Can someone help me understand the thought process behind these requests?

[jimmyg]

Maybe my thinking is totally off base and "professional" pool players are more special than their counterparts in other sports. But, with few exceptions I cannot think of too many sports that pay their competitors to compete in their tournaments. Their corporate "sponsors" may pay for them, but not the sanctioning body nor the tournament itself.

In fact, I know of many tennis competitors who travel to national tournaments paying their own expenses and costs. There's even entry fees that the top pros have to pay for entry into the grand slams.

So, what am I missing here?

J

 

[SJDinPHX]

The saying great minds think alike comes to mind regarding this post. I basically said the same thing in my response to CreeDo but I do think it could work if sponsors were willing to take the risk and it was profitable for the players.

160 posts of differing opinions, and even a few insults thrown in ! (as is the norm)...The bottom line is, there is NO answer to your original question !..Almost all knowledgeable poster's are aware that 'Pool tournaments', are rarely, if ever a profitable venture for either the promoter, OR the player !..As Greg S. himself said, our best event (DCC) is just an advertising vehicle for him..(and Simonis, Kamuui, etc.)...He is tickled to death, if he breaks even every year !

Until such time as that changes, (if it ever does) it's impossible to compute the value of these threads...There seems to be at least one a week, and they have become very similar to "aiming system" threads !...NOTHING is ever remotely resolved !
...But, kudos for trying..

SJD <--Is glad I got my playing time in BEFORE there were tournaments..Life was simpler then ! :smile:

 

[kvinbrwr]

160 posts of differing opinions, and even a few insults thrown in ! (as is the norm)...The bottom line is, there is NO answer to your original question !..Almost all knowledgeable poster's are aware that 'Pool tournaments', are rarely, if ever a profitable venture for either the promoter, OR the player !

Until such time as that changes, (if it ever does) it's impossible to compute the value of these threads...There seems to be at least one a week, and they have become very similar to "aiming system" threads !...NOTHING is ever remotely resolved !...But, kudos for trying..

SJD <--Is glad I got my playing time in BEFORE there were tournaments..Life was simpler then ! :smile:

Dick

You got it. Promoters make no money (or lose) and end up hating the players and the fans because of it. The promoters penny-pinch and that feels cheap to the players. The players penny-pinch and that feels ungrateful to the promoters.

I'd say the fans suffer for this, but that's the crux of this biscuit, there are no fans.

Its the lack of fans that kill all these ventures. Lack of fans means lack of revenue. Its the lack of revenue that makes everyone involved act cheap, and its those cheap actions anger everyone involved.

The solution? Come up with a product people want to pay to see. And there's the tough part. Until there's a marketable product, its squeezing blood from a stone.

For some amount of time I think its possible to draw new sponsors in and fund your promotions that way. However, to get any real money involved, you are going to be asked by the sponsor to prove how many people were exposed to their brand and all pool ventures fail at that point. Otherwise, you are asking for charity.

The deep-pockets guy that promoted the big 9-Ball Tourney that lasted what 2 years came on here to post his swan song and blamed everyone but himself for the failure of his venture. He had no crowds of fans, he had no promotion to raise fans.

The last time I saw a Pool Tourney advertised in major media was the LA Open in the 90s. I saw that ad in the LA Times, wasn't playing pool at that time and went and that looked like a super-well attended event.

I will tell you if your marketing strategy is going to be to start a thread here at AZ Billiards, your "success" will be limited.

Kevin

 

[Jaden]

Here's my take on it.

The players that are worth covering their expenses are far more likely to place high in the tournament, so it becomes a catch 22, should they get their expenses paid over other players who aren't as likely?

I could see, maybe offering to setup expenses that would be subtracted from any winnings that they receive, but beyond that, I wouldn't see the added benefit of doing it.

Jaden

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Maybe my thinking is totally off base and "professional" pool players are more special than their counterparts in other sports. But, with few exceptions I cannot think of too many sports that pay their competitors to compete in their tournaments. Their corporate "sponsors" may pay for them, but not the sanctioning body nor the tournament itself.

In fact, I know of many tennis competitors who travel to national tournaments paying their own expenses and costs. There's even entry fees that the top pros have to pay for entry into the grand slams.

So, what am I missing here?

J

The part that in other sports the players get sponsors that have a meaningful impact to their participation in their field.

 

[jimmyg]

The part that in other sports the players get sponsors that have a meaningful impact to their participation in their field.

Okay. Now, why do sponsors avoid professional pool and it's players?

Maybe we can figure out this dilemma. :wink:

J

 

[kvinbrwr]

Okay. Now, why do sponsors avoid professional pool and it's players?

Maybe we can figure out this dilemma. :wink:

J

Sponsors avoid pro pool because pro pool provides no exposure for the sponsors branding.

 

[jimmyg]

Sponsors avoid pro pool because pro pool provides no exposure for the sponsors branding.

If that is true, and I believe that it is, then who can blame the potential sponsors from avoiding participation? No one wants to fish in an empty pond.

So, I repeat:

Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Maybe my thinking is totally off base and "professional" pool players are more special than their counterparts in other sports. But, with few exceptions I cannot think of too many sports that pay their competitors to compete in their tournaments. Their corporate "sponsors" may pay for them, but not the sanctioning body nor the tournament itself.

In fact, I know of many tennis competitors who travel to national tournaments paying their own expenses and costs. There's even entry fees that the top pros have to pay for entry into the grand slams.

So, what am I missing here?

J

 

[BasementDweller]

I don't think Option No. 3 would be worthy of consideration. I can just envision a player giving it their all, playing their herat out, coming in 3rd place, and the third place monies cover their hotel, entry fee, and expenses. They end up leaving the tournament with empty pockets.

Some may think this is okay, but most people who shoot pool on a regular basis may not think this option is a good one for them.

Remember, at most tournaments, a player must come in first, second, or third place to break even with expenses. Therein likes the rub.

Not worthy of consideration???

That's sort of funny. Here's how I picture the phone call between the pro player and the promoter:

Promoter: Hey, pro how you doing today?
Player: Great.
Promoter: I see you are interested in playing in my tournament. I'll tell you what; I am willing to pay all of your expenses for this event, provided that if you place, those expenses come off the top of your winning. If you don’t place you don’t have to pay anything back. We really wish we could do more for you at this time, but by doing this you are at least guaranteed to have your expenses covered. So what do you think?
Player: To be honest, that's not even really worth considering. Can you hold on I got another call?
Promoter: Sure
.
.
.
.
Player: I'm back...now what where you saying? Oh yeah you were talking about covering my expenses. I think I'll pass on that. Thanks.
Promoter: Oh okay. Hope to see you there..
Player: Yeah....I'll probably still come if I can hitch a ride from someone.
Promoter: What??? Oh never mind. Have a good day.
Player: You too. Later

 

[JAM]

Not worthy of consideration???

That's sort of funny. Here's how I picture the phone call between the pro player and the promoter:

Promoter: Hey, pro how you doing today?
Player: Great.
Promoter: I see you are interested in playing in my tournament. I'll tell you what; I am willing to pay all of your expenses for this event, provided that if you place, those expenses come off the top of your winning. If you don’t place you don’t have to pay anything back. We really wish we could do more for you at this time, but by doing this you are at least guaranteed to have your expenses covered. So what do you think?
Player: To be honest, that's not even really worth considering. Can you hold on I got another call?
Promoter: Sure
.
.
.
.
Player: I'm back...now what where you saying? Oh yeah you were talking about covering my expenses. I think I'll pass on that. Thanks.
Promoter: Oh okay. Hope to see you there..
Player: Yeah....I'll probably still come if I can hitch a ride from someone.
Promoter: What??? Oh never mind. Have a good day.
Player: You too. Later

No matter what words I used, "not worthy of consideration" or "not cost effective" or "not feasible" or "not productive" or "not attractive" or "not beneficial to all parties," I can guarantee you that somebody on this forum will dissect the words, find fault, and provide a commentary thereafter ridiculing the intent of the post, ending up meaning something completely different than what was originally intended.

 

[kvinbrwr]

If that is true, and I believe that it is, then who can blame the potential sponsors from avoiding participation? No one wants to fish in an empty pond.

So, I repeat:

Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Maybe my thinking is totally off base and "professional" pool players are more special than their counterparts in other sports. But, with few exceptions I cannot think of too many sports that pay their competitors to compete in their tournaments. Their corporate "sponsors" may pay for them, but not the sanctioning body nor the tournament itself.

In fact, I know of many tennis competitors who travel to national tournaments paying their own expenses and costs. There's even entry fees that the top pros have to pay for entry into the grand slams.

So, what am I missing here?

J

Yeah there is no blaming the sponsors. I mean what's a streamer going to do? Go to Coca-Cola and pitch the fact that there might be 1000 people watching his stream?

Or an event promoter with no stream (and obviously no TV) pitching on the fact that maybe a few hundred people will be at the event and see their logo?

No. Other than charity before you are going to attract an advertiser (which is what sponsors are) you need to have an audience. You can't blame the Networks for not spending money and setting aside time when no sponsors will want to buy ads because nobody will watch.

You either think that if people were given a product to watch that they would (which has been proven time and time again not to be true with pool).

Or you believe that in order to attract a viewership the product has to change. Take a look at poker. Who wanted to watch poker until they tweaked one little thing and let us in on the hole card? One change and all the poker scrapers are suddenly personalities with followings, sponsors and mansions.

Kevin

 

[Sandman]

I aqgree!

Str8tShots...Pay no attention to Hits Em Hard. He is not a pro player, and therefore has no say in your issues. You have done well to get any outside industry sponsorship. To the players who want you to "pay their expenses" to grace you with their presence...TELL THEM TO POUND SAND! The "entitlement attitude" that some of these pros have is astonishing at best, and deplorable at worst. Allen Hopkins has another pro event in Philly around the same time as yours. Do you think he's paying anyone's expenses to come play? NOPE! As far as how much $$$ you choose to add to an event, that is your call. The gigantic majority of cash tournaments in this country add little or nothing. The players are playing for the entry fees. That hasn't changed in 50 years. IF a promoter deems to add some money, how much and how it will be distributed is completely up to them. You don't like the rules...don't play. Simple as that. Best wishes in reaching your goals.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hey Scott, my friend, you hit the nail right on the head but PLEASE.... LEAVE "SAND" OUT OF IT! Thanks! LOL

Kimberly darling, you are doing a GREAT thing and those WORTHY of all your hard efforts will APPRECIATE them. If someone cannot appreciate a great opportunity presented to them, just leave them behind. Very few players in the game have a following or "draw" at this time and therefore have nothing to offer YOU. Don't get me wrong, there are some out there and even THEY don't ask for much and know how to appreciate others efforts for THE GAME and everyone overall and not just their own pitiful selfish worthless selves. If you want to be PAID like a professional, then ACT like a professional. If it is your full-time JOB to play, then YOU as the player are responsible for your OWN transportation to WORK, your own appropriate suit & tie (entry fee) and also your ACTIONS while on the work site. If you don't ABIDE like everyone else PROFESSIONALLY and ACCORDINGLY, don't be surprised if you get sent home for the day, have to meet with Human Resources or even get DOCKED PAY for misbehavior. Be happy YOU HAVE A JOB and learn to APPRECIATE IT! Perhaps if you learned how to MARKET YOURSELF as a professional and present yourself professionally, some CORPORATE SPONSORSHIPS may actually come your way. We must teach the ignorant ones (not all of them are this way) how to "play the game" for the betterment of the sport for EVERYONE to succeed and the GAME to grow.

It's NOT all about YOU! This whole "Me me me" attitude must cease so that POOL can move forward and catch up to Asia, Europe and the Middle East.

Sorry for the CAPS everyone but I only did it on the important parts. LOL

 

[kvinbrwr]

Hey Scott, my friend, you hit the nail right on the head but PLEASE.... LEAVE "SAND" OUT OF IT! Thanks! LOL

Kimberly darling, you are doing a GREAT thing and those WORTHY of all your hard efforts will APPRECIATE them. If someone cannot appreciate a great opportunity presented to them, just leave them behind. Very few players in the game have a following or "draw" at this time and therefore have nothing to offer YOU. Don't get me wrong, there are some out there and even THEY don't ask for much and know how to appreciate others efforts for THE GAME and everyone overall and not just their own pitiful selfish worthless selves. If you want to be PAID like a professional, then ACT like a professional. If it is your full-time JOB to play, then YOU as the player are responsible for your OWN transportation to WORK, your own appropriate suit & tie (entry fee) and also your ACTIONS while on the work site. If you don't ABIDE like everyone else PROFESSIONALLY and ACCORDINGLY, don't be surprised if you get sent home for the day, have to meet with Human Resources or even get DOCKED PAY for misbehavior. Be happy YOU HAVE A JOB and learn to APPRECIATE IT! Perhaps if you learned how to MARKET YOURSELF as a professional and present yourself professionally, some CORPORATE SPONSORSHIPS may actually come your way. We must teach the ignorant ones (not all of them are this way) how to "play the game" for the betterment of the sport for EVERYONE to succeed and the GAME to grow.

It's NOT all about YOU! This whole "Me me me" attitude must cease so that POOL can move forward and catch up to Asia, Europe and the Middle East.

Sorry for the CAPS everyone but I only did it on the important parts. LOL

So you would say its the pros holding pool back?

 

[Sandman]

No, that's not AT ALL what I said. It's poor attitude overall and a poor product to offer the public and mainstream investors and spectators.

 

[kvinbrwr]

No, that's not AT ALL what I said. It's poor attitude overall and a poor product to offer the public and mainstream investors and spectators.

Sorry i was just reading (and reread) and I thought your post was all about the ways the pros behave. I didn't see much about the viability of the product (must have missed that part).

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Sandman]

Yeah there is no blaming the sponsors. I mean what's a streamer going to do? Go to Coca-Cola and pitch the fact that there might be 1000 people watching his stream?

Or an event promoter with no stream (and obviously no TV) pitching on the fact that maybe a few hundred people will be at the event and see their logo?

No. Other than charity before you are going to attract an advertiser (which is what sponsors are) you need to have an audience. You can't blame the Networks for not spending money and setting aside time when no sponsors will want to buy ads because nobody will watch.

You either think that if people were given a product to watch that they would (which has been proven time and time again not to be true with pool).

Or you believe that in order to attract a viewership the product has to change. Take a look at poker. Who wanted to watch poker until they tweaked one little thing and let us in on the hole card? One change and all the poker scrapers are suddenly personalities with followings, sponsors and mansions.

Kevin

I agree with you there Kevin! :thumbup:

 

[JumpinJoe]

Have you ever heard the saying the pot calling the kettle black? Aren't you promoting a tournament the same weekend as Rum Runner? When did you announce your event this year? We announced ours in October. Are you saying it is OK for you all to schedule an event on top of Rum Runner but we shouldn't?

Did your event last year have any impact on Rum Runner? Obviously not and neither did ours. It was still full and had many top name players. Nor were our events impacted by the Rum Runner. All three events were full.

Listen, I don't care if you announced it last year in March. The place to announce it is not where I was told by str8shots it was announced. They said it was announced on Nick Varners Website. I have that in a PM. I'm not making it up. I go by what I was told, I speak the truth, I take no crap from any pros at my events, I shoot it straight. If they don't like it so be it.

Nick does not play, therefore his exhibitions or trick shows or whatever he does should not influence when you set up a tourney date. Other events should. I try and work with , around every event possible.

Also Kimberly, since last year when all 3 events were full, why not settle down and I'm sure they will all feel again. No need to worry.

NOONE READS NICKS SITE BY THE WAY.

 

[JB Cases]

If that is true, and I believe that it is, then who can blame the potential sponsors from avoiding participation? No one wants to fish in an empty pond.

So, I repeat:

Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Maybe my thinking is totally off base and "professional" pool players are more special than their counterparts in other sports. But, with few exceptions I cannot think of too many sports that pay their competitors to compete in their tournaments. Their corporate "sponsors" may pay for them, but not the sanctioning body nor the tournament itself.

In fact, I know of many tennis competitors who travel to national tournaments paying their own expenses and costs. There's even entry fees that the top pros have to pay for entry into the grand slams.

So, what am I missing here?

J

Some pros in other sports demand appearance fees and other perks. There was a German promoter who got into a public spat over Steffi Graf allegedly asking him for a hefty appearance fee in his tournament. Iirc that is.

 

[itsfroze]

Sorry i was just reading (and reread) and I thought your post was all about the ways the pros behave. I didn't see much about the viability of the product (must have missed that part).

Thanks

Kevin

I guess I missed that part too! The post was all about the way the pros behave.

 

[Sandman]

Sorry i was just reading (and reread) and I thought your post was all about the ways the pros behave. I didn't see much about the viability of the product (must have missed that part).

Thanks

Kevin

No apologies necessary my friend but thanks anyway! We all want to see pool return to its glory here in the US as it once was and even better. We ALL need to do our part. Whether it be promoting, sponsoring, organizing, playing, supporting the game, BUYING streams (rather than asking for FREE stuff all the time), BUYING products (rather than wheeling and dealing on the side), BUYING tickets to event to support the venue/promoter/pro players (rather than saying, "I'm not paying to watch someone play pool!"), whatever the case may be, WE ALL must contribute and put $ INTO the game rather than just ask for FREE handouts like bums and leaches sucking every last $ OUT of the game.

That's all. lol I have work to do.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=350958