ten times as hard.

It really is just statistics...

Let's say you play pretty perfect and your hardest shot for any given rack is something you make 90% of the time. At 100, you've taken about 7 of those shots. The odds of shooting all 7 without a miss is only about 48%. For 200 it's about 23%. 400 drops to 5%.

So you could look at it as... 200 is 4x or 5x more likely than 400, if you shoot that that perfectly. If you were shooting 80% shots every rack, then running 200 becomes 22x - 23x more likely than 400.
 
Let Me Clarify Things

I do not want to imply that anyone posting on this thread was being disrespectful of Willie's accomplishments. Heck, that would be a foolhardy undertaking because he truly stands alone.

And as JB commented, indoor air conditioning was around in the 50's. But let me set things straight....I lived in the 50's and was raised in Brooklyn, NY. If you made $100 a week in the 50's, your were doing really good. Not many people did back then but my point is air conditioning for most people was not affordable. And rest assured when you went barn storming on some nation-wide tour exhibition like Willie & Ralph used to do as a duo, the towns you played in were not exactly a metropolis. Ergo, when you travelled in the hinterlands like Willie did, the pools halls were not plosh locations. In all probability, air conditioning was a rare treat in its early years.

Nonetheless, what Willie did in aggregate has remained untouchable. The conditions of actual play are pretty much unknown to all of us because we weren't there. But I was born in '46 and I remember vividly what it was like growing up at that time. And my dad made more than a $100 bucks a week on his job and we didn't get air conditioning until the early 60's. And my dad wasn't cheap and we lived in a major city too. So I can't imagine what it was for people living in Springville, Missourri or Macon, Georgia because those size cities were stops for the Brunswick touring pros.

It would be a thrill to see someone challenge or break Mosconi's record of 526 balls. But the one thing that most posting here have not given sufficient credit to is Willie's records achieved playing on a 5'x10' pool table. I think that's because many may never have played much on a 5'x10' venue. I played growing up as a teenager on 10' tables and when Brunswick introduced the 9' tables to make playing pool more friendly for the recreational player, 10' tables became a dying breed. More 9' tables could be squeezed into a pool hall than 10' tables and the end of the 10' tables was inevitable.

So before I would ever crown someone a player equal to Willie, that person would have to exceed Willie's tournament performance numbers because after all, they'd be playing on a 9' table which basically is analagous to what Willie did on that 8' table when he pockted 526 balls consecutively. Let's see how many players today could run over 100 balls on a 10' table in tournament play for the US Championship (lots of pressure and the strongest field imaginable). Willie made it seem easy and I can't imagine how more dominating he'd have been if he always played on the smaller 9' tables versus the monster 10' tables.

If you get the opportunity to ever play on a 10' table, see how you fare versus your typical practice sessions on a 9' table. Don't be surprised if a curse word or two doesn't enter your conversation about playing on a 10' table. Everything becomes harder, especially cue ball position control. So that's where I think comparing Willie to today's modern players will always be wanton and suspect.

But let me clear, I do not think anyone posting was showing disrespect for Willie. But I don't think they were giving Mosconi the added respect he deserves. They're overlooking that he mainly played on a bigger table back in the day when he dominated the pool world, played herculean matches to win the US Championship (often involving more than a dozen matches in several cities to reach 2500 points), beating all of his opponents several times in round robin play, and usually crushing the final opponent.

Now Willie had off days too and was knocked out of some tournaments played before World War II but don't be mistaken or confused, this was rarely happened to him. There's lots of fabled stories about Willie. How about the time he and Minnesota Fats played .......it never happened. Willie and Minnesota "NEVER" played for money or ever played each other in the US Championship or any other tournament either, The only time they played was as exhibition on ABC Wide World of Sports and Minnesota Fats never beat Mosconi in any match. Willie offered to play Minnesota for any amount of money, even offerring to play him for $100,000 but the Fats always ducked playing Willie and never accepted the challenge. Yet Fats would boast and brag about how those pro players could never beat a hustler like him because they didn't have the game to beat him........DUH?

I think Willie was truly unique, a genuine gentleman, and most of all, a gifted pool player that the world may never see again. He stands alone and heads above everyone else. At elast that's how I see things.

Matt B.
 
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... Just maintaing FOCUS for...what...5-6 HOURS...and not screwing the pooch along the way is RARE. ...

In his autobiography, Willie said the run of 526 took 2 hours and 10 minutes, for an average of about 4 balls per minute.
 
In his autobiography, Willie said the run of 526 took 2 hours and 10 minutes, for an average of about 4 balls per minute.

THANKS for that correction. I'm just curious. Was that TOTAL ELAPSED time from his first of 526 to his last? I was assuming time taken up by racking etc.

But it is AMAZING that the man could keep his FOCUS at world championship levels even for 130 minutes!!!
 
THANKS for that correction. I'm just curious. Was that TOTAL ELAPSED time from his first of 526 to his last? I was assuming time taken up by racking etc. ...

The book does not say, but I doubt that anyone (and certainly not Willie) was timing the racking times and deducting them from the total elapsed time. Willie played quickly, so 4 balls per minute including racking sounds reasonable to me.
 
His whole career

Willie was always known to be a very fast player. I recall there was one top pro Willie played who tried to get into Willie's game. It's mentioned in Willie's autobiography. I believe it was Ralph Greenleaf who tried to slow play Willie during one of their many matches.

He knew Willie had a temper and liked to play fast. Well, all it did was irritate Willie which wasn't a smart move. Willie beat him so badly that after the match, Ralph walked over to the wall in the Grand Ballroom of the hotel where the match was held.

Ralph pounded his head into the wall out of sheer frustration over what had happened. He thought he could inside Willie's head and all he learned is that a pissed off rattlesnake tends to bite even faster than a just a lethargic one.

p.s. Ralph never attempted to slow play Willie again.
 
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The book does not say, but I doubt that anyone (and certainly not Willie) was timing the racking times and deducting them from the total elapsed time. Willie played quickly, so 4 balls per minute including racking sounds reasonable to me.

Gotcha. THANKS!

(-:

EagleMan
 
Willie was always known to be a very fast player. I recall there was one top pro Willie played who tried to get into Willie's game. It's mentioned in Willie's autobiography. I believe it was Ralph Greenleaf who tried to slow play Willie during one of their many matches.

He knew Willie had a temper and liked to play fast. Well, all it did was irritate Willie which wasn't a smart move. Willie beat him so badly that after the match, Ralph walked over to the wall in the Grand Ballroom of the hotel where the match was held.

Ralph pounded his head into the wall out of sheer frustration over what had happened. He thought he could inside Willie's head and all he learned that is a pissed off rattlesnake tends to bite even faster than a just a lethargic one.

p.s. Ralph never attempted to slow play Willie again.

Interesting story. THANKS. Of course Willie virtually learned the game playing/touring with Greanleaf. If I recall the biography...which I haven't read in years...Willie gives Ralph a lot of credit.

They played 107 matches together during the "Brunswick Exibition Tour" and the final score was Greanleaf 57, Mosconi 50....BUT Willie was only 20 years old. But FOR SURE Willie learned a massive amount about the game playing against a man who some people think would have been the greatest of all time had he not been "beaten by the bottle."

And my guess is that Greanleaf was slow-playing less as a sharking move and more likely because he was dead drunk which...sadly...he was a lot of the time.

Here's a brief video (1945) in one of the Mosconi/Greanleaf exibitions. Watch Willie drilling wing shots...both ways on fairly tight pockets!

(-:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/billiards-champ-entertains

EagleMan
 
Simple answer is NO! If it could be beat it would have been beaten and recorded already. Who ever that person is some day, that does beat Willie's record, will become an overnight celebrity and instant pool legend!
 
Simple answer is NO! If it could be beat it would have been beaten and recorded already. Who ever that person is some day, that does beat Willie's record, will become an overnight celebrity and instant pool legend!

Not really. It will bring forth a big ho-hum.

Dave Nelson
 
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